Toei's fixation on Goku being the strongest

[Hellspawn28]

I feel like most Goku's victories are done with the help of others or uses other people's power. He didn't use his own power to beat Buu and Super Yi Xing Long because he had to use energy from other sources to win. He would need help against Raditz, Vegeta, Ginyu, Jirn, DBS Broli, and Moro (Uub play a role on Goku beating Moro). In the original 13 DBZ movies and GT, he would have lost to Dr. Urio. Tullece, Lord Slug, Metal Coola, Super #13, DBZ Broli, Janemba, General Rildo, Baby, and Super 17 if he didn't have help.

[Lukmendes]

The Kid Buu thing definitely bothered me because there's no reason to think that's the most powerful Buu. Goku wouldn't even consider fighting Buuhan or Buutenks on his own without trying to fuse but was willing to fight Kid Buu one on one. I'm pretty sure, in the manga at least, when Super Buu showed up inside himself Goku even chastised Vegeta for destroying the potara earring. But no, we are supposed to believe Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and Goku can now keep up with himo with the power of protagonists on his side.

Not only that, once everyone except Fat Buu are freed, Goku comments that Super Buu is still stronger than either him or Vegeta, and after Kid Buu shows up, Goku feels confident in taking him down, so while it's never said directly, given how Goku doesn't even want to fight Super Buu even once he's weakened, but does want to fight Kid Buu, it's clear Super Buu is the stronger one:



(Dragon Ball#506).

[GokuHater]

He did lose to Roshi as his major lost. For the old DBZ movies, he lost to Janemba and had to fuse with Vegeta to beat him.

Was it a major lost though?
I considered his loses as spectacular failures in which he barely escaped alive. So in case of Roshi, while yes, he formally lost the Budokai and there is no arguing that, this wasn't as clear cut that he was destroyed.
Both in fights with Roshi and Tenshinhan it may have ended in a draw but due to something the other side proved victorious.
In Tao and Piccolo it was clear he never stood a chance and was utterly destroyed - that was my reasoning here.

I'd argue there are a few losses you are not considering.
He lost to Yamcha, due to being hungry, but he still lost. IIRC, Yamcha steals the DBs?
He loses to Jackie Chun, loses to Tenshinhan, as well.
I'd say 5 losses in DB.

Yup, technically you are right but the way I counted it, was the times Goku could do nothing and was utterly destroyed like I mentioned above.
Both in Tao and Piccolo fights he could do nothing and was either left nearly dead or assumed dead.
In his fights with Roshi and Tien, off course he lost the tournament both times but for the fights itself, it seemed like "nearly" a draw when something happened (in case of Roshi limbs length, in case of Tien the truck) that made the other side win. A bit fifferent then when Goku was outclassed in every turn.

As for Yamcha also true but the fight ended with him escaping so technically the whole fight didn't end in a lose. The way it ended is Yamcha saw Bulma, got paralysed and ran away.
Would he steal the DB if not Bulma? Probably?
But still we didn't get that. The other day, once Goku was fed and rested, he destroyed Yamcha with a kick if I recall correctly.

The DBS anime has Goku losing to Black twice. In the manga, he pretty much loses to Jiren on their one-on-one fight, but I can see that loss not counting due to them still being able to fight each other some more.

I disagree with Goku not losing to Granola or Gas. Granola literally oneshot him, Goku was distracted, Granny seized the perfect opportunity, whatever, but he still put UI Goku to bed. Granny oneshot him twice before when Goku was using lower forms.
Goku beat Adult Gas but then was destroyed by Old Gas, and Zombie Gas as well. Not to mention what Black Freeza did to the saiyans.
He is a jobber in DBS basically lol.

About GT, I disagre vs Super 17. After the struggle, he lost and was saved by 18. We can make a case for Goku losing due to being stupid as ever, but he still lost.
The same vs Omega, apparently he died and came back. He killed him after he was brought back, but he lost his life first.
Also, vs Rildo he lost as well. We can say it was planned that way, but he still lost, the plan involved Goku losing.
At least 5 losses in GT.

Hm, my list was more of a lose which resulted in the hero being nearly dead, retreating, doing xyz and then returning to another fight.
So at least some time has passed between the first fight and the second and Goku clearly needed to do/achieve something to get stronger.
In Gas, Granolah, Jiren, Omega, Super 17, even Frieza and Vegeta he can be seen as though he lost but the fight isn't technically over and I can't see the line in which one can say "okay, this fight is done, Goku compeletly lost", until another fight starts.

It's true, his allies may have helped him but he kind of just gets back to the same fight and goes along. If we want to count instances like this a loss, sure, it's perfectly functional, I just had a different criteria in mind.

I'd say TOEI has him losing plenty of times, even when Toriyama doesn't. However, Toyotaro and Toriyama are going to town with Loser Goku.
With so many losses, I guess the movies having Goku win kinda balances things out

And that's the bottom line I feel. Hovewer we are counting it, Goku does lose in the original Tori work, in Toei stuff and also in modern DB. So it isn't as clear-cut as the topic author suggested.

Also you have 100% right with Black Frieza and I am not sure how could I have forgotten about him
That's a one sided loss for Goku and Vegeta

[Vhanos]

- He lost to Android 19 fair and square

It took the heart virus to take effect for Android 19 to beat him. Without that, Goku was owning Android 19.

[TheGreatness25]

Goku is the main protagonist and an icon whose drive is to be the strongest--it makes sense that the story would see him accomplishing this goal. What's everyone else's obsession with trying to put Goku in the backseat of his own story?

[JulieYBM]

Goku is the main protagonist and an icon whose drive is to be the strongest--it makes sense that the story would see him accomplishing this goal. What's everyone else's obsession with trying to put Goku in the backseat of his own story?

Well, his story is often the least interesting part of Dragon Ball, so I would imagine that's part of the issue here.

[TheGreatness25]

Goku is the main protagonist and an icon whose drive is to be the strongest--it makes sense that the story would see him accomplishing this goal. What's everyone else's obsession with trying to put Goku in the backseat of his own story?

Well, his story is often the least interesting part of Dragon Ball, so I would imagine that's part of the issue here.

That's subjective. And also, unproven, since there hasn't really been a Dragon Ball story that didn't feature Goku with the exception of the Z TV specials, Gohan's high school arc, and Super Hero. Dragon Ball might be titled "Dragon Ball," but it has always been the story of Goku. It's a little like having a trilogy of Batman movies and being upset that The Joker didn't win in any of them--that's just kind of how it is.

Sure, can the writing take the focus off of Goku and let someone else shine? Of course. But expecting it or getting upset that it's not happening is kind of silly to me. Like, we all knew what we were signing up for--Goku has been the focus of the story since the very beginning and I think enough time has passed for us to see the established trend.

[JulieYBM]

Goku is the main protagonist and an icon whose drive is to be the strongest--it makes sense that the story would see him accomplishing this goal. What's everyone else's obsession with trying to put Goku in the backseat of his own story?

Well, his story is often the least interesting part of Dragon Ball, so I would imagine that's part of the issue here.

That's subjective. And also, unproven, since there hasn't really been a Dragon Ball story that didn't feature Goku with the exception of the Z TV specials, Gohan's high school arc, and Super Hero. Dragon Ball might be titled "Dragon Ball," but it has always been the story of Goku. It's a little like having a trilogy of Batman movies and being upset that The Joker didn't win in any of them--that's just kind of how it is.

Sure, can the writing take the focus off of Goku and let someone else shine? Of course. But expecting it or getting upset that it's not happening is kind of silly to me. Like, we all knew what we were signing up for--Goku has been the focus of the story since the very beginning and I think enough time has passed for us to see the established trend.

Hey, you asked the question. Don't act surprised when the vocal opposition that you don't understand care about their subjective opinion of the other characters' storylines being more entertaining. In Toriyama's attempts to make Gokuu be not a 'hero', he has in fact made his storylines hard to relate to or root for, and that's on him and his static way of thinking.

[super michael]

For a character that isn't supposed to be a hero, Goku sure has done a lot of heroic things in the manga. Sacrificing his life to beat Raditz, so he doesn't kill everyone on earth. Sacrificing his life to prevent Cell from blowing up the earth.

Goku sure didn't like Dr Gero killing innocent people and Cell killing innocent people over the radio.

Lets not forget that Goku was the one that brought back the Dragon Balls, so those that were killed were able to resurrect. No many heroes does that. He even went out of his way to resurrect someone that he just met.

When Goku shows character growth and shows that he is a expert at fighting and training, that is what makes it good. Of course seeing him being naive from time to time isn't a bad thing, as long as they don't go overboard.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Goku is the main protagonist and an icon whose drive is to be the strongest--it makes sense that the story would see him accomplishing this goal. What's everyone else's obsession with trying to put Goku in the backseat of his own story?

I agree with you on the Goku is the hero and main character thing but you missed the fact that Toriyama always wanted him to KEEP improving so he didnt actually let him be the strongest, even at the end. Toriyama wants him to find bigger and better challenges and that cant happen if he does hit a final wall and is the undisputed strongest-

[TheGreatness25]

Well, his story is often the least interesting part of Dragon Ball, so I would imagine that's part of the issue here.

That's subjective. And also, unproven, since there hasn't really been a Dragon Ball story that didn't feature Goku with the exception of the Z TV specials, Gohan's high school arc, and Super Hero. Dragon Ball might be titled "Dragon Ball," but it has always been the story of Goku. It's a little like having a trilogy of Batman movies and being upset that The Joker didn't win in any of them--that's just kind of how it is.

Sure, can the writing take the focus off of Goku and let someone else shine? Of course. But expecting it or getting upset that it's not happening is kind of silly to me. Like, we all knew what we were signing up for--Goku has been the focus of the story since the very beginning and I think enough time has passed for us to see the established trend.

Hey, you asked the question. Don't act surprised when the vocal opposition that you don't understand care about their subjective opinion of the other characters' storylines being more entertaining. In Toriyama's attempts to make Gokuu be not a 'hero', he has in fact made his storylines hard to relate to or root for, and that's on him and his static way of thinking.

"Vocal opposition that don't understand"? Um... okay? Before we start discussing what I do and don't understand, my point remains that it just kind of seems like people are choosing to have a gripe about something that is unlikely to change. Rather then say, "I'm not a fan of the series" or "I'm not a fan of where the series is going," there's almost an expectation of the series changing its fundamentals to conform to some "fans'" desires and that just seems naive and silly to me.

Goku is the main protagonist and an icon whose drive is to be the strongest--it makes sense that the story would see him accomplishing this goal. What's everyone else's obsession with trying to put Goku in the backseat of his own story?

I agree with you on the Goku is the hero and main character thing but you missed the fact that Toriyama always wanted him to KEEP improving so he didnt actually let him be the strongest, even at the end. Toriyama wants him to find bigger and better challenges and that cant happen if he does hit a final wall and is the undisputed strongest-

I mean, he hits a wall and then he overcomes. I'm not saying it's spectacular writing, but I don't think that it would magically be better if someone is stronger than Goku.

[Cure Dragon 255]

That's subjective. And also, unproven, since there hasn't really been a Dragon Ball story that didn't feature Goku with the exception of the Z TV specials, Gohan's high school arc, and Super Hero. Dragon Ball might be titled "Dragon Ball," but it has always been the story of Goku. It's a little like having a trilogy of Batman movies and being upset that The Joker didn't win in any of them--that's just kind of how it is.

Sure, can the writing take the focus off of Goku and let someone else shine? Of course. But expecting it or getting upset that it's not happening is kind of silly to me. Like, we all knew what we were signing up for--Goku has been the focus of the story since the very beginning and I think enough time has passed for us to see the established trend.

Hey, you asked the question. Don't act surprised when the vocal opposition that you don't understand care about their subjective opinion of the other characters' storylines being more entertaining. In Toriyama's attempts to make Gokuu be not a 'hero', he has in fact made his storylines hard to relate to or root for, and that's on him and his static way of thinking.

"Vocal opposition that don't understand"? Um... okay? Before we start discussing what I do and don't understand, my point remains that it just kind of seems like people are choosing to have a gripe about something that is unlikely to change. Rather then say, "I'm not a fan of the series" or "I'm not a fan of where the series is going," there's almost an expectation of the series changing its fundamentals to conform to some "fans'" desires and that just seems naive and silly to me.

Goku is the main protagonist and an icon whose drive is to be the strongest--it makes sense that the story would see him accomplishing this goal. What's everyone else's obsession with trying to put Goku in the backseat of his own story?

I agree with you on the Goku is the hero and main character thing but you missed the fact that Toriyama always wanted him to KEEP improving so he didnt actually let him be the strongest, even at the end. Toriyama wants him to find bigger and better challenges and that cant happen if he does hit a final wall and is the undisputed strongest-

I mean, he hits a wall and then he overcomes. I'm not saying it's spectacular writing, but I don't think that it would magically be better if someone is stronger than Goku.

Again you didnt get the point of the thread, Toriyama wants what you said, for Goku to find a new challenge and overcome, for eternity. Toei wants for Goku to be the strongest period. No new challengers.

[super michael]

Here is another thing, Goku realized the truth on how Grandpa Gohan died, without anyone telling him. He realized the monster that killed him was himself. That is how smart Goku used to be in Dragon Ball, written by Toriyama.
We don't see that from Goku nowadays in Toei anime of DBS.

Nowadays Goku has to be dumb and clueless about everything, including the things that he should be good at.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Could this have been a factor for Toei to keep setting power-ups and stronger fights?

[Anonymous Friend]

Again you didnt get the point of the thread, Toriyama wants what you said, for Goku to find a new challenge and overcome, for eternity. Toei wants for Goku to be the strongest period. No new challengers.

I can't recall any instance of a new threat showing up, Goku rolling in and just instantly curb stomping them.