Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

Can't believe it's 2023 and we're still downplaying Goten and Trunks as if they didn't give Gohan and Vegeta a good training session and Gohan even states Goten could surpass him soon.

And if we're bringing Super into things, Goten and Trunks both handle 2-3 Cell Jrs each without much issue, and it's unlikely they've gotten significantly stronger from the Boo arc. This feat alone puts them ahead of any Cell Games fighter outside of arguably perfect Cell and SS Gohan.

[ZombieVito]

That doesn’t mean they weren’t already stronger than Piccolo though, as the scene of them showing their full power suggest.

Well, I never said Piccolo was stronger. Just that the difference isn't that great since with minimal gains, Piccolo surpassed them.

Can't believe it's 2023 and we're still downplaying Goten and Trunks as if they didn't give Gohan and Vegeta a good training session and Gohan even states Goten could surpass him soon.

And if we're bringing Super into things, Goten and Trunks both handle 2-3 Cell Jrs each without much issue, and it's unlikely they've gotten significantly stronger from the Boo arc. This feat alone puts them ahead of any Cell Games fighter outside of arguably perfect Cell and SS Gohan.

To me it seems the Cell Juniors are toying with them.

[Noah]

Can't believe it's 2023 and we're still downplaying Goten and Trunks as if they didn't give Gohan and Vegeta a good training session and Gohan even states Goten could surpass him soon.

And if we're bringing Super into things, Goten and Trunks both handle 2-3 Cell Jrs each without much issue, and it's unlikely they've gotten significantly stronger from the Boo arc. This feat alone puts them ahead of any Cell Games fighter outside of arguably perfect Cell and SS Gohan.

lol

I remember discussing this a lot on other DB forums in 2008~09, it's really an old topic in the general franchise. I believe most people put Goten and Trunks down because they are brats and they represent goofy and not the dark and edgy they would like Z to be after Cell.

I've done that myself (downplaying the duo)... but nowadays Toriyama himself does it, given the treatment he gave them during a good part of Super.

[Thani]

Vegeta in the Buu arc probably learned to master his SS transformation, catching up to Gohan and Goku (in a way), and he was surprised by Trunks. His son managed to catch him off-guard, but that was about it.

Gohan was rusty, really rusty, and Goten shocked him to no end.

Obviously that level of power should easily put them above androids like 18, so it fits her reaction in the Budokai.

Since neither Trunks nor Goten seemed to have mastered their transformation (unless the idea was dropped in the Buu arc, it wasn't implied nor suggested they did), they should indeed be weaker than Vegeta and Goku (with even rusty Gohan above them). That might as well put them, at the beginning, around the level of Vegeta and Future Trunks during the Cell Games.

But then... they trained in the RoSaT. Twice. It wasn't said how strong they've gotten with the training, but it had to be considerable. Gotenks himself became exponentially stronger, after all.

In the manga, the kids faced many Cell Jrs. by themselves and, while visibly struggling, they weren't getting overwhelmed.

Vegeta and Future Trunks both handled their one Cell Jr. well enough during their fight.

So I could imagine a fresh Goku managing to face at least two Jrs. by himself without getting overwhelmed.

But here's the kicker: these are the Jrs. that 17 tamed. He had to fight them for a long period of time in order to do that, since he went from Piccolo's level to at least SS3 Goku level, in the manga. So it would make sense that the Jrs. themselves are also stronger than they were. It's even granted if they inherited saiyan DNA from Cell, since they absolutely got near death thanks to SS2 Gohan. Toyo didn't explore that, but there's that to consider.

The kids are surprisingly stronger than what most give them credit for, tbh. At least when Tori/Toyo deign to remember they're not just for comic relief.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don’t remember RoF saying Piccolo > Kids, but the anime has SSJ Gohan >>> SSJ Trunks for sure.

I think the boys vs Cell Jrs fight was clearly one sided (The Jrs are smiling while the boys are struggling), but that could be because the Jrs ganged up on them.

Adults >> Boys >> Piccolo for me. Even Base Gohan was better than Piccolo in RoF, but needed SSJ to spar with Goten in the Boo Saga.

[ZombieVito]

I don’t remember RoF saying Piccolo > Kids, but the anime has SSJ Gohan >>> SSJ Trunks for sure.

I think the boys vs Cell Jrs fight was clearly one sided (The Jrs are smiling while the boys are struggling), but that could be because the Jrs ganged up on them.

Adults >> Boys >> Piccolo for me. Even Base Gohan was better than Piccolo in RoF, but needed SSJ to spar with Goten in the Boo Saga.

That was the last time Goku and Vegeta saw Piccolo and the kids. They immediately choose him after Boo when deciding the U7 team for the Champa tournament so he's stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

That doesn’t mean they weren’t already stronger than Piccolo though, as the scene of them showing their full power suggest.

Well, I never said Piccolo was stronger. Just that the difference isn't that great since with minimal gains, Piccolo surpassed them.

You said Piccolo was stronger in the previous page.

Spoiler:

I really don't think the kids are anywhere close to the adults.

Piccolo was stronger than them by the RoF arc and according to Toriyama all the characters were in their prime after defeating Boo so his gains would be minimal between the Boo and RoF arcs.

Minimal gains hardly would make Piccolo stronger than the kids, as the difference in strength was noticeable between Piccolo and Super Saiyan level after the RoSaT, specially the mastered version the kids had access to. Goten and Trunks basically repeated the same power-up Goku used against Cell and it baffled Piccolo how much power they had. If anything, Goten and Trunks were more or less on the same level as the Cell Jrs.

[ZombieVito]

You said Piccolo was stronger in the previous page.

Spoiler:

I really don't think the kids are anywhere close to the adults.

Piccolo was stronger than them by the RoF arc and according to Toriyama all the characters were in their prime after defeating Boo so his gains would be minimal between the Boo and RoF arcs.

Minimal gains hardly would make Piccolo stronger than the kids, as the difference in strength was noticeable between Piccolo and Super Saiyan level after the RoSaT, specially the mastered version the kids had access to. Goten and Trunks basically repeated the same power-up Goku used against Cell and it baffled Piccolo how much power they had. If anything, Goten and Trunks were more or less on the same level as the Cell Jrs.

No? I said Piccolo was stronger by the RoF arc. Not before.

Piccolo [Boo]: 9
SS Kids: 9.5
Piccolo [RoF]: 10

That's how I see it.

[Yuji]

How strong would a Karin-Yajirobe fusion be? Would they be enough for the Saiyan invasion?

[HeroR]

That was the last time Goku and Vegeta saw Piccolo and the kids. They immediately choose him after Boo when deciding the U7 team for the Champa tournament so he's stronger.

Not necessarily. Goku avoided Goten and Trunks for the TOP for example because they're too inexperience. The same can easily hold true for the U6 tournament, especially since they can't fused. Buu maybe dim about some things, but he's a battle genius capable of outsmarting Goku. That and he probably has the most broken power set of all the heroes being able to heal himself and others and turn people into food.

[ZombieVito]

Not necessarily. Goku avoided Goten and Trunks for the TOP for example because they're too inexperience. The same can easily hold true for the U6 tournament, especially since they can't fused. Buu maybe dim about some things, but he's a battle genius capable of outsmarting Goku. That and he probably has the most broken power set of all the heroes being able to heal himself and others and turn people into food.

Nah. The thing Vegeta says to the kids is to get stronger on their own so power was taken into account.

[Hugo Boss]

Piccolo was definitely stronger than the kids in Super, but that was because he kept his training while for some reason they stopped making major improvements. But in Boo Arc, the difference between the kids and Piccolo was considerable. In a recent chapter from Super Hero arc, from what Trunks recalled, Piccolo wouldn’t be able to beat Dr. Hedo androids that he and Goten defeated. In Dragon Ball GT, in another hand, Trunks lists Piccolo as one of the warriors that are stronger than him.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo was definitely stronger than the kids in Super, but that was because he kept his training while for some reason they stopped making major improvements. But in Boo Arc, the difference between the kids and Piccolo was considerable. In a recent chapter from Super Hero arc, from what Trunks recalled, Piccolo wouldn’t be able to beat Dr. Hedo androids that he and Goten defeated. In Dragon Ball GT, in another hand, Trunks lists Piccolo as one of the warriors that are stronger than him.

There's really nothing that indicates that. If you give too much importance to Piccolo getting shocked by the kids powering up then I guess Goku surpassed Vegeta here too.

[Hugo Boss]

This panel is actually a good example of the point I’m making. Taking into account the context that Goten and Trunks are the only options they have to fight Majin Boo, and that their ki is enough to overwhelm Piccolo, the difference between them could more or less be described as the difference between Nappa and Goku in this panel. It wouldn’t be applied to Vegeta here, because later we have confirmation that he is stronger than Goku, which doesn’t happen in Piccolo’s case.

[Skar]

This panel is actually a good example of the point I’m making. Taking into account the context that Goten and Trunks are the only options they have to fight Majin Boo, and that their ki is enough to overwhelm Piccolo, the difference between them could more or less be described as the difference between Nappa and Goku in this panel. It wouldn’t be applied to Vegeta here, because later we have confirmation that he is stronger than Goku, which doesn’t happen in Piccolo’s case.

Buu did have Piccolo's clothes after Gotenks defused. Goku didn't seem surprised so that might implied Piccolo was stronger. I know they were only in base but I assume Buu could draw from their full power since they were all unconscious inside his body.

[Hugo Boss]

This panel is actually a good example of the point I’m making. Taking into account the context that Goten and Trunks are the only options they have to fight Majin Boo, and that their ki is enough to overwhelm Piccolo, the difference between them could more or less be described as the difference between Nappa and Goku in this panel. It wouldn’t be applied to Vegeta here, because later we have confirmation that he is stronger than Goku, which doesn’t happen in Piccolo’s case.

Buu did have Piccolo's clothes after Gotenks defused. Goku didn't seem surprised so that might implied Piccolo was stronger. I know they were only in base but I assume Buu could draw from their full power since they were all unconscious inside his body.

I don’t think Boo could draw out their Super Saiyan power though, since fusions use up all the energy they have left when its time limit ends. That’s why they can’t fuse unless they recover stamina. Basically, Piccolo comes out strong there because Boo is relying on his brain, since his power is insignificant for him.

[dragonball0900]

In a recent chapter from Super Hero arc, from what Trunks recalled, Piccolo wouldn’t be able to beat Dr. Hedo androids that he and Goten defeated.

But you also have to remember that each android that Goten and Trunks fought against was far stronger than the previous one. By logic, Trunks obviously believed that the next android Piccolo could potentially lose against would be far stronger than the one he and Goten defeated as SSJ. We don't even know how strong that android could have been in Trunks' mind.

Piccolo was already stronger than the SSJ kids during RoF, and he got even stronger during the ToP and then the Moro Saga in which Goku said he was "barely recognizable". Meanwhile, Goten and Trunks showed no signs of being far stronger as adults than they were as kids.

[Hugo Boss]

In a recent chapter from Super Hero arc, from what Trunks recalled, Piccolo wouldn’t be able to beat Dr. Hedo androids that he and Goten defeated.

But you also have to remember that each android that Goten and Trunks fought against was far stronger than the previous one. By logic, Trunks obviously believed that the next android Piccolo could potentially lose against would be far stronger than the one he and Goten defeated as SSJ. We don't even know how strong that android could have been in Trunks' mind.

Piccolo was already stronger than the SSJ kids during RoF, and he got even stronger during the ToP and then the Moro Saga in which Goku said he was "barely recognizable". Meanwhile, Goten and Trunks showed no signs of being far stronger as adults than they were as kids.

I think it’s reasonable to think the next androids would be in a different class of strength, but Trunks doesn’t really suggest Piccolo would fare better against the androids he and Goten fought either. That’s the point of the comparison. He assumes Piccolo can’t handle stronger androids, probably because he thinks Piccolo is as strong as Artificial Dinosaur #1 at best, perhaps not even that strong.

Come to think of it, Trunks probably doesn’t know how strong Piccolo was in Super, since the last time they fought together was against Boo.

[shadd21]

In the anime canon where both Black Freeza, and the concept of Ultra Ego seeming doesn't exist, Is Gohan (Beast) currently the strongest non-Angel character in the series?

[Hugo Boss]

In the anime canon where both Black Freeza, and the concept of Ultra Ego seeming doesn't exist, Is Gohan (Beast) currently the strongest non-Angel character in the series?

In the anime canon that title belongs to Jiren, so it depends on how you compare them.