If faced with the choice of sacrificing the franchise's massive popularity

[Cure Dragon 255]

Ok then, I want to apologize for strawmanning people, to be honest I did it deliverately so people WOULD immediately reject the idea of going so far and I am glad everyone did reject the idea of going THAT far. Thank you everyone.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super brought us a pleathora of cool new characters and storylines, it's not it's fault that it suffers from the same dumb shit that the original comic and cartoons did, only amplified by a lack of anyone in a position of power putting their foot down and actually making decisions intended to create a serious work. I find the "I'd gladly erase the existence of..." crowd to be overwrought children in this regard, mostly because they're incapable of having nuanced opinions on the subject, and are probably just having this position because they feel some sort of powerlessness elsewhere in their life and taking it out on a cartoon/comic franchise.

Anyway, my opinion is that Kale, Caulifla, Ribrianne, Zamasu, Gokuu Black, Broli, Cheelai, and Jiren are really cool and I think that it's a terrible shame to see Dragon Ball Super as anything but what it really is: a flawed but interesting series that can be improved upon, but it otherwise not a failure because, uh, hair colors or something.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Dragon Ball Super brought us a pleathora of cool new characters and storylines, it's not it's fault that it suffers from the same dumb shit that the original comic and cartoons did, only amplified by a lack of anyone in a position of power putting their foot down and actually making decisions intended to create a serious work. I find the "I'd gladly erase the existence of..." crowd to be overwrought children in this regard, mostly because they're incapable of having nuanced opinions on the subject, and are probably just having this position because they feel some sort of powerlessness elsewhere in their life and taking it out on a cartoon/comic franchise.

Anyway, my opinion is that Kale, Caulifla, Ribrianne, Zamasu, Gokuu Black, Broli, Cheelai, and Jiren are really cool and I think that it's a terrible shame to see Dragon Ball Super as anything but what it really is: a flawed but interesting series that can be improved upon, but it otherwise not a failure because, uh, hair colors or something.

Uhhhhhh... this is a great post but I dont see what this has to do with this thread lol.

[DanielSSJ]

Throw in a uncensored, Kanzenban-quality release of the manga with an updated translation, and you got yourself a deal

[GhostEmperorX]

Throw in a uncensored, Kanzenban-quality release of the manga with an updated translation, and you got yourself a deal

Sure, since the VIZ Manga translations apparently had problems here & there that's definitely one of the things that falls under at least one of the points mentioned.

[ABED]

Why would I care how popular it is?

[GhostEmperorX]

Why would I care how popular it is?

Pardon me, but I'm not sure if you understood what it is I was getting at beyond that one term. I only used the word as a stand in for everything else that came as a direct result of it because I didn't want the title to be too long.
You're probably one of the last people I should even be typing this in front of, but it's what has unquestionably led to a lot of problems with it on the official side alone, to say nothing of anything outside of that.

[Dbzfan94]

I’d sacrifice all of modern DB purely for removing all the misinformation

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I’d sacrifice all of modern DB purely for removing all the misinformation

The misinformation was there before all the revival era content. For English-speaking fans we're no worse off with Kai, Super and the last four movies, I'd argue things are better because those instalments have more accurate dubs.

[GhostEmperorX]

The misinformation was there before all the revival era content.

And in fact it's the worst strain of it. I remember browsing the internet for the first time looking for DB content (this was when Kai was just starting to be a thing), and a _lot_ of things were false now that I look back (and the Fandom Wikia is in no small part responsible for it).
Even official productions like video games.

Guess that's just what terrible presentations of the series will do.

[ABED]

Why would I care how popular it is?

Pardon me, but I'm not sure if you understood what it is I was getting at beyond that one term. I only used the word as a stand in for everything else that came as a direct result of it because I didn't want the title to be too long.
You're probably one of the last people I should even be typing this in front of, but it's what has unquestionably led to a lot of problems with it on the official side alone, to say nothing of anything outside of that.

I don’t know what you are implying with the beginning of the second paragraph but I take the purpose of the thread to mean would we give up the show being more popular if it got us certain things we want but aren’t as popular like better quality releases or a definitive end. If so my answer remains that I don’t care how much more popular the show is, I want good releases of the show. I wish DB wasn’t an afterthought. I’m aware that DBZ is the more popular show but I don’t work for Toei. I just want a good release of the original show. I want a quality dub.

[GhostEmperorX]

I don’t know what you are implying with the beginning of the second paragraph but I take the purpose of the thread to mean would we give up the show being less popular if it got us certain things we want but aren’t as popular like better quality releases or a definitive end.

I mean that you're one of the longtime people around here who have probably heard it enough times ad nauseam to be tired of hearing it again at this point (even more so because you know it already).
But yes the question of the thread is something along those lines.

If so my answer remains that I don’t care how much more popular the show is, I want good releases of the show. I wish DB wasn’t an afterthought. I’m aware that DBZ is the more popular show but I don’t work for Toei. I just want a good release of the original show. I want a quality dub.

Yes, but for whatever reason it looks like we can't have both with this series the way things are now. And the sad part is just how easily avoidable a lot of these problems were.
Which is what I think motivated the question the most. What would people give up in exchange for all that, some of which was even a bare minimum standard.

[JulieYBM]

I’d sacrifice all of modern DB purely for removing all the misinformation

If I might impart the wisdom that I have accumulated over 25 (twenty-five) years in fandom: The misinformation can't hurt you if you simply ignore it.

[TheGreatness25]

I would not sacrifice its popularity. Primarily because I think its popularity contributed a lot to what we have. If it wasn't popular, would Dragon Ball ever get past that initial Pilaf arc? Would we ever get Z? Would we get video games? Would we get the anime boom (in the US particularly) that we got? So many people enjoyed so much about it, that I really don't care and having the perfect release. For what? Who's to say I'd even like the series if it wasn't for its popularity?

[GhostEmperorX]

I would not sacrifice its popularity. Primarily because I think its popularity contributed a lot to what we have. If it wasn't popular, would Dragon Ball ever get past that initial Pilaf arc? Would we ever get Z? Would we get video games? Would we get the anime boom (in the US particularly) that we got? So many people enjoyed so much about it, that I really don't care and having the perfect release. For what? Who's to say I'd even like the series if it wasn't for its popularity?

I should probably state that the franchise from DB to GT would still exist as is, but would not have been on quite the same level of an international phenomenon that it is which means that the people in charge of it wouldn't have something they can be lazy about producing without consequences.

[MasenkoHA]

I would not sacrifice its popularity. Primarily because I think its popularity contributed a lot to what we have. If it wasn't popular, would Dragon Ball ever get past that initial Pilaf arc? Would we ever get Z? Would we get video games

I assume GhostEmperorX was more talking about it's international popularity than domestic popularity in Japan.


But also

Would we get the anime boom (in the US particularly) that we got?

I don't know how many times it needs to be stated on this forum. Dragon Ball is not responsible for the anime boom in the U.S. The anime boom predates Dragon Ball with the relative success of titles like Akira and Ghost in the Shell. The Sci-fi Channel had its own anime block in 1995.

Even if you're hyperfocusing on kids media we still had Pokemon and Sailor Moon whose popularity in the States predates when DBZ REALLY took off. With 100 percent confidence we can guarantee that if DBZ never came to the States, or didn't take off, the anime boom would have still happened.

[90sDBZ]

I know it is frustrating to see Dragon Ball treated in such a subpar manner... but I think this way of thinking is INCREDIBLY selfish. People here are saying "Oh the people who want Dragon Ball to be popular are just atention whores who want THEIR franchise to be the most popular thing.The franchise not being popular is no harm at all." What about the people it made happy? What about the people it inspired? What about the people who suffered and pulled through because of it? They are cheap collateral damage done by Funimation that should be done away with? They dont matter?

I agree with you completely on this.

It is a selfish mentality to have. People being willing to do away with the widespread positive impact of the franchise, just so they and the rest of the 1% can enjoy it more. Many of us wouldn't even be on this site in the first place without said popularity.

A couple of people mentioned that something else would have had the same impact had DB not become popular. This is a flimsy argument at best. One Piece is the franchise that is most comparible to DB in terms of success and impact, and even that hasn't taken off in English speaking countries anywhere near the way DB has.

If it wasn't Dragon Ball, some other massively successful property would have come along to fill the void for those people.

We don't know that though. Dragon Ball appeals to people the way it does for specific reasons - the artstyle (unique to Japan), the theme of never giving up (sure you can find it in other media but I would argue its not as profound as it is in battle shounen, and it was Dragon Ball that inspired generations of anime and manga like it) and the iconic moments (again other media may have it, but I'd struggle to think of much in animation that compares to Goku punching through Piccolo Daimao, the first Super Saiyan transformation, the Father-Son-Kamehameha, etc).

And sure you can say as a huge Dragon Ball fan I'm biased, but we can say quite confidently a large portion of anime fans credit Dragon Ball as their introduction to the medium, so there's probably a high chance a lot of them wouldn't have got into it if they weren't exposed to Dragon Ball. Would a certain percentage have got into anime through other series? Sure, but it's unlikely as many people would have got into Dragon Ball through other anime, because, again Dragon Ball inspired many of its contemporaries like Naruto, Bleach, etc that were other peoples introductions.

Exactly. The universal appeal of DB is rare, and shouldn't be taken for granted.

I watched lots of shows and movies growing up, many of which I was obsessed with at the time. But nothing kept me coming back again and again and again the way DB has throughout my entire life. There are other shows from my childhood that I'll occasionally rewatch, and then forget about again for a few years. There are shows I've gotten into more recently that I've fallen in love with. But DB has been that one constant throughout my life, and nothing really compares to it.

In terms of emotional impact and inspiration, the closest anything else has come would probably be the Rocky movies. I first saw them as a teenager, and at the age of 31 they remain my favourite movies of all time. They too have a similar universal appeal to DB, although maybe not quite as much for younger kids.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

In terms of emotional impact and inspiration, the closest anything else has come would probably be the Rocky movies. I first saw them as a teenager, and at the age of 31 they remain my favourite movies of all time. They too have a similar universal appeal to DB, although maybe not quite as much for younger kids.

I'm very much the same with Star Wars, which I got into as a teenager, and can still watch to this day and be blown away by. It has a lot in common with Dragon Ball when it comes to the theme of hope and working hard to overcome adversity, and has had a similar impact on Hollywood by inspiring filmmakers since the 70s who may not have been as enthralled by cinema had they not seen the original trilogy. Even people who are not in the film industry like myself and several friends have gained a much greater appreciation by simply watching Star Wars. Its interesting that Akira Toriyama is a huge fan too.

Rocky is a great series too, probably the best rags to riches story ever told, and I can definitely see how anyone would be inspired by the titular character, he's the ultimate underdog that shows anyone who trains hard can turn their life around.

[ABED]

I know it is frustrating to see Dragon Ball treated in such a subpar manner... but I think this way of thinking is INCREDIBLY selfish. People here are saying "Oh the people who want Dragon Ball to be popular are just atention whores who want THEIR franchise to be the most popular thing.The franchise not being popular is no harm at all." What about the people it made happy? What about the people it inspired? What about the people who suffered and pulled through because of it? They are cheap collateral damage done by Funimation that should be done away with? They dont matter?

To be honest, I think the premise isnt actually so bad, give one thing for another. This is sound. But this is a false binary. In Latin America Dragon Ball was dubbed well, respectfully, other than some mistakes and mistranslations its one the best dubs for the franchise. The idea that's either Funimation whoring out the show or more "respectful and principled obscurity". No. Dragon Ball would have been just as succesful had it been dubbed respectfully.

And before you say "Oh I didnt say that! That's a strawman!" I admit. It is. It is a showing of what happens when you take your argument to the extreme, I am hoping people see this and examine if they REALLY want to think that way.

And if you want to actually give Dragon Ball the treatment it deserves you should try and do it. AB Groupe used to be "French 4Kids" and now the make the best releases of the show. How? The company got taken over by actual fans.

But how popular it is shouldn't be anyone else's concern. Sure, I do enjoy when i can connect with others about art we both enjoy, but first and foremost, it has to work for me. If it doesn't, then it's a moot point. It's selfish and I'm more than okay with that. It doesn't mean I don't value others, just that my life is my priority. What people watch or read and enjoy isn't my concern, nor is it yours.

Obviously it's a false alternative as there's very little reason to believe that if the show were treated better, not the best, just better, that it wouldn't still find a massive audience.

Let me put this in concrete terms. If the Orange Bricks and all of their changes lead to more people being exposed to DBZ than if they had done a competent (not even a great, just good enough) release, I would have zero issue in saying that I don't care if a bad release is responsible for more watching the show. They aren't my priority. Watching the show as it ACTUALLY was meant to be seen means far more to my life than more fans of an already popular show. The images ruined by a horrible automated restoration process and removing a significant portion of the images just bc some hate black bars and want the video to take up their whole TV screen, hurt the show in very real ways for me. I'm not alone in this.

[GhostEmperorX]

Good official treatment is the standard for numerous other IP's from similar time periods and many other studios/companies, just not this one for whatever reason. That's the main point of this particular topic. It would go a long way to solving numerous critical problems surrounding it.

And another thing, as someone who has now been on both sides of this particular fandom's divide at different points in time (about 9 years ago for me, when the first version I watched was a thoroughly mutilated one and it was only Z that was being promoted everywhere I looked), there is absolutely nothing more that I'd want than for this whole abysmal situation to just disappear completely. Not one justification exists for this state of affairs. If you're on one side, you get labeled as this, if you're on another, you get labeled as that, something I have not had to witness or experience with most or any of the other things I moved on to at anywhere near the same degree. And at one time I had no idea whatsoever just how shattered the whole situation is, and that's on either side (look no further than the BA Wars chronicles on the JP version side of things, or even how people can't comprehend the series actually looking the best it can be). There's a lot of tunnel vision in general on one topic or the other.

Tell me, would you have just about any of these issues had the company in charge just done the literal bare minimum of efficient handling?

So I frankly don't understand any attempts being made to morally guilt-trip anyone who at the end of the day simply wants better standards applied here as they are almost everywhere else. And I don't care what has to go, whether I feel partial towards it or not. That's, again, why this is being referred to as a sacrifice.