Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

When was UI shown in the movie, though? I honestly cannot remember that.

When Goku was turning Blue it briefly appeared.

Yeah... I'm out.

[picc]

Thinking about Gohan getting to low blue level in the ToP from around SSJ3 level at the end of Z, then Gohan's beast form allegedly being a match for the ultra forms, comparatively, how big was his leap during the cell saga?

Gohan at the Cell Games was stronger as a SSJ than Goku was. This despite Goku having been a SSJ in constant training for no less than 4 years, along with the ROSAT training. Gohan didn't achieve SSJ until the ROSAT, and had I presume at most a few months in the form.

For him to go from base level (in the hundred thousands to at most low millions) to > MSSJ Goku within a few months is pretty nuts. Golden Freeza esque, if not worse.

[ZombieVito]

Thinking about Gohan getting to low blue level in the ToP from around SSJ3 level at the end of Z, then Gohan's beast form allegedly being a match for the ultra forms, comparatively, how big was his leap during the cell saga?

Gohan at the Cell Games was stronger as a SSJ than Goku was. This despite Goku having been a SSJ in constant training for no less than 4 years, along with the ROSAT training. Gohan didn't achieve SSJ until the ROSAT, and had I presume at most a few months in the form.

For him to go from base level (in the hundred thousands to at most low millions) to > MSSJ Goku within a few months is pretty nuts. Golden Freeza esque, if not worse.

Gohan is the most broken character in the series.

For the ToP he went from Boo arc SS3 tier to SSB tier in less than a day. Even more ridiculous in the manga since he did it in less than 1 hour there. He then spent the following years just doing light training and then with a single rage boost surpasses every mortal known in the series.

People always complain about Freeza and 17 all the time but Gohan is literally there. People just need to accept that power gains have never made sense. If Toriyama wanted he can write tomorrow a story about Puar becoming the strongest and he wouldn't care less about people's complaints.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess I can see ToP Gohan being blue level as blue level is indeed a very wide ranging area. In the same way "SSJ" level in Z could technically be Goku on Namek, or Goku vs Cell, even though the two power levels are WILDLY different.

So yeah, Gohan being equal to Kefla I guess made him blue level. And so he's blue level now. But it just seems like a weird designation when we have actual ssjb fighters who are so far superior to him in the current timeline.

I suppose its just matter of perspective though. Oh well.

Personally, with all the "on par" with Goku and Vegeta and Orange Piccolo being "on the same level", I'm still not entirely sure what AT means since he doesn't seem to do nearly the level of analysis we do here -- which could go either way for scaling Gohan and Piccolo to the current meta.

I'm not going to pretend to know exactly how strong they are until we see them and Goku/Vegeta in the same story, with a direct comparison. Which likely won't be for a while, but who knows.

Generally speaking, I think major part of the community knows that Super Saiyan Blue has several nuances to it, considering its large use in almost every story arc of Dragon Ball Super. It’s impossible to not see that Goku has largely improved the form since its debut. That’s obvious and frankly I’m surprised that some people still have a need to point this out every single time someone says character X or Y is Blue level. We know that, okay?

But the point, just to be clearer, if we already weren’t clear enough, is that a comparison that is being made inside the context of the film is not necessarily contracting what Toriyama says outside its context, and, more importantly, one is being made years later than the other. That happens exactly because Goku is always getting stronger and all his forms likely follow that same direction. Context is everything.

Taking that into consideration, do you still find it hard to pinpoint what form makes Goku “meta” relevant? I would say this is exactly what Toriyama wants his audience to think about when he compares these characters to him. It’s just another way of saying, these guys are not just “strong”, they can compete for the title of best warrior in the universe.

[QuakingStar]

There's no other way to put this. Saying Gohan isn't SSB level as Ultimate Gohan in SH is just nonsense, and I cannot respect or take seriously anybody who would act as if that is a fact and not their own headcanon. Toriyama has OPiccolo on par with Goku, promotional infomation for the movie states that Gamma 1 and 2 are the Ultimate Androids(pre-Cell max). Previously that was what 17 was stated to be and he was the strongest Android.

Power-creep, and retcons happen. We have Frieza, 17 and Gohan as examples of that.

[Noah]

Couldn't UI Goku be actually enough to stop Broly? I know the whole thing about not only needing a fusion, it's SSJ form but also Blue to stop was because Broly kept increasing his power non-stop... But I still feel to this day that was pretty much overkill.

[picc]

Generally speaking, I think major part of the community knows that Super Saiyan Blue has several nuances to it, considering its large use in almost every story arc of Dragon Ball Super. It’s impossible to not see that Goku has largely improved the form since its debut. That’s obvious and frankly I’m surprised that some people still have a need to point this out every single time someone says character X or Y is Blue level. We know that, okay?

Very fair.

But the point, just to be clearer, if we already weren’t clear enough, is that a comparison that is being made inside the context of the film is not necessarily contracting what Toriyama says outside its context, and, more importantly, one is being made years later than the other. That happens exactly because Goku is always getting stronger and all his forms likely follow that same direction. Context is everything.

Taking that into consideration, do you still find it hard to pinpoint what form makes Goku “meta” relevant? I would say this is exactly what Toriyama wants his audience to think about when he compares these characters to him. It’s just another way of saying, these guys are not just “strong”, they can compete for the title of best warrior in the universe.

I'm not sure I completely understand your question. Would you mind rephrasing a bit?

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not sure I completely understand your question. Would you mind rephrasing a bit?

Sure. When you take into consideration the context in which a comparison is being made, can’t you tell which form Goku has in that moment that makes him compete for the position of strongest in the universe?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Couldn't UI Goku be actually enough to stop Broly? I know the whole thing about not only needing a fusion, it's SSJ form but also Blue to stop was because Broly kept increasing his power non-stop... But I still feel to this day that was pretty much overkill.

I imagine it's a case where only Broly's sheer raw power and speed can keep up, but Ultra Instinct's precision and reflexes will win out if the form doesn't expire before the big guy can be put down.

[Koitsukai]

I imagine UI Goku would've been enough to put down Broly, from a theoretical perspective. However, that form might not last long enough, or it could be too much for the body.
It could fail, not because it might not be powerful enough, but because Goku hasn't mastered the form, aside of when he turned SSB--ok I cannot even write that with a straight face, dear Dende.
So, I assume Toriyama considered that form would've failed eventually, because after the ToP's finale, I believe what the fandom was hoping the most for was seeing UI again.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Couldn't UI Goku be actually enough to stop Broly? I know the whole thing about not only needing a fusion, it's SSJ form but also Blue to stop was because Broly kept increasing his power non-stop... But I still feel to this day that was pretty much overkill.

I'd say: LSSJ Broly ~ MUI Goku > UIO Goku > SSJ Broly

Problem is, SSJ Broly probably wasn't strong enough to trigger Goku into transforming. Some people think SSJ Broly > Jiren, but this might be evidence of the contrary.

[Kazuya Mishima]

When was UI shown in the movie, though? I honestly cannot remember that.

When Goku was turning Blue it briefly appeared.

Yeah... I'm out.

So the silver haired Goku that was shown was not Ultra Instinct now? Is that really what you've decided to go for? Of all the possible routes to take?

[Kazuya Mishima]

Toriyama has OPiccolo on par with Goku

Orange Piccolo isn't Ultimate Gohan.

promotional infomation for the movie states that Gamma 1 and 2 are the Ultimate Androids(pre-Cell max). Previously that was what 17 was stated to be and he was the strongest Android.

Android 17 wasn't as strong as Goku either.

Power-creep, and retcons happen. We have Frieza, 17 and Gohan as examples of that.

Gohan had neither of those things. He stopped training, he got weaker. He trained and he got stronger. In Super Hero he'd stopped training and therefore would have grown weaker as he did the previous two times.

[Hugo Boss]

So the silver haired Goku that was shown was not Ultra Instinct now? Is that really what you've decided to go for? Of all the possible routes to take?

I’m not sure if this post is being made in bad faith or not, but if it wasn’t clear enough for you. No, it wasn’t Ultra Instinct. It was just Goku transitioning from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan Blue. But honestly, at this point, it just seems that you are trying to misinterpret whatever information is being given to you. Very weird rebuttals like this are becoming a pattern. What is the purpose of this?

[Koitsukai]

When Goku was turning Blue it briefly appeared.

Yeah... I'm out.

So the silver haired Goku that was shown was not Ultra Instinct now? Is that really what you've decided to go for? Of all the possible routes to take?

Am I on the radio... ??? you cannot be real, so please don't quote me ever again.

[ankokudaishogun]

Given what we have seen from other media, it's implied full UI is still the Paragon.
Whis was completely playing with Broly, after all

For the lack of Broly triggering Goku's transformation it's worth to note Goku was never really pushed to the wall in the movie. Hell, he and Vegeta are pretty sure they can manage Broly if they get a senzu.
And the universe isn't really under threat, so much less pressure.
Broly is truly strong, but he's still somebody two full powered Blues could reasonably take on by themselves by collaboration if they don't waste energy and don't get surprised.
(It would likely be exhausting for them but not impossible)

[QuakingStar]

So the silver haired Goku that was shown was not Ultra Instinct now? Is that really what you've decided to go for? Of all the possible routes to take?

I’m not sure if this post is being made in bad faith or not, but if it wasn’t clear enough for you. No, it wasn’t Ultra Instinct. It was just Goku transitioning from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan Blue. But honestly, at this point, it just seems that you are trying to misinterpret whatever information is being given to you. Very weird rebuttals like this are becoming a pattern. What is the purpose of this?

I noticed this already, he's just being obuse on purpose because he seems to have an anti-Gohan agenda. I think it might be best if we all ignore him.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Every SSJ transformation in the movie goes through different colors.

Tbf I can see the Gammas getting smashed by Saganbo, this is a Gohan who hasn’t trained who’s beating Gamma 1. Maybe SH Gohan is stronger because of rage or maybe he trained some more before slacking, maybe not.

All I’m sure of is that these guys would beat 17 and Toppo. That’s a given.

[ZombieVito]

Every SSJ transformation in the movie goes through different colors.

Tbf I can see the Gammas getting smashed by Saganbo, this is a Gohan who hasn’t trained who’s beating Gamma 1. Maybe SH Gohan is stronger because of rage or maybe he trained some more before slacking, maybe not.

All I’m sure of is that these guys would beat 17 and Toppo. That’s a given.

Didn't Gohan get a rage boost against Moro? Maybe it stuck like Goku's against Black and Zamasu.

[Hugo Boss]

Given what we have seen from other media, it's implied full UI is still the Paragon.
Whis was completely playing with Broly, after all

For the lack of Broly triggering Goku's transformation it's worth to note Goku was never really pushed to the wall in the movie. Hell, he and Vegeta are pretty sure they can manage Broly if they get a senzu.
And the universe isn't really under threat, so much less pressure.
Broly is truly strong, but he's still somebody two full powered Blues could reasonably take on by themselves by collaboration if they don't waste energy and don't get surprised.
(It would likely be exhausting for them but not impossible)

I think the most reasonable approach is that Broly wasn’t really trying to end everything like the other antagonists were. From Goku and Vegeta perspective, it was a street fight. The Saiyan trait was much more present in Broly, because that was a battle for survival for him.