If faced with the choice of sacrificing the franchise's massive popularity

[90sDBZ]

And another thing, as someone who has now been on both sides of this particular fandom's divide at different points in time (about 9 years ago for me, when the first version I watched was a thoroughly mutilated one and it was only Z that was being promoted everywhere I looked), there is absolutely nothing more that I'd want than for this whole abysmal situation to just disappear completely. Not one justification exists for this state of affairs. If you're on one side, you get labeled as this, if you're on another, you get labeled as that, something I have not had to witness or experience with most or any of the other things I moved on to at anywhere near the same degree. And at one time I had no idea whatsoever just how shattered the whole situation is, and that's on either side (look no further than the BA Wars chronicles on the JP version side of things, or even how people can't comprehend the series actually looking the best it can be). There's a lot of tunnel vision in general on one topic or the other.

It sounds to me like your primary issue is the dub changes, and the fact people actually like that version.

I can understand the frustrations with the home video releases, but this whole narrative about the dub being solely responsible for toxic fans being toxic has never sat right with me.

The divide in the fanbase only becomes an issue when you choose to engage with toxic people, who are a minority, and in most cases would act that way regardless. There's plenty of fans out there who aren't judgemental assholes, and are happy to let you enjoy whatever version without labelling you for it.

If anyone takes issue with fans simply enjoying the dub, to the point that it ruins their own enjoyment of the franchise, then they're taking the situation too seriously and making an issue were there isn't one. Like just watch your preferred version and enjoy it, and don't worry about anyone who doesn't.

People who act like this divide in the fandom is the end of the world and needs to be "erased for the greater good" are being over dramatic, and are ironically taking a franchise that doesn't take itself too seriously way too seriously.

[ABED]

Toxic fandom is the way of the world, sadly. I don't think it's inherently the result of anything done to the series as much as it seems like a natural consequence of fandom.

[Cure Dragon 255]

So I frankly don't understand any attempts being made to morally guilt-trip anyone who at the end of the day simply wants better standards applied here as they are almost everywhere else. And I don't care what has to go, whether I feel partial towards it or not. That's, again, why this is being referred to as a sacrifice.

I dont get why this is here if I and others had already conceded that its not wrong to want better for the franchise and its an innocent question... Until you said this. Not only is your wording here nonsensical because this WONT BE A SACRIFICE to anyone who doesnt care about the popularity and only about the quality of the treatment. And if any objection to this is "Moralizing Guiltripping" then this thread is an echo chamber. In fact I would say that there are people that feel popularity is immoral somehow then the people clamoring for "Artistic principled obscurity" is JUST as moralizing if not guilt trippy.

EDIT: Scratch that IT IS guilt trippy. You ARE guilt tripping. Me and others objected and you went and said "Oh you are trying to guilt trip us!" and so are you.

[GhostEmperorX]

I dont get why this is here if I and others had already conceded that its not wrong to want better for the franchise and its an innocent question...

Sorry if you got the wrong impression, but with that I wasn't even necessarily referring to your specific comments (as I hadn't replied directly to them after you made that concession). Or even the ones that said initially that depriving people of that experience wasn't something that they would do (which, believe it or not, I do respect).
What I was speaking of is if that's actually happening, which I thought was the case due to the post above that last reply.

I'm not specifically against you, or even dissenting opinions on the matter. I only would not like if any negative epithets were thrown around needlessly.

It sounds to me like your primary issue is the dub changes, and the fact people actually like that version.

Not really, but since you referenced it, I felt that my own position on that matter needed to be addressed as I wasn't always on one particular side and a lot of info is new to me.

Actually, I never did mention this here (again, due to fear of labels), but I do have numerous moments in it that I like or don't otherwise have a problem with, along with how they go with that replacement score in the moment, both regarding accurate and inaccurate ones. It's only recently and with critical analysis that I came to find out about certain problems it has because I never had the frame of reference that a lot of its critics had.
I mean, just in 2020 I had already put a bad taste in the mouth of one of the most significant members of this site without knowing who he was or that he had far more knowledge of the subject than I ever could due to his really close proximity to it, as I was completely clueless.

After spending the last few years actually collecting (and scanning, documenting, etc) material from his own country for the first time ever, I have a lot of regrets about what I used to say during that time, seeing how I had no idea what it is I was talking about at all. And I don't know if I can fix that sort of situation.

Also, regarding the first reason, it's why I don't really make threads specifically about the ENG version here even if I have something in it that I may find to be interesting.

I can understand the frustrations with the home video releases, but this whole narrative about the dub being solely responsible for toxic fans being toxic has never sat right with me.

The divide in the fanbase only becomes an issue when you choose to engage with toxic people, who are a minority, and in most cases would act that way regardless. There's plenty of fans out there who aren't judgemental assholes, and are happy to let you enjoy whatever version without labelling you for it.

Barring more small/niche areas, it seems to be an issue almost everywhere I look on the internet, and mostly what I first encountered on it a long time ago (when I knew far less than I do now). And it's more so the confusion it has resulted in, since this means going back and reviewing everything.

If anyone takes issue with fans simply enjoying the dub, to the point that it ruins their own enjoyment of the franchise, then they're taking the situation too seriously and making an issue were there isn't one. Like just watch your preferred version and enjoy it, and don't worry about anyone who doesn't.

People who act like this divide in the fandom is the end of the world and needs to be "erased for the greater good" are being over dramatic, and are ironically taking a franchise that doesn't take itself too seriously way too seriously.

Although that isn't specifically what I take issue with, especially if you're one of those you described that can have a proper, reasonable discussion about it or most media in general. I feel like even some people here who left with a bad taste in their mouth over some of these discussions fit the bill to some degree as well.

(Just that conversations that act as though the DB franchise somehow exists in a vacuum regarding some aspect or the other are really weird to read, whether it's on a site like this where it's mainly DB being discussed, or out there on the wider internet.)

I mean, it took me quite a while to properly view and understand the JP version because there was no shortage of criticisms I had for it, but then I looked at how people treat anime series in the present day, being that if they don't like it or some aspect of it, they just leave it at that and move on to something else. I also looked at more surrounding media from that time.

As to not taking the franchise seriously, that's true for sure considering its beginnings and what the author & other staff think of it. However some level of it is required when it comes to official treatment and also discussions about & surrounding it.

At the end of the day though, I still understand that the present reality is what it is and there's really nothing that can be done about it.

Toxic fandom is the way of the world, sadly. I don't think it's inherently the result of anything done to the series as much as it seems like a natural consequence of fandom.

While this is true, especially as I alluded to the same kind of thing going on in the JP version fandom for one reason or the other (like Broadcast Audio), it would at least be a lot less if a lot of these situations on the official side weren't the case.

[Dbzfan94]

I’d sacrifice all of modern DB purely for removing all the misinformation

If I might impart the wisdom that I have accumulated over 25 (twenty-five) years in fandom: The misinformation can't hurt you if you simply ignore it.

Oh I know! I’ve been around for 20 years myself. I just wanted an excuse to Yeet modern Db if I could lol.

[MasenkoHA]

Toxic fandom is the way of the world, sadly. I don't think it's inherently the result of anything done to the series as much as it seems like a natural consequence of fandom.

Truthfully, any work of fiction with a massive fanbase tends to be toxic. It's definitely not a uniquely Dragon Ball thing.

[JulieYBM]

Toxic fandom is the way of the world, sadly. I don't think it's inherently the result of anything done to the series as much as it seems like a natural consequence of fandom.

Truthfully, any work of fiction with a massive fanbase tends to be toxic. It's definitely not a uniquely Dragon Ball thing.

Sadly, when loud, annoying people get the tools and platform to be loud and annoying, we all suffer for it.

[kemuri07]

There's an extreme lack of self awareness when people are complaining about "toxic" dub lovers and then taking the extreme position of "wanting to sacrifice the entirety of the fandom because some people prefer the dubisms."

Gatekeeping is toxic. Always has been always will, and you're no better than the people you complain about if you engage in it.

[ABED]

Toxic fandom is the way of the world, sadly. I don't think it's inherently the result of anything done to the series as much as it seems like a natural consequence of fandom.

Truthfully, any work of fiction with a massive fanbase tends to be toxic. It's definitely not a uniquely Dragon Ball thing.

Sadly, when loud, annoying people get the tools and platform to be loud and annoying, we all suffer for it.

Agreed. I think fans have always been this way, but when there are no gatekeepers, and the only thing between a toxic fan and an audience is an 'enter' key, it's a recipe for disaster.

[Shaddy]

What? Gatekeepers are toxicity breeding more of itself, not the solution to toxicity. Unless you're conflating them with effective moderators or something.

[ABED]

What? Gatekeepers are toxicity breeding more of itself, not the solution to toxicity. Unless you're conflating them with effective moderators or something.

I'm not referring to people who say things like "you aren't a true fan if you don't do X", but more people who limit access legitimately. Years ago, to get your message out, you might have to write a letter to the editor, which of course required them to actually publish it. I would consider that a legitimate gatekeeper. I wouldn't call them a moderator, and I'm not sure of what else to call them to differentiate them from the toxic breed.

[Cure Dragon 255]

A moderator, you are still confusing Gatekeepers with good faith well done moderation. Gatekeepers have NEVER kept the sanity or peace of a fandom.

[Zephyr]

I'm confused. What "gatekeeping" is occurring by some fans idling fantasizing about trading some aspects of fandom for high quality releases? What are these "gatekeepers" limiting access to in the first place through their "gatekeeping"? Did this thread's existence trip some automated response system by which a thousand dub fans had their accounts here deactivated?

Further, what "access" is "denied" by someone being a dick and calling someone a "fake fan"? Why are such people treated more like door guards and less like mere hecklers?

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm confused. What "gatekeeping" is occurring by some fans idling fantasizing about trading some aspects of fandom for high quality releases? What are these "gatekeepers" limiting access to in the first place through their "gatekeeping"? Did this thread's existence trip some automated response system by which a thousand dub fans had their accounts here deactivated?

Further, what "access" is "denied" by someone being a dick and calling someone a "fake fan"? Why are such people treated more like door guards and less like mere hecklers?

I apologized already for my reaction before, if I havent I will do it again, but I objected to ABED saying "Gatekeeping is okay actually."

[JulieYBM]

I'm confused. What "gatekeeping" is occurring by some fans idling fantasizing about trading some aspects of fandom for high quality releases? What are these "gatekeepers" limiting access to in the first place through their "gatekeeping"? Did this thread's existence trip some automated response system by which a thousand dub fans had their accounts here deactivated?

Further, what "access" is "denied" by someone being a dick and calling someone a "fake fan"? Why are such people treated more like door guards and less like mere hecklers?

If 'hecklers' are going to contribute to an atmosphere where someone is called a 'fake fan', that is inevitably going to lead to people feeling pushed out of fandom spaces. It's a very common tactic for 'gatekeeping' women or queer people from fandom spaces, for example.

Shrug. I just think that the entire thread's premise is overwrought.

[Zephyr]

If 'hecklers' are going to contribute to an atmosphere where someone is called a 'fake fan', that is inevitably going to lead to people feeling pushed out of fandom spaces. It's a very common tactic for 'gatekeeping' women or queer people from fandom spaces, for example.

Agreed, but indirectly discouraging entry and actively barring entry are different things, and I don't think it's helpful to conflate them even if they may have similar results. If people are allowed past a "gate" into a space so hostile it makes them want to leave, then "gatekeeping" is a misleading label for the problem. Point of language is to communicate, we can be better, etc etc.

I objected to ABED saying "Gatekeeping is okay actually."

To the question of "is gatekeeping good or bad?", I wonder how people being banned from communities factors into the conversation. Surely people would agree there are justified grounds for barring certain individuals from certain spaces. What if assholes and bigots are largely kept at the gate? Put more succinctly: is banning people a form of "gatekeeping"?

[Koitsukai]

Fuck its popularity, let this be a niche series if it has to, I get nothing out of millions of people being a DBZ fan.
I wouldn't trade any series, though. And if had to, then everything happening after EoZ goes out the window, I'm not sticking to any non-Toriyama story.

[JulieYBM]

If 'hecklers' are going to contribute to an atmosphere where someone is called a 'fake fan', that is inevitably going to lead to people feeling pushed out of fandom spaces. It's a very common tactic for 'gatekeeping' women or queer people from fandom spaces, for example.

Agreed, but indirectly discouraging entry and actively barring entry are different things, and I don't think it's helpful to conflate them even if they may have similar results. If people are allowed past a "gate" into a space so hostile it makes them want to leave, then "gatekeeping" is a misleading label for the problem. Point of language is to communicate, we can be better, etc etc.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. Speaking as a woman in numerous fandom (and non-fandom) spaces I've seen more than my fairshare of saying the quiet part outloud. Just being you're not being called a bitch to your face it doesn't mean that the intentional gatekeeping isn't there, or that the automatic responses that aren't 'intentional gatekeeping' should be treated as any different. Victims of this behavior do not need to go the extra mile of accomodating weird, immature assholes when talking about cartoons on the internet.

I.e., I think it's very helpful to tell someone to stop being a weird little gatekeeper, even if they've deluded themselves into thinking that they're above it. Plenty of people convince themselves they're above that kind of behavior while engaging in it just as much as anyone who will proudly state that they are.

Fuck its popularity, let this be a niche series if it has to, I get nothing out of millions of people being a DBZ fan.
I wouldn't trade any series, though. And if had to, then everything happening after EoZ goes out the window, I'm not sticking to any non-Toriyama story.

Nothing has to go, because the thread's question is so hyper-specific and zoned in on pushing an idea's superiority that it spills over into just being weirdly judgemental about anyone that enjoys non-Toriyama Dragon Ball works.

It's all fake, y'all! Nothing is real or has to be real!

[Zephyr]

Victims of this behavior do not need to go the extra mile of accomodating weird, immature assholes when talking about cartoons on the internet.

No, they don't, but some do anyway. Some stick around in shitty spaces hostile to them. There are, for instance, women, queer people, and people of color who frequent places like 4chan, despite the place being a cesspool of misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, and racism.

Bringing it back to fandom proper and this thread specifically, it's not like Kanzenshuu's Sub Fan Elitist Safe Space bars dub fans from entry; if it did, I wouldn't have been allowed to join nearly 14 years ago. If you want an example of some real nerd gatekeeping, Sonic Retro's forums used to require people to pass a quiz in order to register.

If you don't think there's any worthwhile distinction to be made between something like that, and a place where anyone can join but the people are extremely rude assholes, then we'll have to agree to disagree. Because these are two different, though related, problems, and the words "gatekeeping" conjure in my mind the former more than the latter. Though I'll concede that the latter can involve an attempt to do the former (ie: saying the quiet part out loud), but I'd hesitate to outright conflate them.

[ABED]

I'm confused. What "gatekeeping" is occurring by some fans idling fantasizing about trading some aspects of fandom for high quality releases? What are these "gatekeepers" limiting access to in the first place through their "gatekeeping"? Did this thread's existence trip some automated response system by which a thousand dub fans had their accounts here deactivated?

Further, what "access" is "denied" by someone being a dick and calling someone a "fake fan"? Why are such people treated more like door guards and less like mere hecklers?

I apologized already for my reaction before, if I havent I will do it again, but I objected to ABED saying "Gatekeeping is okay actually."

That wasn't what I meant to imply bc I wasn't talking about gatekeepers in the way most now use the term. I'm referring to things like letters to the editor (apparently the only thing that comes to my mind), which I wouldn't categorize as a moderator. I would categorize it as gatekeeping as it's limiting access to the things like publications. If you wrote a letter, they would have to agree to publish it first. I've explicitly denounced jerks who try to say you don't get to say you like something bc we say so.

I'm drawing a distinction between someone who keeps the peace or plays umpire and makes sure people follow the rules (moderator) as opposed to someone who guards points of access (gatekeeper). But if you still consider what I was talking about as moderation and not gatekeeping, fine. Please don't get hung up on the word or believe that I think it's okay for people to play "you're not a true fan..."

The point I was making is getting lost. Before the internet, it took more effort let others know what you thought about things. You had to interact with flesh and blood people. If you wanted to write a letter, you had to actually write it then send it, which could cost money in postage. Then after that, someone would have to agree to publish it. I grew up before the internet became ubiquitous and a bit of advice kids got was "if you are upset at someone, write them a letter telling them exactly how you feel, then put it in a drawer and never let anyone see it." The act of writing your feelings was supposed to be cathartic, and it was much easier to put it in your drawer than physically take it to the person you were upset at. NOW? People don't do that. They write what upsets them, and hit "send". It's a recipe for disaster. I'm pointing out that people aren't so much different from how they used to be as much as the context has changed and technology has removed certain barriers allowing certain behaviors to explode.

Put more succinctly: is banning people a form of "gatekeeping"?

I would argue yes, it's a legitimate form. it's also moderating.

Anyway, I've said what I had to. I'll see myself out unless anyone has any questions.