Dragon Ball Daima (2024)

[super michael]

It doesn't matter if Goku completed UI in the ToP, if he can't use it. The evidence that he can't use it is his battle against Broly.
Why without fusion, Goku would lose since he can't use UI.

If Goku can't use UI against Broly, then fighting GoD and Jiren will make no difference.

Goku said it himself that he can't use UI after the ToP. That is a fact for the anime. Then the movies are more evidence.


Goku intelligence has gone down after the ToP, as shown in DBS Super Heroes.

[Vegard Aune]

Guys... You have been repeating the exact same points at each other in the exact same fashion with no variation for at least the last ten pages. I think at this point it's fair to say neither one of you is actually convincing the other.

[Skar]

Why some people dislike this plotline/ending so much? Does it not make the story more complex and interesting?

It would be "nice" if it was as simple as "Trunks wanted to save people with time travel so he should be rewarded", but Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro wanted a slightly more complex plotline, and so it's not that simple. Trunks' time travel created multiple alternate realities and this is considered a terrible danger/crime by the Gods, so Trunks had the to be punished by the storyline.

To be fair, I don't think the ending was intended as complex and more of a gag. Zeno didn't know who they were and he only erased that timeline because he was confused and annoyed by Zamasu. The present timeline that benefited more from the time travel and the U12 time traveler they mentioned were never punished. The new nearly identical timeline that Trunks moved to wasn't punished either since Beerus and Whis helped take care of that Zamasu before Zeno could find out.

[super michael]

Guys... You have been repeating the exact same points at each other in the exact same fashion with no variation for at least the last ten pages. I think at this point it's fair to say neither one of you is actually convincing the other.

The difference is I have proof. Vegeta tells Goku to not hold back and ask were UI is in the final episode. Goku say he can't use it. Then says he was lucky in the ToP, since he can't repeat it.

The movies shows that power is no longer possible for Goku to use in the anime. He can't use UI, even when his opponent is strong.

I have Goku words in the anime and I have the movies as evidence. Anyone that says Goku can use UI after the ToP, that is completely false for the anime.



DBS Manga has completed UI and is able to use UI in ways that Anime Goku can't. Auto hardening is new and Avatar.

[Vegard Aune]

Guys... You have been repeating the exact same points at each other in the exact same fashion with no variation for at least the last ten pages. I think at this point it's fair to say neither one of you is actually convincing the other.

The difference is I have proof. Vegeta tells Goku to not hold back and ask were UI is in the final episode. Goku say he can't use it. Then says he was lucky in the ToP, since he can't repeat it.

The movies shows that power is no longer possible for Goku to use in the anime. He can't use UI, even when his opponent is strong.

I have Goku words in the anime and I have the movies as evidence. Anyone that says Goku can use UI after the ToP isn't true for the anime.



DBS Manga has completed UI and is able to use UI in ways that Anime Goku can't. Auto hardening is new and Avatar.

To be clear: I agree with you. But you've said this like ten times by now. The exact same thing. That whole conversation is demonstrably not getting anywhere.

[super michael]

Guys... You have been repeating the exact same points at each other in the exact same fashion with no variation for at least the last ten pages. I think at this point it's fair to say neither one of you is actually convincing the other.

The difference is I have proof. Vegeta tells Goku to not hold back and ask were UI is in the final episode. Goku say he can't use it. Then says he was lucky in the ToP, since he can't repeat it.

The movies shows that power is no longer possible for Goku to use in the anime. He can't use UI, even when his opponent is strong.

I have Goku words in the anime and I have the movies as evidence. Anyone that says Goku can use UI after the ToP isn't true for the anime.



DBS Manga has completed UI and is able to use UI in ways that Anime Goku can't. Auto hardening is new and Avatar.

To be clear: I agree with you. But you've said this like ten times by now. The exact same thing. That whole conversation is demonstrably not getting anywhere.

I guess you are right, repeating won't change anyone mind. It is for the best to end that conversation.

[Majin Buu]

Those people are crazy because we would still have some important unresolved plot threads like Vegeta and Gohan's potential.

My point is, not seeing Goku master Super Saiyan, and not getting follow up for any of those other plot threads, clearly isn't a deal breaker for those fans.

Also at play is the fact that not everyone agrees on which plot threads are or aren't important enough to get follow up.

In all fairness, I think this is a different situation. In the Namek arc, we had no frame of reference for what a “mastered” Super Saiyan might look like. All we knew was that Goku was a Super Saiyan and he could access that power at will, with no apparent drawbacks beyond the expected battle fatigue from a match with the universe’s other strongest being. The later arcs established that there were higher heights for Goku to reach by training his Super Saiyan forms to peak capacity.

In contrast, you have Ultra Instinct, which both the anime and manga establish as a very volatile and unreliable power that Goku struggles to utilise. Case in point, he spends most of the anime in the beta version of the form and only gets the silver-haired version in the literal last minute of the tournament. He wouldn’t be pushed to use Ultra Instinct at full power again until he met Moro, and even then it was still established that he had some ways to go in terms of incorporating it into his natural fighting style. Super Saiyan never had that problem.

Super Saiyan did function differently, but maybe Goku not being able to use Ultra Instinct at will is simply how it works? Maybe there isn't anything to "master" in terms of using it at will and it just instinctually activates when Goku is pushed to his limit. As for seeing him better incorporate it into his fighting style, I just don't consider not seeing that a big enough loose end to matter much so agree to disagree there.

2. The reason why most people would be ok with the show ending after Frieza because it completes Goku’s character arc from a lowly saiyan warrior to being capable of defeating Frieza. By this point, Goku’s arc is done. If DBZ ended there, it absolutely would be a complete story.

Not in the eyes of people like ZombieVito based on his reply to me, among many other fans that like what the arcs that came after brought to the table.

[Grimlock]

Maybe so, but on a broader level, if it's not a part of their character and it doesn't serve any narrative in some way, there's probably no point trying to force it.
With Pan, there's a solid foundation for being a martial artist.

There's a solid foundation with Marron, both of her parents fight. There's a solid foundation with Bra, her father and brother fight. Now, although I understand that just because they do, doesn't mean everyone needs to fight, but like I also said, it would balance out the male cast. With Uub, Goten, Marron, Trunks, Pan and Bra, that's three men and three women (and two of them wouldn't/couldn't even pull transformations out of their sunshines... Hopefully). It's perfect. That, on top of me not seeing how them remaining background characters serve anything.

Then fellow Toriyama disagrees with you,

Yeah, but fellow Toriyama isn't good writing women anyway. Even the likes of Gine, a proud member of the Saiyan warrior race, who is expected to do what warriors do, can't do it but instead goes on to work with food... We start to see a pattern here once we realize that.

Judging by the series' history, new characters have to show interest in fighting in order to give the slightest indication that they will actually be warriors in future arcs (Pan demonstrates this in EoZ, and in GT she fights alongside Goku and Trunks) When this doesn't happen then the only chance for character X to show any indication that he can become a warrior is if this character has a huge battle potential, so crisis will call it, it's basically what happened to Gohan in the Saiyajin Saga.
But that could be changed, so, idk, don't lose your hope.

That's what I'm waiting for. For them to show interest in fighting. That would require some screentime, though, something Bra and Marron are yet to get.

[Psajdak]

Everyone has a potential.

The only problem is, they aren't Goku.

[super michael]

Maybe so, but on a broader level, if it's not a part of their character and it doesn't serve any narrative in some way, there's probably no point trying to force it.
With Pan, there's a solid foundation for being a martial artist.

There's a solid foundation with Marron, both of her parents fight. There's a solid foundation with Bra, her father and brother fight. Now, although I understand that just because they do, doesn't mean everyone needs to fight, but like I also said, it would balance out the male cast. With Uub, Goten, Marron, Trunks, Pan and Bra, that's three men and three women (and two of them wouldn't/couldn't even pull transformations out of their sunshines... Hopefully). It's perfect. That, on top of me not seeing how them remaining background characters serve anything.

Then fellow Toriyama disagrees with you,

Yeah, but fellow Toriyama isn't good writing women anyway. Even the likes of Gine, a proud member of the Saiyan warrior race, who is expected to do what warriors do, can't do it but instead goes on to work with food... We start to see a pattern here once we realize that.

Judging by the series' history, new characters have to show interest in fighting in order to give the slightest indication that they will actually be warriors in future arcs (Pan demonstrates this in EoZ, and in GT she fights alongside Goku and Trunks) When this doesn't happen then the only chance for character X to show any indication that he can become a warrior is if this character has a huge battle potential, so crisis will call it, it's basically what happened to Gohan in the Saiyajin Saga.
But that could be changed, so, idk, don't lose your hope.

That's what I'm waiting for. For them to show interest in fighting. That would require some screentime, though, something Bra and Marron are yet to get.

I like your idea of Uub, Goten, Trunks, Bra, Pan and Marron being the main focus. As long as the characters are written good, then I don't mind.

Just because a character hasn't shown interest in EOZ to fight, it doesn't mean they stay like that forever.
The humans retired after the Cell Games, yet the were in combat and competition in DBS. Gohan is quit and return so many time to fight and train.


Uub = Already hyped by having Dai Kaioshin and Kid Buu Ki and God Ki.
Bra = Born from SSB Vegeta a great fighter and Bulma who is smart
Pan = Born from Ultimate Gohan and Videl who are both smart and fighters.
Marron = Born from C18 and Kuririn both are fighters and one has unlimited stamina.
Goten = Born from SSJ Goku a great fighter and Chi Chi. Has fusion when there is a hard battle
Trunks = Born from SSJ Vegeta a great fighter and Bulma who is smart. Has fusion when there is a hard battle.


Imagine if they create a 6 way fusion. We know more than 2 people fusion is possible, if they know the right technique. In the Moro chapter the 3 girls from Moro fused into one being.

[Zephyr]

I do agree the ToP would've worked as a good ending since it does kinda come full circle with what was established in BoG. I think the issue is that Broly and SH continue where the ToP left off so they're not like Wrath of the Dragon that's more of a bonus movie taking place after the Buu saga. If the story ended at the ToP, we could've assume Goku's training with Whis was complete and he'll train on his own to use UI like how he improved on techniques he learned from previous masters after finishing his training with them and that Freeza was maybe thankful to be revived so he'll leave them alone. Broly and SH still have Goku training with Whis implying he still has more to learn and Freeza still wanting revenge.

Yeah, the TV anime closes its threads well enough. You could imagine that there will be more stuff happening, with Ultra Instinct and Freeza, but an ending can be open-ended and still be an ending (see: Dragon Ball's ending). Sure, Goku couldn't activate Ultra Instinct at will during the tournament, but when he was sufficiently pushed into a corner, it came through, like 3 times in less than an hour. It not activating during the events of the Broli movie is a problem for the Broly movie, not for the TV anime, insofar as it is a problem at all; maybe Broli was too strong for Super Saiyan Blue to handle, but just not strong enough to sufficiently push Goku enough to activate Ultra Instinct?

The movies after the TV anime ended, though, do open things up again in a way that leaves one wanting for more of a conclusion. Not only are Goku and Vegeta still hanging around Beerus and Whis, but now they're having Broli train there too. It seems like he's being set up to at least learn to control his own full power. And if Goku is being written to not realize that meditation counts as training, then I guess he's being set up to learn too, maybe? I dunno.

If we bring the manga in, then we're definitely set up to have another Goku-Freeza rematch, although I doubt it's going to take the form of a "Black Freeza arc" and/or end with Freeza dead again; I don't think he's going anywhere, but I could be wrong. It also has Goku learn to activate Ultra Instinct at will (in a way resolving a thread the Broli movie opens up, if we want to try and synthesize both continuities), but now it's also spinning its wheels and flip flopping between what the best version of it is and why, re-opening and closing the thread; they can decide it's done whenever they want.

[Psajdak]

Somehow, I don't think Frieza still cares about revenge.

Maybe to be above Zeno, though...

[Rafa Fast]

Did she even do anything for the franchise after SD? If not, then I don't see it happening.

"After" SD? SD is still running, it just got to Trunks killing Freeza this month.

Wait, the fuck? I saw several people saying it was cancelled, I've heard that it still was in the Freeza like arc years ago
I guess that I got confused because the Kanzenshuu page doesn't list the later chapters separately but in volume format only, funny because I almost can't find info on its continuation, the DB wiki itself had no more updates on it so that made me even more convinced about it, sorry for the misinformation lol.
Still, I could only see she making the Daima manga if she took a break from SD.
-
I'm thinking about something, if Toriyama really don't wants to Goku and the others to use transformations in this story, could this tie in with what we see in EoZ? Where Goku and Vegeta supposedly don't see the need to use their transformations anymore? I know that's convenient to assume, but think about it

DBS Broly introduced us Broly, who's likely going to be part of the main cast
Moro made Goku learn on how to control the UI
Granolla made Vegeta achieve the UE
And Super Hero made Gohan and Piccolo achieve their Beast and Orange forms
And let's not forget about Black Freeza

I'm feeling that the plan could be to make all of these characters to use all these new forms for a ultimate battle in the next manga arc that Super is leading to, setting up whatever is going to happen with Beerus and Black Freeza
Then Daima comes and they lose all of their transformations (at least the new ones) so they can go back to square one, so in the next sagas they won't need to care about the characters having astronomical power levels.

Of course considering that Daima takes place after Super Hero and the next Super manga arc.
It would be a good way to end the Super storyline and start a new DB series from Daima imo.
Even though I still think it would be better if Super ends in EoZ.

[Hellspawn28]

As for canon, I don't think everything exist in one big thing. Dragon Ball probably just has mutiple continuites similar to movies like Godzilla, Halloween, Alien & Predator, etc. The way how I view it:

Dragon Ball manga
Original Dragon Ball & Z anime
Dragon Ball GT
Dragon Ball Super anime
Dragon Ball Super manga
Dragon Ball Online
Dragon Ball Heroes
Dragon Ball Xenoverse

Daima will likely be its own thing unless we are told that its a sequel to Super or another midequel.

[dragonballhero]

Why some people dislike this plotline/ending so much? Does it not make the story more complex and interesting?

It would be "nice" if it was as simple as "Trunks wanted to save people with time travel so he should be rewarded", but Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro wanted a slightly more complex plotline, and so it's not that simple. Trunks' time travel created multiple alternate realities and this is considered a terrible danger/crime by the Gods, so Trunks had the to be punished by the storyline.

To be fair, I don't think the ending was intended as complex and more of a gag. Zeno didn't know who they were and he only erased that timeline because he was confused and annoyed by Zamasu. The present timeline that benefited more from the time travel and the U12 time traveler they mentioned were never punished. The new nearly identical timeline that Trunks moved to wasn't punished either since Beerus and Whis helped take care of that Zamasu before Zeno could find out.

Frankly, I think THAT'S why the Zamasu arc's ending infuriates me to no end. Like, Goku and the gang in the "prime" reality constantly screw up and make things worse for nearly everyone involved, yet they (as far as I can remember) almost always have some sort of an "out" to fix said damage. Heck, Goku CHOSE to stay dead after Cell, when the Namekian DBs could have easily brought him back home.

As many of us also know, a good deal of that cast aren't exactly 'altruistic' most of the time. Meanwhile, F. Trunks (who is a great deal more altruistic than said main cast) has lived through an apocalyptic reality where he actually had to really fight to restore peace to his world, yet HIS reality is the one to get screwed over in a way that isn't easily fixable and serves as nothing more than a middle finger to the character and his life???

As for canon, I don't think everything exist in one big thing. Dragon Ball probably just has mutiple continuites similar to movies like Godzilla, Halloween, Alien & Predator, etc. The way how I view it:

Dragon Ball manga
Original Dragon Ball & Z anime
Dragon Ball GT
Dragon Ball Super anime
Dragon Ball Super manga
Dragon Ball Online
Dragon Ball Heroes
Dragon Ball Xenoverse

Daima will likely be its own thing unless we are told that its a sequel to Super or another midequel.

Frankly, I sincerely hope this ends up being the case. Given how Daima feels like THE continuation that Toriyama's wanted to try out ever since GT came up with the concept of "Goku gets turned back into a child", I... actually DO kind of want to see how this plays out. A DB world where the GoDs and Angels might not be a thing, thus toning down the power-creep a fair bit...

[LightBing]

I'm mildly optimistic about this. Mostly from the statement from Toriyama which mentioned exploring a new World and Goku needing to bring out the nyoibõ.
The animation appears good as well, not like Super.

Hope that means a thematic return to older Dragon Ball, focusing on the adventure and martial arts combat.

Everyone turning into children..., well it depends how it's written. It's normal to be concerned that this is yet another nostalgia story.

Low expectations is the best to tackle modern Dragon Ball.

[GhostEmperorX]

There's a solid foundation with Marron, both of her parents fight. There's a solid foundation with Bra, her father and brother fight. Now, although I understand that just because they do, doesn't mean everyone needs to fight, but like I also said, it would balance out the male cast. With Uub, Goten, Marron, Trunks, Pan and Bra, that's three men and three women (and two of them wouldn't/couldn't even pull transformations out of their sunshines... Hopefully). It's perfect. That, on top of me not seeing how them remaining background characters serve anything.

I was referring to something more than bloodlines, genes, or family ties in the first place, something within the characters themselves (like interest or potential). Apparently Pan has been training since a really young age for the most part.

Also, I told you once before that Dragon Ball's problems (and there's many of those) are unique to the series itself, to the point where simply stepping into some other franchise is enough to avoid them almost completely. This just so happens to be one of them, especially when compared to something like your typical fighting game franchise (different medium but DB makes tons of games in it that tend to reflect established media except for when making original characters, where they've at least tried to fix the problem with some new entries).
So I've come to accept that if I'm looking for something I can't find in DB, it's probably best to look elsewhere.

And besides, with Toriyama or whoever else at the helm, it wouldn't be long before those specific characters go the way of Videl or whatever.

[Adamant]

Did she even do anything for the franchise after SD? If not, then I don't see it happening.

"After" SD? SD is still running, it just got to Trunks killing Freeza this month.

Wait, the fuck? I saw several people saying it was cancelled, I've heard that it still was in the Freeza like arc years ago
I guess that I got confused because the Kanzenshuu page doesn't list the later chapters separately but in volume format only, funny because I almost can't find info on its continuation, the DB wiki itself had no more updates on it so that made me even more convinced about it, sorry for the misinformation lol.

It's being published as a Youtube manga now (though still getting regular volume releases once there's enough chapters to fill one, the previous volume came out half a year ago).

Here's the most recent chapter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-e0121-Ivk

[emperior]

I wonder if there will be transformations?

I don’t think they will keep it simple as that, especially considering how we come from Broly and Super Hero which had a lot of fanservice in that regards.

Though I wouldn’t mind it at all if in this series both Goku and Vegeta were to only fight in their base forms, no longer needing transformations to be at their best - like Jiren and other characters.

Maybe their initial sparring could touch upon this aspect. While the manga can build up to this state of things.

But honestly I am expecting a Super Saiyan 4-like transformation. They even brought back the yellow gi for Goku, so the color scheme for SS4 could be similar if it is coming back (Kid Goku, Nakatsuru as CD, yellow gi - all point in that direction).

[Psajdak]

There will be.

Like Devil Goku, or something.