Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

What's the consensus on Dabra's strength now? Considering SS2 Trunks took care of him without much issue, is it fair to say perfect Cell was the form Goku compared him to? Though Trunks was also stronger than Cell Games Gohan at that point, so it's probable he'd handle SPC just as easily.

SS2 tier as confirmed by the Daizenshuu and double confirmed in the Super manga.

[Miracles]

I think we should just forget that line about Jiren. Not because it's dumb (Although it is), but because it means absolutely nothing. Lots of people compare it to what Goku does against the Ginyu Force, but I've never seen anyone say 5000 was Goku's true power.

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Jheese: “Wh-what’s going on…?! There’s no mistake that his battle power is only 5,000…”
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”

It's different. Jiren fights at 100% of his power without waste. Hence why he was overwhelmingly stronger than everyone. Yet his power wasn't so much different from Goku and Vegeta's.

In the anime canon where both Black Freeza, and the concept of Ultra Ego seeming doesn't exist, Is Gohan (Beast) currently the strongest non-Angel character in the series?


I'm not sure if Gohan is stronger than Broly. Toriyama hypes Completed Cell Max by saying he's above Broly, which sounds redundant if he'd still lose to Gohan.

Toriyama said Gohan is actually stronger than anyone. When he shines he is always the man [Cell, Buu, Super Hero].

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think a case can be made that Jiren has condensed his Ki to be so dense and efficient that, even if the actual amount isn't that much higher in total capacity than Goku and Vegeta's current levels, it acts as a far higher level of power.

The anime notes many times how heavy and dense Jiren's physical blows and energy are beyond the simple capacity of it. The difference between a plank of wood, and a plank of steel.

[Hugo Boss]

Sort of makes sense on paper, but the way their mindsets were displayed were complete opposites. Broly was like Kid Boo, running on mere instinct (Maybe that's why Vegeta praises him in the manga?) and easily adapting to other fighting styles on the fly. Cell Max was plain dumb to a point it made him slower than the Z Fighters.

So going by your logic, I think Cell Max should be a bit above Broly, but Broly beats the mindless dumb Cell.

I was waiting for something related to Cell Max in this recent chapter before commenting this post. Turns out you are right. Cell Max takes quite a beating before adapting his fighting style. Broly adapts much faster.

[ZombieVito]

So people finally came around to Cell Max [No mind control program] > Broly?

Nice.

[Hugo Boss]

So people finally came around to Cell Max [No mind control program] > Broly?

Nice.

Potentially, yes. The reason he isn’t is because he can’t wield his power properly. Super Saiyan Broly would probably finish him off before he had the opportunity to fight back, considering what Goten and Trunks managed in this chapter.

[QuakingStar]

So people finally came around to Cell Max [No mind control program] > Broly?

Nice.

Potentially, yes. The reason he isn’t is because he can’t wield his power properly. Super Saiyan Broly would probably finish him off before he had the opportunity to fight back, considering what Goten and Trunks managed in this chapter.

No he wouldn't. Broly had plenty of time to finish off Frieza and did nothing but continue to beat on him for an entire hour. Cell Max would have adjusted and beaten Broly.

[Hugo Boss]

So people finally came around to Cell Max [No mind control program] > Broly?

Nice.

Potentially, yes. The reason he isn’t is because he can’t wield his power properly. Super Saiyan Broly would probably finish him off before he had the opportunity to fight back, considering what Goten and Trunks managed in this chapter.

No he wouldn't. Broly had plenty of time to finish off Frieza and did nothing but continue to beat on him for an entire hour. Cell Max would have adjusted and beaten Broly.

That’s because Freeza is too durable and was used as plot device to give them time to redo fusion. The way Cell Max is written, he wouldn’t be able to beat Broly unless he was capable of wielding his power properly.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, Broly is more attuned to being a berserker because he already had fighting discipline beforehand and maintained at least a bit of that when he went Super Saiyan.

Meanwhile, Cell Max started out as a berserker without any real proper fighting experience programmed in yet.

[ZombieVito]

No he wouldn't. Broly had plenty of time to finish off Frieza and did nothing but continue to beat on him for an entire hour. Cell Max would have adjusted and beaten Broly.

Freeza is durable as fuck. He survived getting sliced in half, getting blasted by SS Goku and Namek exploding on him.

Hell, after being revived he survived being in literally pieces.

[QuakingStar]

Cell Max is made using Cell's DNA, which has Frieza's DNA. Cell was fully confident he could blow up the Earth and Solar System and he would be just fine. Implicaition is he has the same durability. Cell Max would as well, as only destroying his core would kill him.

[HeroR]

No he wouldn't. Broly had plenty of time to finish off Frieza and did nothing but continue to beat on him for an entire hour. Cell Max would have adjusted and beaten Broly.

Freeza is durable as fuck. He survived getting sliced in half, getting blasted by SS Goku and Namek exploding on him.

Hell, after being revived he survived being in literally pieces.

The problem with this is that a much weaker Toppo did Frieza in within seconds. Jiren also two hit Frieza and knocked him out for several seconds. This is less about Frieza being durable and more about how the entire thing was played for laughs. Like how Satan survived a kicked by Kid Buu.

Cell Max is made using Cell's DNA, which has Frieza's DNA. Cell was fully confident he could blow up the Earth and Solar System and he would be just fine. Implicaition is he has the same durability. Cell Max would as well, as only destroying his core would kill him.

No he wasn't. He made based on Cell's blueprints, not his DNA. If he had Cell's DNA, he would have regenerated his arm nor would he be in his second form. Instead he would have been either Imperfect or Perfect.

[QuakingStar]

No he wouldn't. Broly had plenty of time to finish off Frieza and did nothing but continue to beat on him for an entire hour. Cell Max would have adjusted and beaten Broly.

Freeza is durable as fuck. He survived getting sliced in half, getting blasted by SS Goku and Namek exploding on him.

Hell, after being revived he survived being in literally pieces.

The problem with this is that a much weaker Toppo did Frieza in within seconds. Jiren also two hit Frieza and knocked him out for several seconds. This is less about Frieza being durable and more about how the entire thing was played for laughs. Like how Satan survived a kicked by Kid Buu.

Cell Max is made using Cell's DNA, which has Frieza's DNA. Cell was fully confident he could blow up the Earth and Solar System and he would be just fine. Implicaition is he has the same durability. Cell Max would as well, as only destroying his core would kill him.

No he wasn't. He made based on Cell's blueprints, not his DNA. If he had Cell's DNA, he would have regenerated his arm nor would he be in his second form. Instead he would have been either Imperfect or Perfect.

Cell's Blueprints include what DNA to be used, he was a Bio-Android specifically made using the DNA of others. Cell Max not healing could be something Hedo intentionally removed, same way he intentially added a weak spot and intentionally made the self-destruct radius much smaller. Also, it's very obvious he tweaked the Blueprints, because Cell Max doesn't need to absorb other androids, or have multiple forms like OG Cell did.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The Gammas think Goten and Trunks were pretty good but 2 said pre-wish Piccolo was disappointing.

Does that mean SSJ Boys > Pre-wish Piccolo?

And how strong even was Piccolo? Used to think he was stronger than 17 since he lasted longer against Saganbo, but I’m not sure anymore.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, that whole interpretation about Saganbo's fight has gone out the window ever since the movie had Piccolo being a joke to the blue level Gamma 2.
It never sat well with me to suddenly have weak people be stronger than ever without nothing but two panels to show for. DB was never a show that made the audience read that much between the lines. It was just good teamwork and strategy.

Piccolo being below the teens is a bit too much, though. He's been training non-stop during DBS, and the kids were grounded for the last 6 months. Ok, they have been sparring with the Cell Jrs, but that was probably a one-time thing and those gains must've worn off in the last 6 months.
I'm thinking it's another hint at how important teamwork is for the writing staff, and Goten and Trunks' is what impresses Gamma, and not an actual testament of the teens > Piccolo.

[Yuji]

Toyotaro generally doesn't seem to hold base Piccolo in high regard. He's repeatedly put below SS Goku and Vegeta in the U6 arc and doesn't have any other feats past this point to contradict it. I wouldn't doubt it if he were weaker than the kids, he already was weaker than them in the Boo arc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In the film at least, it seems to follow the anime's overall line of logic of base Gohan and Piccolo being comparable, themselves comparable to base Goku and Vegeta who are far and away above Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten.

[Yuji]

In the film at least, it seems to follow the anime's overall line of logic of base Gohan and Piccolo being comparable, themselves comparable to base Goku and Vegeta who are far and away above Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten.

I don't think Goku and Vegeta got 50x stronger from the Boo arc to Superhero in their base forms to become stronger than the SS kids. They didn't absorb SSG in the manga.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In the film at least, it seems to follow the anime's overall line of logic of base Gohan and Piccolo being comparable, themselves comparable to base Goku and Vegeta who are far and away above Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten.

I don't think Goku and Vegeta got 50x stronger from the Boo arc to Superhero in their base forms to become stronger than the SS kids. They didn't absorb SSG in the manga.

And I explicitly said "anime" and "film", where Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, Piccolo, etc., are generally treated as around as strong as Majin Buu or more in their base forms.

And since we're so close to the End of Z, it makes sense for Goku's base form to be this strong to match up to Uub awakening his latent Pure Buu potential.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku and Vegeta don't have to be 50x stronger, the boys were respectable but nowhere near Goku's power. They're at least a few times weaker in equal forms so it's more like getting 10-20x stronger. Plus Goku was already stronger than Gotenks in BoG.