People who genuinely argue the humor added in dubs "Improves the show"

[MasenkoHA]

The Latin American dub was also super faithful with the original music intact, translations of the opening and ending theme, and a very accurate script. About the only artistic license they took was giving adult Goku a standard adult male voice. And it was a massive success But for some reason the English dub needs new music, a reinterpretation of bunch of the characters, whitewashing, secularization (and in some cases outright Christianizing) the Eastern elements, and heavily rewritten scripts to be a success.

And let's not forget Funimation's dub Dragon Ball Kai which did so well with its target audience (kids who were too young to have any sort of baggage with the old Funi Z dub) that Nicktoons immediately licensed the the broadcast rights to a bunch of Z movies and GT to give their audience more Dragon Ball content.

How does that make sense?

[Cure Dragon 255]

The Latin American dub was also super faithful with the original music intact, translations of the opening and ending theme, and a very accurate script. About the only artistic license they took was giving adult Goku a standard adult male voice. And it was a massive success But for some reason the English dub needs new music, a reinterpretation of bunch of the characters, whitewashing, secularization (and in some cases outright Christianizing) the Eastern elements, and heavily rewritten scripts to be a success.

And let's not forget Funimation's dub Dragon Ball Kai which did so well with its target audience (kids who were too young to have any sort of baggage with the old Funi Z dub) that Nicktoons immediately licensed the the broadcast rights to a bunch of Z movies and GT to give their audience more Dragon Ball content.

How does that make sense?

And the worst part is that At one point or another Funimation decided to blame the shittiness of their dub on the Mexican dub. NO FUCK YOU FUNIMATION.

Ironically Freezer did add a joke during Krillin's death. The famous "Dont move! Dont you see I'm trying to kill you?" (It's both hilarious and chilling) one but other than that it's just the Japanese version but with all the right compromises and faithfulness.

[MasenkoHA]

And the worst part is that At one point or another Funimation decided to blame the shittiness of their dub on the Mexican dub. NO FUCK YOU FUNIMATION.

Right, didn't at one point a Funimation rep claim they only had access to the Mexican dub for reference?

So...you guys had access to a very accurate dub...in a language that's super easy to find translators for in the state of Texas and you couldn't produce an accurate dub because.....?

[GhostEmperorX]

I think dubs ARE adaptations, in their own way.

Not when professional companies who are serious about importing anime properly do it (see Pioneer movies).

The sub and dub are two completely different shows in this case, but that isn’t a BAD thing. The dub isn’t the show I loved but it did become what other people loved - and brought more people into the overall fan base than there likely would be otherwise.

That has not at all had any good consequences for the fandom in the first place. So it's a negative rather than the positive you seem to think it is.
Even if the series itself had "less fans", it would still be as massively influential an international phenomenon as it is that people would still come across it somehow, whether it's through its clone series that would come up soon after (I mean, even recent stuff like Edens Zero still references DB although it's not been influencing that many new productions these days) or just any of the vast media it had (like VG's) prior to any US dubs.

This is all to say that dub changes aren’t necessarily a bad thing - far from it. Individual changes can of course be be bad but the concept isn’t.

No, it most definitely is, and there's a reason it isn't being done for anime series with no western company involvement nowadays. The double standard for DB needs to end yesterday.

I just hope that this isn't a hit-and-run kind of post though...

[Kaboom]

In a vacuum, the jokes themselves may or may not be funny.

But if they're not at least halfway-faithful translations of what the characters are saying in Japanese, then they don't belong there.

And if a domestic dub of a show is overloaded with dialogue, jokes or otherwise, that aren't what the characters are saying in Japanese and thus don't belong there, then (with some extremely few and far between exceptions, DBZ's dub not among them) it's not worth watching.

'Nuff said, I guess?

[GhostEmperorX]

'Nuff said, I guess?

In summary, a few bumps here and there are to be expected and unavoidable. But going completely off the rails in one or more areas (which is what the in-house dub did) is indefensible.

I mean, even the Big Green and Speedy dubs (of the movies in particular), for all their script problems and wonky deliveries to the point of parody vibes, were actually not all that far away from what the dialogue in the original JP version was, and especially with the latter of these, it was mostly overly literal and generally far from an ironed out product.
(They also did the default arrangement of keeping the original score, somehow there's people who view clips of them that don't even know that it's the proper score.)

You look around at other popular shows in the west and try to take a little bit of this and a bit of that to make sure you are not going to air something too alien and set yourself up for failure.

I mean, even stuff like the art style is alien enough, might as well go all the way.

This I think is specifically true for the musical accompaniment that even by the 90s, in the west at least, felt rather dated and sounded like something out of a 1960s anime (not that that is a bad thing but not sure 90s kids had that kind of taste at the time).

As I mentioned elsewhere, a soundtrack shouldn't have to depend on whatever the surrounding genre trends at the time are, and if people don't like it, they can always judge it separately from the show itself (though I'll say that the recording convention/standard should at least be up to date, no degraded mono mixes).
With regards to the date, even numerous anime series for which this criticism can't be applied in the same way as people like to do for DBZ (Initial D, Saint Seiya, Sailor Moon, Digimon, Escaflowne, Cardcaptor Sakura, etc) went through the same treatment anyway so it's practically got no legitimacy whatsoever on that basis alone. If the same amateur company somehow got their hands on, say GiTS, they'd probably have done the same (barring direct intervention from Oshii who probably would do that) considering its own score isn't directly reflecting the film's genre.

In general though, pretty much nothing slowed - or could slow - DBZ down. Its original score certainly didn't internationally, and even the long hiatus it took from syndication to Toonami didn't do any such thing in the US. Even the Pioneer movies that kept that element didn't slow the series down at all.
_____________________
Separately, I remembered about how I used to watch a show like Naruto Shippuden in sub a long time ago, and then later for some reason I continued where I stopped with the dub version, and it was still generally (aka 100%) the same story so I had no issues continuing with it (until it stopped because it was behind the sub version at the time, then I switched back again). That show has a lot of terms that don't carry over smoothly to ENG, verbal tics very much included (owing to the fact that it's deeply rooted in JP cultural elements as a matter of course), and yet there isn't that much confusion or controversy among fans over it, nor is it a point of contention like it is with DB/Z (I guess maybe because a lot of people even prefer to use the JP terms directly but even with that there's not much issue if translations are used).
Of course, that's what happens when pro companies and proper dubbing standards come into play.

[YoungDefender]

I mean, even the Big Green and Speedy dubs (of the movies in particular), for all their script problems and wonky deliveries to the point of parody vibes, were actually not all that far away from what the dialogue in the original JP version was, and especially with the latter of these, it was mostly overly literal and generally far from an ironed out product.
(They also did the default arrangement of keeping the original score, somehow there's people who view clips of them that don't even know that it's the proper score.)

Doesn't that serve to underscore that accuracy to the original dialogue and score alone doesn't make a dub particularly better or even good. Neither of those dubs are anywhere near the quality level of even funimation's first attempt in the Ginyu saga despite being more accurate or faithful in those ways.

I mean, even stuff like the art style is alien enough, might as well go all the way.

Easy to say in retrospect knowing how huge Dragon Ball has become in the English speaking market. I do not necessarily even disagree in the case of Dragon Ball in principle but localizers even today make these kinds of decisions all the time whenever things get a bit too "Japanese" for any but the most Otaku in the west to get.

As I mentioned elsewhere, a soundtrack shouldn't have to depend on whatever the surrounding genre trends at the time are, and if people don't like it, they can always judge it separately from the show itself.

Again, we are talking about 90s kids here, not the most hardcore of hardcore anime fans around in the west at the time. If a 6th grader doesn't like the show they are going to change the channel, not buy the toys or the lunch box and not look back. They're not going to sit back and say "well, let's be fair and judge this really old sounding music as a separate entity from the cartoon show I am watching.".

I mean this doesn't really make sense anyway, why would you judge a score meant to accompany a specific visual separate from the visual it was created specifically to accompany? I mean I suppose you could strictly speaking but you would be doing it even more of a disservice by judging it separately in a vacuum.

Separately, I remembered about how I used to watch a show like Naruto Shippuden in sub a long time ago, and then later for some reason I continued where I stopped with the dub version, and it was still generally (aka 100%) the same story so I had no issues continuing with it (until it stopped because it was behind the sub version at the time, then I switched back again). That show has a lot of terms that don't carry over smoothly to ENG, verbal tics very much included (owing to the fact that it's deeply rooted in JP cultural elements as a matter of course), and yet there isn't that much confusion or controversy among fans over it, nor is it a point of contention like it is with DB/Z (I guess maybe because a lot of people even prefer to use the JP terms directly but even with that there's not much issue if translations are used).
Of course, that's what happens when pro companies and proper dubbing standards come into play.

But is this really the general consensus? I am genuinely asking as I am not familiar with that fanbase but I would imagine given a franchise as big a Naruto is in the west there there would be a host of fans who make it a point to call out all the flaws they can find in a dub. Of course I could be totally wrong here but I hazard a guess that if I wanted to take a deep dive into Naruto fan forums I would find similar dividing lines within the community and similar ridicule of the dubs. dub performances and dubisms.

[GhostEmperorX]

Doesn't that serve to underscore that accuracy to the original dialogue and score alone doesn't make a dub particularly better or even good. Neither of those dubs are anywhere near the quality level of even funimation's first attempt in the Ginyu saga despite being more accurate or faithful in those ways.

Those are largely ESL dubs anyway, the Ocean-Pioneer movies (1-3) are more ideal in that respect (and far better than the Funimation dubs of the same). They still didn't end up slowing DBZ down though.

Easy to say in retrospect knowing how huge Dragon Ball has become in English speaking market. I do not necessarily even disagree in the case of Dragon Ball in principle but localizers even today make these kinds of decisions all the time whenever things get a bit too "Japanese" for any but the most Otaku in the west to get.

USA/Anglosphere≠"The West". It got big just about everywhere in the world it went. Regardless of anything, even inaccurate dubs like the aforementioned.

Again, we are talking about 90s kids here, not the most hardcore of hardcore anime fans around in the west at the time. If a 6th grader doesn't like the show they are going to change the channel, not buy the toys or the lunch box and not look back. They're not going to sit back and say "well, let's be fair and judge this really old sounding music as a separate entity from the cartoon show I am watching.".

Channels like Boomerang existed and kids could watch those actually old shows and their old scores with no problem, so they're not that likely to zero in on the score for the exact same reason you cited of them not being hardcore anime fans (who would in fact be more likely to do so). It sounds more like a trend-chasing propaganda narrative now, if anything.
Of course, it's also possible that if the show went the way of Saint Seiya or FotNS, then that would in fact be a better outcome altogether.

EDIT: In fact I remember watching an Arabic language version of DBZ as a kid on some random hotel TV back in my own country, and while I didn't understand the language or remember the BGM that much, I still watched it till the end of the episode because of the way it looked, there was no danger of tuning out. It was a Saiyan Saga episode where the Z Warriors were battling the Saibamen (how do people say this one again?), strangely enough it came after I saw a copy of the DB manga in school that was brought over by a student from a different country, one that just so happened to be at the beginning of Z in the anime (when Raditz shows up). It was long before I first watched DuBZ in full.

I mean this doesn't really make sense anyway, why would you judge a score meant to accompany a specific visual separate from the visual it was created specifically to accompany? I mean I suppose you could strictly speaking but you would be doing it even more of a disservice by judging it separately in a vacuum.

It's just like how a soundtrack can be seen as the only redeeming quality a particular series or film has, but in reverse.

But is this really the general consensus? I am genuinely asking as I am not familiar with that fanbase but I would imagine given a franchise as big a Naruto is in the west there there would be a host of fans who make it a point to call out all the flaws they can find in a dub. Of course I could be totally wrong here but I hazard a guess that if I wanted to take a deep dive into Naruto fan forums I would find similar dividing lines within the community and similar ridicule of the dubs. dub performances and dubisms.

Closest thing I've seen is calling out "Believe it!" as a less than ideal replacement for Naruto's normal verbal tic (which is one of those things that's just outright going to get lost in translation otherwise, and there can be any number of those), or directly using one JP name or the other without translating it and not getting the pronunciation right as a result. Beyond that no one really cares all that much about whatever "different" dub terms there may be as it's still mostly the same, people in the fandom across the board (I've been part of it for a long time but branched out after it ended) generally tend to use the primary JP terms more if anything. No lengthy discussions of "dub-ism's" nor are there any as completely off the mark as DBZ's. IOW, it's not a "completely different show" or anything close. Same soundtrack, same dialogue, no unnecessary additions, etc

And JP pronunciations aside, there's not that big a discussion for that series surrounding the performances (they're generally fitting for the characters), at least beyond personal preferences. So it's really not similar at all.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I mean, even the Big Green and Speedy dubs (of the movies in particular), for all their script problems and wonky deliveries to the point of parody vibes, were actually not all that far away from what the dialogue in the original JP version was, and especially with the latter of these, it was mostly overly literal and generally far from an ironed out product.
(They also did the default arrangement of keeping the original score, somehow there's people who view clips of them that don't even know that it's the proper score.)

Funny enough, both are effectively translations of translations. Big Green basically took from the French dub's scripts of AB/S.O.F.I that were apparently machine translated. Speedy was more or less poor translations from one of the Chinese dubs (most likely Cantonese) which in turn was translated from the Japanese version. I've actually compared the Speedy movie dubs' dialogue wise to the original versions and they're actually fairly close. Of course, that's aside from the almost incomprehensible accents of the people in Malaysia (Singapore maybe?) who did the voices. As well as the butchering/mangling of the dialogue on top of it.

[GhostEmperorX]

Funny enough, both are translations of translations. Big Green basically took from the French dub's scripts of AB/S.O.F.I that were apparently machine translated. Speedy was more or less poor translations from one of the Chinese dubs (most likely Cantonese) which in turn was translated from the Japanese version. I've actually compared the Speedy movie dubs' dialogue wise to the original versions and they're actually fairly close. Of course, that's aside from the almost incomprehensible accents of the people in Malaysia (Singapore maybe?) who did the voices. As well as the butchering/mangling of the dialogue on top of it.

Which is hilarious that they weren't too far off the mark even despite that. Also, knowing the Chinese, they pretty much have a good way of preserving what the original JP is saying, even if it's a completely different language (attack names for example and a lot of terms in general, like "Battle Power" are exactly the same).
Between the two though, Speedy is mostly ahead of Big Green in accuracy (they even pronounced the "Saiya-" portion right even though the full thing was too literal).

[NeoZ Duwang]

I think it's totally fine to enjoy (and even prefer) an adaptation as long as you keep in mind that it's a different version that exists primarly because the people behind the adaptation were not confident enough on the source material. I'm not trying to diminish Funimation's dub with this, but there is a reason why people like me look at dubs like that and go all "Huh, weird... anyway, watch the original, it's a better representation of the world the actual author of the series created"

My first contact with anything related to the english dub was the Legacy of Goku games, many aspects of the game were heavily based on Funimation's version, and even as a kid I felt something weird with the wrigin, I mean, it didn't bother me THAT much because my english wasn't really that great, but I noticed something was different. The music too, it wasn't bad, but it didn't feel like what I expected for the series. I listened some more tracks from the Faulconer's score in stuff like Super Mario Bros. Z or Sonic: Nazo Unleashed, and I eventually learned that many of those "edgy" sounding tracks were part of the Dragon Ball experience in the US. Again, the music itself isn't that bad at all, but it was nothing like the Dragon Ball I knew, and not in a good way. To this day it's hard to believe that there are many people out there that think of Faulconer before thinking of Kikuchi when the subject is Dragon Ball's score

Personally, I always found the tendency english dubs have of making arbitrary changes to "fit western culture" really odd and completely unnecessary. We got a lot of anime here in Brazil back in the day and most changes were either mistranslations, or special cases where our version of a show was based on an inaccurate english dub (giving us an accurate dub of an inaccurate dub). The few cases I can think of were cases were censorship was necessary for one reason or another, like in the first broadcast of Yu Yu Hakusho, the character Kazemaru, had the Manji in his forehead painted over for reasons you can probably already guess. Very rarely you got actually substantial changes in dialogue that would alter the way you view the series

That is not to say Brazil got the best dubs or something, I still prefer to go with the original for a variety of reasons (We got our own share of weird oddities like "Orin Temple" being changed to "Bruce Lee's temple" which makes me go ???) but I just want to highlight that the idea that these shows are too japanese for the rest of the world to understand and enjoy is more than just a little bit silly

[Vegerotto]

This is all to say that dub changes aren’t necessarily a bad thing - far from it. Individual changes can of course be be bad but the concept isn’t.

No, it most definitely is, and there's a reason it isn't being done for anime series with no western company involvement nowadays. The double standard for DB needs to end yesterday.

I just hope that this isn't a hit-and-run kind of post though...

Haven't responded to most of the thread here just because I quickly realized it would be an uphill debate, and sometimes I prefer to pick my battles, but I do want to respond to this, which is a bit baffling.

"The double standard for DB needs to end yesterday."

...uh. This post wasn't about DB specifically. Like, check it. I didn't really bring up DB itself at all.

I brought up Yu Yu Hakusho, if I remember correctly. I certainly brought up Kaguya-Sama, a recent show that has a dub that changes the entire style of humor, and is beloved by a lot of people due to that.

I never WAS talking about DB specifically, only about the general idea of dub changes = automatically bad. Because that core mindset is something I take more issue with than the specifics of Dragon Ball Z's late 90s and early 2000s english dubs.

[YoungDefender]

I never WAS talking about DB specifically, only about the general idea of dub changes = automatically bad.

Well I mean, in the context of a thread like this on a site like this you are at least tangentially talking about DB.

But I largely agree with you. The question is never really whether one should. Should anyone create a fan-parody of the series that essentially ridicules the story, writing and characters, however lovingly, and creates it's own moments and "memes" artificially out of complete nothing but from a heavy handed manipulation of the source material? I would say no, you shouldn't and that it's in bad taste both creatively and on it's merit as entertainment but the point is someone did and a lot of people like it.

Now one can deride others for having bad taste but beyond that there really isn't a conversation to be had it seems. That parody series is it's own thing now which brings along it's own fans into the wider Dragon Ball fan base, like it or not.

Obviously an official localization should be held to higher standards overall but on the whole the same logic applies to whatever changes they made that did resonate with some people, somewhere. In my opinion you cannot invalidate anything and everything of potential merit in a "creative" localization just by waving a few manga panels around.

[MuscleRobo]

I really don't understand how localization changes are even a debate. It has to be because anime and manga are considered a "lower art." Can you imagine if translators of historical novels made changes they thought fit the story better? If people subtitling live action films felt the need to change things?

We have examples within Japanese media like this; take Battle Royale. The film and novel had straight translations but the manga felt the need to meme it up and get edits done by a comic book author.

We deserve to be respected enough to get the actual property! I'm not even getting into the problems with canon that arise from these just a basic respect level for the work they are distributing.

[GhostEmperorX]

I brought up Yu Yu Hakusho, if I remember correctly. I certainly brought up Kaguya-Sama, a recent show that has a dub that changes the entire style of humor, and is beloved by a lot of people due to that.

I never WAS talking about DB specifically, only about the general idea of dub changes = automatically bad. Because that core mindset is something I take more issue with than the specifics of Dragon Ball Z's late 90s and early 2000s english dubs.

I see, however I was speaking along the lines of the excesses that the Z dub made, as well as numerous other Macekre-type adaptations, not changes made carefully (with a heavy degree of involvement from the original staff) to achieve the same effect in English or other different languages (see the Ace Attorney/Gyakuten Saiban video game series). I haven't watched that particular series but it's likely that the humour mainly just worked in JP rather than anywhere else.

But ditto to what YD said about this being a DB site with, well, DB tangents in conversations like these.

But I largely agree with you. The question is never really whether one should....In my opinion you cannot invalidate anything and everything of potential merit in a "creative" localization just by waving a few manga panels around.

One important question though... the ultimate effect these things have is division & confusion even if they do have merit. And, well, why is it "OK" for DB but not for most any other series of its kind?

I really don't understand how localization changes are even a debate. It has to be because anime and manga are considered a "lower art."

We deserve to be respected enough to get the actual property! I'm not even getting into the problems with canon that arise from these just a basic respect level for the work they are distributing.

Not sure there's any other reason honestly. Though I do know of similar changes to books (Philosopher's Stone -> "Sorcerer's" Stone, though not quite as extensive but still significant).
But we all know that it's mainly just within the US that this is done to foreign media. It's like there's some element of this that goes back a really long time, but that would require its own different forum to go into.

[Cursed Lemon]

"There are three things I refuse to tolerate. Cowardice, bad haircuts, and military insurrection. Unfortunately, our friend Vegeta is all of these things."

^ Actually hilarious

[YoungDefender]

One important question though... the ultimate effect these things have is division & confusion even if they do have merit. And, well, why is it "OK" for DB but not for most any other series of its kind?

The things is I don't think you can really avoid division and confusion when it comes to a franchise of this size. Even if it was just the manga and the subbed anime there would still be division and confusion over canon and certain events for instance, not to mention pacing and specific dialogue variations. Same goes for Super vs non-Super fans, GT and so on.

So it's not that it's okay for DB and no one else, it's just that DB is so big that it has a bunch of different shows and different dubs and while that is going to lead to division in some places there is already division in the fan base over so much else that worrying about just the dub side seems a bit targeted.

[GhostEmperorX]

The things is I don't think you can really avoid division and confusion when it comes to a franchise of this size. Even if it was just the manga and the subbed anime there would still be division and confusion over canon and certain events for instance, not to mention pacing and specific dialogue variations. Same goes for Super vs non-Super fans, GT and so on.

So it's not that it's okay for DB and no one else, it's just that DB is so big that it has a bunch of different shows and different dubs and while that is going to lead to division in some places there is already division in the fan base over so much else that worrying about just the dub side seems a bit targeted.

I can understand that point since, well, it took the world by storm and also had some other botched dubs of its own outside of the Anglosphere (Big Green and Speedy), also having a bit of trouble in places like China apparently, but the US side seemed to go far beyond all these and leave a lasting imprint on even other official franchise media like video games and home releases. After all, it was Funimation that first made ridiculous moves like cropping the series to 16:9 even though no other anime of the 20th Century gets this kind of treatment, and that has a massive impact on the presentation (and preservation) of the series, especially as the internet came into being. They also oversaturated the market with terrible releases of the show, something that even other Toei properties haven't gotten.

Meanwhile AB Groupe in France learned from their own mistakes, whatever they may have been. And the "monsters" that Funimation themselves created wouldn't even allow them to move on from all their past mistakes and baggage that they attached to the series. Right till this day since they seemed to have backtracked from their new direction in Kai.

Those other divisions you mentioned really aren't all that confusing though. And they all seem to pale in comparison to matters of official licensing, which is quite important and has been shown to go beyond just dubbing (trying to make the series "fit" modern TV's).
(As for the latter, it occurred to me a lot more after seeing a dubbed clip of Mobile Police Patlabor somewhere that those on this site were right in that adaptation/dub changes were primarily being done because the shows were marketed to children on cable TV, whereas the adult market was largely free of any compulsion to alter everything.)