Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

In the anime canon where both Black Freeza, and the concept of Ultra Ego seeming doesn't exist, Is Gohan (Beast) currently the strongest non-Angel character in the series?

If by anime you include the movies and it's informations, then I think it would be something like:

Gohan Beast >= (Completed) Cell Max > FP Broly > Jiren (reminder he can perform way higher than his actual "power level") >= Orange Piccolo >= Blue Goku&Vegeta

[shadd21]

In the anime canon where both Black Freeza, and the concept of Ultra Ego seeming doesn't exist, Is Gohan (Beast) currently the strongest non-Angel character in the series?

If by anime you include the movies and it's informations, then I think it would be something like:

Gohan Beast >= (Completed) Cell Max > FP Broly > Jiren (reminder he can perform way higher than his actual "power level") >= Orange Piccolo >= Blue Goku&Vegeta

Where would you place Beerus, Kefla, LB Jiren, and MUI Goku on this list?

[ankokudaishogun]

Personally I think "Super Full Power" Jiren is, basically, Kaiohken Jiren.
As in: a Jiren using all of his power at once.

The final fight against Freeza, Goku and 17 is probably the best way we have to gauge his "real" base-power: everybody was running on fumes but he was still powerful enough to manage those three, even though he wasn't that strong to actually dominate them like he did earlier against KKx20 Goku, SSBEvo Vegeta and #17 together

scale them up, and I'd say Jiren's base is about KKBx20

[ZombieVito]

In the anime canon where both Black Freeza, and the concept of Ultra Ego seeming doesn't exist, Is Gohan (Beast) currently the strongest non-Angel character in the series?

Yes.

Toriyama said Gohan is the strongest.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

As much as many might hate it, it makes sense that Gohan Beast has the highest sheer raw power out of everyone of the main cast currently.

Not to say that he could do well with that power given how arrogant he gets when he unlocks this potential and how he's not that great of a fighter compared to Goku, but it is the highest overall level of strength.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think we should just forget that line about Jiren. Not because it's dumb (Although it is), but because it means absolutely nothing. Lots of people compare it to what Goku does against the Ginyu Force, but I've never seen anyone say 5000 was Goku's true power.

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Jheese: “Wh-what’s going on…?! There’s no mistake that his battle power is only 5,000…”
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”

In the anime canon where both Black Freeza, and the concept of Ultra Ego seeming doesn't exist, Is Gohan (Beast) currently the strongest non-Angel character in the series?

I'm not sure if Gohan is stronger than Broly. Toriyama hypes Completed Cell Max by saying he's above Broly, which sounds redundant if he'd still lose to Gohan.

[QuakingStar]

I think we should just forget that line about Jiren. Not because it's dumb (Although it is), but because it means absolutely nothing. Lots of people compare it to what Goku does against the Ginyu Force, but I've never seen anyone say 5000 was Goku's true power.

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Jheese: “Wh-what’s going on…?! There’s no mistake that his battle power is only 5,000…”
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”

In the anime canon where both Black Freeza, and the concept of Ultra Ego seeming doesn't exist, Is Gohan (Beast) currently the strongest non-Angel character in the series?

I'm not sure if Gohan is stronger than Broly. Toriyama hypes Completed Cell Max by saying he's above Broly, which sounds redundant if he'd still lose to Gohan.

How? Cell Max was quite literally zero-diffed by Gohan. He couldn't even make it past Gohans Aura with his punch. Toriyama treats Gohan as the strongest and that alone shows it as consistent especially considering that Cell Max's body was complete, but only his mind control programming was not. I would assume if there was a power difference between him having the mind control programming or not it wouldn't be that great considering his body was complete while the difference between his and Gohans power was Night and Day. Gohan easily outclassed everyone and I only see Black Frieza as being a contender.

[ZombieVito]

How? Cell Max was quite literally zero-diffed by Gohan. He couldn't even make it past Gohans Aura with his punch. Toriyama treats Gohan as the strongest and that alone shows it as consistent especially considering that Cell Max's body was complete, but only his mind control programming was not. I would assume if there was a power difference between him having the mind control programming or not it wouldn't be that great considering his body was complete while the difference between his and Gohans power was Night and Day. Gohan easily outclassed everyone and I only see Black Frieza as being a contender.

While I agree that Gohan is the strongest (As said by Toriyama), Cell Max was weakened by Gamma 2 and they did say that without that, they might not have beaten him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I imagine that it's a similar gap between Super Perfect Cell and SS2 Preteen Gohan.

More than close enough that the former could still be a real challenge, but the latter is overall still stronger without mental blocks.

[QuakingStar]

How? Cell Max was quite literally zero-diffed by Gohan. He couldn't even make it past Gohans Aura with his punch. Toriyama treats Gohan as the strongest and that alone shows it as consistent especially considering that Cell Max's body was complete, but only his mind control programming was not. I would assume if there was a power difference between him having the mind control programming or not it wouldn't be that great considering his body was complete while the difference between his and Gohans power was Night and Day. Gohan easily outclassed everyone and I only see Black Frieza as being a contender.

While I agree that Gohan is the strongest (As said by Toriyama), Cell Max was weakened by Gamma 2 and they did say that without that, they might not have beaten him.

Yeah, but in context that was referring to Orange Piccolo holding Cell off enough that everyone didn't just get wiped out ASAP. If Cell was at full power Orange Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan would have died. Beast Gohan would still have won, except Beast Gohan would not have occurred if Cell killed them all at that point so I guess that's moot.

[Hugo Boss]

That’s what I think as well. Completed or not, Cell Max was completely overpowered by Beast Gohan. A scenario in which Cell Max beats Gohan probably revolves around Gohan not being able to use his full power for a particular reason or being caught off guard, which is within the realm of possibility if written properly. In a direct confrontation with both at their absolute best, Beast Gohan is clearly superior.

I can only assume that Cell Max only can’t defeat Broly right now because they are very close in strength and feral. So, whoever gets control over his own power becomes the superior one.

[Yuji]

What's the consensus on Dabra's strength now? Considering SS2 Trunks took care of him without much issue, is it fair to say perfect Cell was the form Goku compared him to? Though Trunks was also stronger than Cell Games Gohan at that point, so it's probable he'd handle SPC just as easily.

[Thani]

What's the consensus on Dabra's strength now? Considering SS2 Trunks took care of him without much issue, is it fair to say perfect Cell was the form Goku compared him to? Though Trunks was also stronger than Cell Games Gohan at that point, so it's probable he'd handle SPC just as easily.

Are you talking anime or manga? In the anime Trunks defeated Dabura pretty quickly, but in the manga even with SS2 he didn't cause much damage at all despite catching Dabura off-guard with a series of blows. Hell, even in the anime version, Dabura wasn't really shown hurt before Trunks killed him with that ki blast. Compare to Cell, who was heavily damaged by just a few strikes from Gohan.

Ultimately we never saw how their actual battle would go because Shin paralyzed him and Babidi so Trunks could deal the killing blow, but Dabura was still confident he could defeat Trunks despite the initial trouncing.

That said, by the time that Trunks spars with Goku he's pretty much a SS3 in all but transformation, so it's a given he would handle Cell or Dabura easily.

I think Dabura still remains a pretty solid SS2-level character, just like SPCell.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That’s what I think as well. Completed or not, Cell Max was completely overpowered by Beast Gohan. A scenario in which Cell Max beats Gohan probably revolves around Gohan not being able to use his full power for a particular reason or being caught off guard, which is within the realm of possibility if written properly. In a direct confrontation with both at their absolute best, Beast Gohan is clearly superior.

I can only assume that Cell Max only can’t defeat Broly right now because they are very close in strength and feral. So, whoever gets control over his own power becomes the superior one.

Sort of makes sense on paper, but the way their mindsets were displayed were complete opposites. Broly was like Kid Boo, running on mere instinct (Maybe that's why Vegeta praises him in the manga?) and easily adapting to other fighting styles on the fly. Cell Max was plain dumb to a point it made him slower than the Z Fighters.

So going by your logic, I think Cell Max should be a bit above Broly, but Broly beats the mindless dumb Cell.

What's the consensus on Dabra's strength now? Considering SS2 Trunks took care of him without much issue, is it fair to say perfect Cell was the form Goku compared him to? Though Trunks was also stronger than Cell Games Gohan at that point, so it's probable he'd handle SPC just as easily.

I'm going with SPC level right now. The most common placement is up there with Cell Games Gohan, but he doesn't do anything. He's just above the weakened Gohan and below FP Gohan. So Dabra = SPC = SSJ2 Teen Gohan feels accurate.

Trunks does the same training as Gohan, but that doesn't mean he should end up with the same power level. Gohan seemed slightly stronger than Goku based on their handling of the Z Sword. Trunks ended up needing Kaioshin's help to finish Dabra, I doubt someone above Boo Saga Goku would need help. He's probably around Vegeta's level before Babidi's power up.

SSJ2 Gohan (Post Z Sword): 100
SSJ2 Goku: 75
SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games): 70
SSJ2 Trunks: 60
SSJ2 Gohan (Boo Saga)/Dabra/SPC: 50

[Magnificent Ponta]

What's the consensus on Dabra's strength now?

Given that whether Gohan fights him as SSj or SSj2 is one of the most contentious longstanding arguments going among the Dragon Ball internet fandom, and this plays directly into any judgement of how strong Dabura is, I don't think you can have anything that looks like a meaningful "consensus".

Insofar as Gohan appears to be SSj when he fights him and Dabura calls him "trash" in retrospect, and SSj Trunks appears to struggle in a (no doubt deliberately) very similar way when he fights him, but some other characters who we know to have SSj2 available either think he's nothing special (Vegeta, Goku - perhaps worth noting that it's ambiguous whether Vegeta's SSj2 is better than Cell Games Gohan's or not when he makes that judgement about Dabura) or simply kill him (Trunks), he appears to slot neatly enough into the general gap that exists between the two forms, whether at the higher or lower end.

Whether that pegs him more properly to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell depends at least in part on one's interpretation of whether Super Perfect Cell actually hits proper SSj2 level or still remains some way off; since Goku revises his opinion of Dabura's strength upwards when he sees he has magic but it changes nobody's judgement that he's quite easily beatable, one might tend toward the more conservative interpretation of thinking that the original Perfect Cell was the power Goku had in mind in making his comparisons.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Insofar as Gohan appears to be SSj when he fights him and Dabura calls him "trash" in retrospect, and SSj Trunks appears to struggle in a (no doubt deliberately) very similar way when he fights him

This is a great point. I never noticed that Trunks does stand his ground with Dabra a bit, and the way he graps Dabra’s sword (and breaks it off screen) is evocative of that.

Trunks is definitely on the losing end though, he’s bruised and being pushed back. Gohan and Dabra were in a stalemate, and Gohan made Dabra duck for cover with a Kamehameha. Calling Gohan “trash” was just empty bragging.

[ankokudaishogun]

I think Darbula is somehow stronger than Perfect Cell but not as strong as Super Perfect Cell:

• strong enough a Super Saiyan on the brink to reach SS2(Future Trunks) cannot defeat him normally(thus: stronger than Cell Game SS1 Gohan) but he's also unable to beat the SS1 (thus: weaker than Super Perfect Cell)
• not so stronger he'd give REAL problems to a "non-slacking" SS2(Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta)

Basically:

1. In-Shape SS2
2. Super Perfect Cell
3. Darbula\Maxed Out SS1(Future Trunks)\Out-of-Shape SS(2?)(Buu Saga Gohan)
4. Cell Game SS1 Gohan
5. Perfect Cell

[Koitsukai]

I still wonder why people assume Toriyama made a mistake when not drawing the sparks for SS2 Gohan instead of just taking it at face value.

Don't know if the Daizenshuu is to "blame" or the anime (IIRC, there were no sparks there either), but the context provided by the manga imply Gohan was not SS2, placing Dabura in between Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell.

I see three forms of SS Gohan. His Great Saiyaman SS with that boring hairdue, his spikier SS that he used vs Dabura and Buu, and his SS2 form, that he used vs Cell and showcased vs Kibito.
Using SS2 when Spopovich's rampage was still fresh, and then not being able to use it vs Dabura is in line with Gohan's character, he can go nuts when somebody else is on the line (Videl), but he might not do that when he is the one on the line (vs Dabura), specially if he has cooled down. AFAIK Toriyama never acknowledged any mistakes or blunders about this, so I wonder if it isn't just people trying to be right.

TL,DR: I think Gohan was not SS2, and Dabura beats Perfect Cell but loses to SPC.

[Thani]

Going by Trunk's flashback in the manga, his SS2 form wasn't able to inflict nearly enough damage to get him winded or doubt his chances of victory before Shin paralyzed him. Also, note that Dabura dodged Gohan's kamehameha to protect Babidi. Cuz' a blast of that size would absolutely hit his master.

That implies that Toyo (and by extension Tori, who's overseeing his work) believes that Dabura wouldn't be easily defeated by SS2 Trunks, ergo, he's SS2 level.

The doubt remains if we only use Z as reference, but we have Super to provide new context. Though to be fair, Future Dabura could be stronger than the main one, who knows. Regardless, I very much doubt a rusty Gohan would fare anywhere near as well as he fared against a Perfect Cell-level opponent with just his (downgraded by rustyness) SS1 unless his opponent was just toying with him. Which Dabura didn't seemed to be, since he was showing visible effort. Despite Goku urging Gohan to get angry and Shin banking his chances on Gohan's full power.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Calling Gohan “trash” was just empty bragging.

Possibly so. But Gohan grimaces and sweats hard when Dabura says it, and for most of their fight Dabura is smirking (minus specifically the struggle around the sword, which is the only time he seems to expend real effort), much like he is for most of his fight with SSj Trunks. And although Dabura doesn't inflict enough damage to satisfy Babidi, it's worth noting that Gohan expends enough stamina simply trying to keep up that he needs a Senzu Bean afterwards. So even if there's something of the brag in the claim that Gohan is "trash" to Dabura, I'd say it's depicted as having enough truth in it for Gohan to know and accept the overall premise that he's at a decisive disadvantage, on the basis of their earlier fight.

Going by Trunk's flashback in the manga, his SS2 form wasn't able to inflict nearly enough damage to get him winded or doubt his chances of victory before Shin paralyzed him. [...] That implies that Toyo (and by extension Tori, who's overseeing his work) believes that Dabura wouldn't be easily defeated by SS2 Trunks, ergo, he's SS2 level.

Also a possible interpretation. But on the other hand, SSj2 Trunks knocks Dabura on his backside before he can even get his reassurances out fully, Dabura doesn't manage to take the initiative back at all after Trunks transforms (having had it the whole time while Trunks was SSj), and whatever caveats there may be around factoring in the matter of Kaioshin's assistance for the finishing blow, it's also worth pointing out that ultimately, SSj2 Trunks does kill Dabura, and pretty quickly at that. One could argue for generalised SSj2 level for Dabura, I guess, but one could alternatively quite plausibly say he's a step below that level.

I guess I'm inclined to say I more-or-less agree with Koitsukai and ankokudaishogun about Dabura's overall level.