Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Was it even said the series takes place after Super?

It could just be set before Beerus couldn't it?

It’s probably set between the defeat of Majin Boo and Beerus’ awakening, so before Super story arcs.

[ZombieVito]

Was it even said the series takes place after Super?

It could just be set before Beerus couldn't it?

It’s probably set between the defeat of Majin Boo and Beerus’ awakening, so before Super story arcs.

But Shin and Kibito aren't fused.

[Issei189]

Was it even said the series takes place after Super?

It could just be set before Beerus couldn't it?

It’s probably set between the defeat of Majin Boo and Beerus’ awakening, so before Super story arcs.

But Shin and Kibito aren't fused.

Some fans are theorizing that they got defused because of the magic deaging. Anyways, This is all speculation. I wish they gave us an official time placement.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So apparently DBS transformations won't be featured very much in Dragon Ball Daima (Ajay saying "don't hold your breath for DBS transformation stuff especially"), which is good. The power-creep in this series has gone completely unchecked since the Anime ended in 2018. I'm certainly not interested in seeing "True!!! Ultra Instinct" (which is still somehow fodder compared to Beerus).

Since this series is made by Toei and still seems to be in Anime continuity, I wonder if we will see more of the "Saiyan Beyond God" (aka God-level Base form) concept.

They'll probably make Base Saiyans even stronger than they were in the DBS anime, if they are to contend with strong opponents without overtly relying on transformations. They have to, No? If the Saiyans can't rely that much on transformations anymore, then either their opponents will be much weaker than Super opponents or their Base forms will be made stronger.

We might see even more statements of their Base forms being God-level or having some kind of Godly power.

In his statement, Toriyama said the idea was to nerf Goku and co.. I’m expecting them to be Boo Saga levels.

[quote=GreatSaiyaman123 post_id=<a href="tel:1771542">1771542</a> time=<a href="tel:1697211251">1697211251</a> user_id=119016]
One thing is having different events, another is us assuming it’s different just because we didn’t see it. I always saw it the other way around - everybody knows how it goes, so no point in re-retelling.

If you’re talking about RoF, the manga is very specific about what happens differently from the movie and anime, which is the absence of Base Goku vs. Freeza’s final form. We assume it didn’t happen because Whis implies so. What he doesn’t mention I don’t see any reason to assume it happens differently.
[/quote]

You mean the recap in chapter 33ish? Whis specifying what forms Goku used is redundant. He pretty much just says “Everyone fought Freeza’s army until Goku and Vegeta arrived and fought Freeza”.

[Hugo Boss]

You mean the recap in chapter 33ish? Whis specifying what forms Goku used is redundant. He pretty much just says “Everyone fought Freeza’s army until Goku and Vegeta arrived and fought Freeza”.

That’s not what he said.

Whis: “After his army was defeated, Freeza transformed to Golden Freeza, but Goku and Vegeta killed him using Super Saiyan Blue.”

It says Freeza transformed to Golden Freeza after his army was defeated, so he skipped all his forms including his final form. As we know from the movie, Freeza only transforms to Golden Freeza after fighting Goku in a level where Goku has the power of Super Saiyan God.

That way Freeza’s final form trashing Base Caulifla but almost matching Super Saiyan Caulifla makes sense in the manga.

[ZombieVito]

Final Form Freeza is also SS tier in the anime. He transforms to his Golden form to tank SS2 Cabba's attack.

[HeroR]

he was a Bio-Android specifically made using the DNA of others. Cell Max not healing could be something Hedo intentionally removed, same way he intentially added a weak spot and intentionally made the self-destruct radius much smaller. Also, it's very obvious he tweaked the Blueprints, because Cell Max doesn't need to absorb other androids, or have multiple forms like OG Cell did.

Where was that ever stated? Especially when Cell Max used literally none of the Z-Fighters moves.

[QuakingStar]

he was a Bio-Android specifically made using the DNA of others. Cell Max not healing could be something Hedo intentionally removed, same way he intentially added a weak spot and intentionally made the self-destruct radius much smaller. Also, it's very obvious he tweaked the Blueprints, because Cell Max doesn't need to absorb other androids, or have multiple forms like OG Cell did.

Where was that ever stated? Especially when Cell Max used literally none of the Z-Fighters moves.

Cells Blueprints specifiy how to make him. He is a bio-android that is made using the DNA of others. If Cell Max is made using those Blueprints I think it's quite obvious. Hedo did make some purposeful changes as I already listed, in order for Cell Max to be taken care of if need be.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Where do we rank Cell Max in the manga? Toriyama's comment about him should still apply so he should be below Broly.

Ultimate Gohan knocked him on his ass. He couldn't even do that to Saganbo.

I wouldn't even rank Cell Max on the level of regular Moro.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Where do we rank Cell Max in the manga? Toriyama's comment about him should still apply so he should be below Broly.

Ultimate Gohan knocked him on his ass. He couldn't even do that to Saganbo.

I wouldn't even rank Cell Max on the level of regular Moro.

Depends on how Broly is meant to measure up in the manga, seeing as how him and Jiren remain noteworthy measuring sticks alongside the Gods of Destruction.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Well they're weaker than the Transformed Moro.

[Hugo Boss]

Where do we rank Cell Max in the manga? Toriyama's comment about him should still apply so he should be below Broly.

Ultimate Gohan knocked him on his ass. He couldn't even do that to Saganbo.

I wouldn't even rank Cell Max on the level of regular Moro.

Cell Max seems to be able to improve the more he fights, so it’s difficult to tell how far he can go. He certainly is stronger than Orange Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan after his last power-up in chapter #98. I’m not sure how he compares to anyone else besides those two. I think waiting until his arc is complete is the best way to figure out.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Where he stands throughout chapter 98 seems to put him just one step above Orange Piccolo who doesn't seem like he's that far off from Ultimate Gohan.

At best I can see Orange Piccolo and Cell Max being about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta

It does look as though Cell Max will be stronger in chapter 99 though.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the manga actually gave us a very good reason for Cell Max to be "weak". Since he doesn't have a brain, he's struggling to get used to his power and is still learning how to use it. Sure, he's improving, but did he ever reach his peak?

Right off the bat he was already stronger than SSJB levels though. Don't let Goten and Trunks fool you: Even before their combined attack, the Gammas couldn't do anything to him. Like in the movie, Cell's reaction time is trash because of his brain, so the boys could fly around him a bit. He's pretty much a zombie.

[Kazuya Mishima]

The Gammas are only at the level of Ultimate Gohan at best who isn't Super Saiyan Blue level either.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

DBS just likes to use the word “level” very loosely. If SSJG is on the level of the gods, then Gohan can definitely be grouped together with Goku and Vegeta. He’s much closer to SSJB level than to SSJG level.

When they beat Cell, Piccolo will say not even Goku and Vegeta could beat them just like the movie. So I guess UI Goku is supposed to be struggling with that guy.

And if we’re using AT’s line about Cell, why forget him saying Piccolo = Goku and Vegeta?

[Hugo Boss]

From the story perspective that is being adapted, I think the most realistic comparison to make between Gohan, Goku and Vegeta, would be their versions from the Tournament of Power, since Gohan was more or less on the same page as a Super Saiyan Blue from back then. So, in my view, the Gammas being about as strong as Goku and Vegeta from Broly’s movie works just fine.

[QuakingStar]

The Gammas are certainly Super Saiyan Blue level, so is Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo. Ignoring the authors statements and the actual timeline placement of the Arc makes no sense.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Toriyama never said they were Blue level so it's not ignoring anything.

They were shown to be on a level near equal to Ultimate Gohan. In the manga Ultimate Gohan is well below Super Saiyan Blue level.

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama never said they were Blue level so it's not ignoring anything.

They were shown to be on a level near equal to Ultimate Gohan. In the manga Ultimate Gohan is well below Super Saiyan Blue level.

Toriyama probably outlined that the Gammas were on par with Goku and Vegeta from the movies, so it wouldn’t be wrong to say that information comes from him, specially because Super Saiyan Blue has a very wide range across anime, manga and movies. Ultimate Gohan is actually within that range, stronger than Super Saiyan Blue from Broly movie, but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue from Moro arc.