Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

[Hugo Boss]

Broly’s large base battle power is what makes him equal to Goku and Vegeta in the first place, even with years of battle experience they have ahead of him. From then on, it’s the power of rage that takes him higher. He doesn’t get stronger out of the blue.

I don’t know why you are suggesting Saiyans always keep the power of transformations in their base forms. This only happened in Battle of Gods but the idea was quickly abandoned. Most of the times, Saiyans can get stronger in the middle of the battle but to consistently use that power-up they need to train like everyone else does or transform again.

I honestly don’t see how Goku would trade blows evenly with a Gogeta level opponent. Seems too farfetched.

[miguelnuva1]

Broly’s large base battle power is what makes him equal to Goku and Vegeta in the first place, even with years of battle experience they have ahead of him. From then on, it’s the power of rage that takes him higher. He doesn’t get stronger out of the blue.

I don’t know why you are suggesting Saiyans always keep the power of transformations in their base forms. This only happened in Battle of Gods but the idea was quickly abandoned. Most of the times, Saiyans can get stronger in the middle of the battle but to consistently use that power-up they need to train like everyone else does or transform again.

I honestly don’t see how Goku would trade blows evenly with a Gogeta level opponent. Seems too farfetched.

It's not the power of the transformation he keeps, the transformation unlocks more potential for Broly to grow is what I'm saying.

As for Goku trading with a Gogeta level opponent, he always does that. Jiren is argubly stronger than Vegito Blue and Granolah was stronger than Broly. Whole Goku uses UI he was also using God and Blue.

[Hugo Boss]

Grow in which aspect? I’m not understanding what you are trying to say. Because in the last post you said the base form would grow to make the multiplier of his Great Ape 10x, but that is not what happens in Broly’s case. It only happened with Goku in BoG and RoF. His base form grew stronger, so when he transformed to Super Saiyan Goku became as strong as Super Saiyan God in BoG and his base form grew as strong as Super Saiyan God in RoF.

In Broly’s case his base form was getting stronger in response to the power of Great Ape, much like what Vegeta did with his Super Saiyan form in the beginning of their fight. When those powers aren’t being applied Broly, Goku and Vegeta get back to be equal in their base forms. This is what Super Hero has implied so far. There is nothing in that fight suggesting Broly was stronger than Goku. Whenever Goku is using his base form to fight much stronger opponents, his battle skill is quickly addressed or he adjusts his power using transformations.

[Kaboom]

I'm really confused as to why the structure of nuBroli's power has to be so complicated. The way I see it, he basically just has multiple things that are multiplying his baseline power at the same time, except the "multiplier" for one of them is steadily increasing instead of being static.

Base Form
-- x "Legendary" Factor (Power constantly rising)
-- x "Rage" state (Standard 10-fold Ape boost)
-- x Super Saiyan (Standard 50-fold boost).

I'm still unsure whether or not he went Super Saiyan on top of keeping the 10-fold Ape boost, rather than supplanting it, but since his power just seems to be constantly rising independent of either of them then it doesn't make much difference.

[Hugo Boss]

Why the legendary factor would be separated from the ape boost though? The film doesn’t suggest or imply Broly is increasing his power from multiple sources. The legendary factor rather is inherent to his whole power progression. It allows him to have a super strong base form, equal to Goku and Vegeta with years of fighting experience, and transformations with much larger multipliers than the standards.

[Kaboom]

Maybe I'm just mixing a little bit of head-canon and rewrite material into it, but remember that whole "Saiyans get stronger as they fight" thing that's come up in a few contexts? I figure that one of nuBroli's perks as the Legendary Super Saiyan is that this trait is cranked up to 11 for him. When he finds himself outmatched, he'll just start automatically and rapidly growing stronger to re-surpass whoever he's fighting.

It's been a long time since I actually watched his fights with Goku and Vegeta (and I don't plan to anymore since I deleted my copy), but I remember getting the impression that, one way or another, Broli's power was constantly rising on its own independently of his Ape-in-base ability or anything else he was doing on purpose.

And any way you slice it, it still seems odd to me to assume that "he can channel the power of Great Ape without transforming" would somehow translate to a constantly-increasing power boost, when it's always been treated as a flat multiplicative increase instead. Literally the only one to have a specific numerical "multiplier" assigned to it in the original story itself, even.

[miguelnuva1]

Why the legendary factor would be separated from the ape boost though? The film doesn’t suggest or imply Broly is increasing his power from multiple sources. The legendary factor rather is inherent to his whole power progression. It allows him to have a super strong base form, equal to Goku and Vegeta with years of fighting experience, and transformations with much larger multipliers than the standards.

Vegeta needed SSG to beat vase Broly. Broly is already a lot stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

What I'm saying is

Goku, Vegeta and Broly start at 1. They fight Vegeta goes SS and becomes 50. Broly continues rising untill he hates a wall.

Let's day Broly is 150 and Vegeta as a SS God is 500 as Vegeta passed SS2.

Broly then goes Ikari which is great ape power. Broly's power is now 1500. 150x 10.

Broly's power as a result of getting Ikari now has gotten past his previous wall and grows again.

Goku later turns Blue and beats up Broly.

SSB Goku let's say is 5000 10x SSG and Ikari Brply maxd out as 4000. Base Broly would now be 400 instead of 150 his orginal wall.

Broly then goes SS so the 4000 is now 200k. Goku and Vegeta fused and SS Gogeta is 250k.

SSB Gogeta becomes 25m and Broly.is 10m as a Legendary SS by the end of the fight. Broly's new base form would be 400 instead of 150 where he maxed against Vegeta and he started at 1 in this theory.

Broly does power up as a Legendary super saiyan however and the above numbers are only examples.

[Hugo Boss]

You are forgetting that Broly was using ape boost as soon as he started turning the tables on Vegeta. Multiple times, there is a close in his eyes turning yellow, indicating the ape power is taking effect on him. That’s why I’m not understanding why the ever rising power is being treated as a different factor from it. Perhaps you are just seeing the fight from small clips, but if you watch the movie in its entirety it’s very clear the ape factor is what makes him constantly rise his power. There are hints hidden in the fight, so that when the transformation starts it’s revealed why his power is always increasing.

I don’t have any problem with it not being a flat multiplicative increase, because the situation with Broly is atypical. His limit was so high that he needed stimulus ala Goku and Kefla in the anime to use his full power. Broly’s Super Saiyan form is even stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta when he reaches his full power, again the ape factor being present here. You can even see a small glimpse of the Oozaru when Broly completes his Super Saiyan form, much like Dragon Ball GT does with SS4 in some occasions.

[QuakingStar]

You are forgetting that Broly was using ape boost as soon as he started turning the tables on Vegeta. Multiple times, there is a close in his eyes turning yellow, indicating the ape power is taking effect on him. That’s why I’m not understanding why the ever rising power is being treated as a different factor from it. Perhaps you are just seeing the fight from small clips, but if you watch the movie in its entirety it’s very clear the ape factor is what makes him constantly rise his power. There are hints hidden in the fight, so that when the transformation starts it’s revealed why his power is always increasing.

I don’t have any problem with it not being a flat multiplicative increase, because the situation with Broly is atypical. His limit was so high that he needed stimulus ala Goku and Kefla in the anime to use his full power. Broly’s Super Saiyan form is even stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta when he reaches his full power, again the ape factor being present here. You can even see a small glimpse of the Oozaru when Broly completes his Super Saiyan form, much like Dragon Ball GT does with SS4 in some occasions.

Yeah, sort of agree. Broly hit a wall vs SSG Vegeta, again vs SSB Goku, and again vs SS Gogeta, and again vs SSB Gogeta whereas he was no longer getting stronger after the last power-up with the novel even saying he went back down to blond SS. Great Ape is indeed a huge factor in the increase. GT introduced the idea that at least Golden Great Apes continue to get stronger while they are in that form, I'm thinking DBS adopted it somewhat.

https://i.imgur.com/QiA9zGA.png

https://i.imgur.com/0ezOF0H.png

https://i.imgur.com/xbj4LkX.png

Super Saiyan 4 seems to be essentially the Potential Unleashed of the Golden Great Ape form, described as a an evolution of it and a further transformation from it.

[QuakingStar]

Well, Ultra God Mission Chapter 20 showed more of SS4's power. Goku Xeno and Goku had a final, all out battle. They were equals until Goku used SSGod, then Goku Xeno uses SS4 to overpower SSGod which makes Goku use Super Saiyan Blue and it is shown again that SS4 and SSBlue are equal. They both then switch to SS4LB vs UI-Sign and are equal again. It isn't until MUI is involved that the fight ends and it ends with both of them equally bruised and equally exhausted.

So just like I thought, SS4 brings the same level of power that SSB brings to the user and it kind of makes sense since SS4 uses the users Potential as well and we see how far that brought Gohan and Piccolo with PU, as they are both Blue level in Super Heroes.

What surprised me was the power of SS4LB, being equal to UI-Signs power, that was very cool imo

[miguelnuva1]

Well, Ultra God Mission Chapter 20 showed more of SS4's power. Goku Xeno and Goku had a final, all out battle. They were equals until Goku used SSGod, then Goku Xeno uses SS4 to overpower SSGod which makes Goku use Super Saiyan Blue and it is shown again that SS4 and SSBlue are equal. They both then switch to SS4LB vs UI-Sign and are equal again. It isn't until MUI is involved that the fight ends and it ends with both of them equally bruised and equally exhausted.

So just like I thought, SS4 brings the same level of power that SSB brings to the user and it kind of makes sense since SS4 uses the users Potential as well and we see how far that brought Gohan and Piccolo with PU, as they are both Blue level in Super Heroes.

What surprised me was the power of SS4LB, being equal to UI-Signs power, that was very cool imo

SS4 equals Blue now because Bandai marketed the forms like that for a cool battle. When Heroes first started Xeno Goku admitted Blue was as step above SS4.

If we go by the perfect files and BOG

SSG Ritual> SS Potara fusion= SS4.

[QuakingStar]

Well, Ultra God Mission Chapter 20 showed more of SS4's power. Goku Xeno and Goku had a final, all out battle. They were equals until Goku used SSGod, then Goku Xeno uses SS4 to overpower SSGod which makes Goku use Super Saiyan Blue and it is shown again that SS4 and SSBlue are equal. They both then switch to SS4LB vs UI-Sign and are equal again. It isn't until MUI is involved that the fight ends and it ends with both of them equally bruised and equally exhausted.

So just like I thought, SS4 brings the same level of power that SSB brings to the user and it kind of makes sense since SS4 uses the users Potential as well and we see how far that brought Gohan and Piccolo with PU, as they are both Blue level in Super Heroes.

What surprised me was the power of SS4LB, being equal to UI-Signs power, that was very cool imo

SS4 equals Blue now because Bandai marketed the forms like that for a cool battle. When Heroes first started Xeno Goku admitted Blue was as step above SS4.

If we go by the perfect files and BOG

SSG Ritual> SS Potara fusion= SS4.

It's called a retcon, they happen all the time.
Like how base Fusion Dance and base Potara Fusion now shits on SSG in DBS as we see with Kale and with Gogeta and how Potara now shared the same formula with Fusion Dance which is A + B x "tens of times".

Also, Herms already did a post on the whole Potara and SS4 thing, he's pretty sure it's based on a hypothetical Vegito since it's treating Vegito as a form for Goku.

That would mean a GT Vegito who could possibly use SS3 since Goku could, and back at that time the formula for Potara was still AxB + the unusual boost from Goku and Vegeta being rivals.

Either way it doesn't matter though because retcons happened.

So whether anybody likes it or not SS4 = SSB, and SS4LB = UI-Sign, as is established in the "ultimate final battle" between the two Goku's.

[Hugo Boss]

So whether anybody likes it or not SS4 = SSB, and SS4LB = UI-Sign, as is established in the "ultimate final battle" between the two Goku's.

Yeah, I think this is the closest to a definitive conclusion for this long debate. I don’t think we need anything else to discuss, unless you think there is something that needs clarification?

[QuakingStar]

I just think they should talk more about SS4 in a technical and workings sense like they've done with God, Blue, UI and UE. Like does 4 have a stamina drain at all? They've never talked about that.

[miguelnuva1]

Well, Ultra God Mission Chapter 20 showed more of SS4's power. Goku Xeno and Goku had a final, all out battle. They were equals until Goku used SSGod, then Goku Xeno uses SS4 to overpower SSGod which makes Goku use Super Saiyan Blue and it is shown again that SS4 and SSBlue are equal. They both then switch to SS4LB vs UI-Sign and are equal again. It isn't until MUI is involved that the fight ends and it ends with both of them equally bruised and equally exhausted.

So just like I thought, SS4 brings the same level of power that SSB brings to the user and it kind of makes sense since SS4 uses the users Potential as well and we see how far that brought Gohan and Piccolo with PU, as they are both Blue level in Super Heroes.

What surprised me was the power of SS4LB, being equal to UI-Signs power, that was very cool imo

SS4 equals Blue now because Bandai marketed the forms like that for a cool battle. When Heroes first started Xeno Goku admitted Blue was as step above SS4.

If we go by the perfect files and BOG

SSG Ritual> SS Potara fusion= SS4.

It's called a retcon, they happen all the time.
Like how base Fusion Dance and base Potara Fusion now shits on SSG in DBS as we see with Kale and with Gogeta and how Potara now shared the same formula with Fusion Dance which is A + B x "tens of times".

Also, Herms already did a post on the whole Potara and SS4 thing, he's pretty sure it's based on a hypothetical Vegito since it's treating Vegito as a form for Goku.

That would mean a GT Vegito who could possibly use SS3 since Goku could, and back at that time the formula for Potara was still AxB + the unusual boost from Goku and Vegeta being rivals.

Either way it doesn't matter though because retcons happened.

So whether anybody likes it or not SS4 = SSB, and SS4LB = UI-Sign, as is established in the "ultimate final battle" between the two Goku's.

Yeah its a retcon thats what I said. But in the context of when the forms were introduce SSG was clearly stronger.

As for fusion its stronger than SSG that's because the beings using it are beyond God now. The God ritual is still stronger.

The Perfect file is saying the power Goku gets from fusing with Vegito should be around the power he gets on his own from SS4. Anything else doesn't make sense. SS4 craps over Z Vegito.

I also don't have a problem with SS4= SSB I just think it needs to be made clear this a new. What fans like to do is take something like this heroes manga and then pretend it implies to GT as well when clearly it doesn't.

[Hugo Boss]

I just think they should talk more about SS4 in a technical and workings sense like they've done with God, Blue, UI and UE. Like does 4 have a stamina drain at all? They've never talked about that.

On planning stage, it’s supposed to represent Goku with primal power. Only thing about stamina drain that can be said is that they return to normal when receiving large damage, which is a trait of all Super Saiyan forms. Nothing so far suggests it has a considerable stamina cost that they have to worry about, like Ultra Instinct has for example.

[QuakingStar]

So we KNOW that it has barely any stamina drain, if any at all then. Ki wise it seems to work the same as Super Saiyan as well with the user only losing it when they are too low on energy. Unlike SSGod and I assume SSBlue, it does not have any level of health regen.

[sunsetshimmer]

I'd argue SS4 is the most stable form in franchise as Goku could mantain it even when he was unconcious and out of power like he was against Baby. The only villain that managed to beat Goku out of SS4 was Syn Shenron and it was after Goku fought Nuova and Eis before. Other times he lost it was when he tried self destruction and when he was hit by his own Kamehameha X10.

[QuakingStar]

Vs Omega, he lost SS4 as he didn't have the energy to sustain it and Vegeta lost it because of that too. I assume it's like Super Saiyan Fourth Grade from the very start as with SSFG the user is able to maintain it while unconscious.

[miguelnuva1]

Ss4 is wired because when they want it to it acts like SS3. Remember what it did to fusion.