Goku letting Vegeta go is a very touching scene

[ABED]

I don’t hate GT. I like it more than most but just think the fights are subpar

In any even fair enough. Have a good one

[AliTheZombie13]

I don’t hate GT. I like it more than most but just think the fights are subpar

In any even fair enough. Have a good one

The fights in GT are trash, and badly animated to boot, that much is true.
But thankfully for me at least, I don't watch Dragon Ball just for the fighting.

[jjgp1112]

There's also other instances, like someone said above, where Goku just doesn't care about "Oh, someone is suffering, I gotta help them, because I'm so good and pure!" Cell was clearly suffering being beaten by Gohan, he was puking out, bleeding bad, in clear disadvantage. In that instance, did Goku go, "Oh no, that poor thing, he's already incapacitated, let him go and live in shame or something!" No, his response to Gohan was just, "Kill him already before he does something!!!"

That's the thing, though - this happens AFTER the fiasco with Frieza, where after giving the man a zillion chances, Frieza kept betraying Goku's trust; to the point where he expresses regret to Trunks for going easy on him. So even though the text doesn't explicitly say this, you can infer that Goku has learned from that ordeal that some enemies are beyond mercy and will take the nuclear option when backed into a corner. He says "We don't know what he'll do!" after having seen what Frieza would do in the same situation about five times over.

Hell, even later on in the Moro arc, Goku giving him a Senzu bean was actually pretty nuanced but fans were too busy foaming at the mouth to catch it - he was clearly prepared for Moro to throw his mercy back in his face. He was essentially testing him.

[MasenkoHA]

Goku also sent the Rabbit Gang to the moon, where they would be unable to hurt anybody.

He sent them to the moon so Toriyama could make a rabbit on the moon joke, with them pounding mochi and everything.

And he didn't spare Tao's life, Tao asked him, and Goku contemplated about it, before Tao betrayed him.

This feels pedantic and splitting hairs. He didn't spare Tao's life! He contemplated it! Okay? Either way he showed the capability for mercy before he ever trained in the Heavenly realm.

I have no such issue with Goku having mercy on an enemy he can easily stop, and if he can't easily stop, then someone else has a chance of stopping them.

But you have an issue with Goku showing mercy to Freeza, an enemy he could easily stop. Even in Future Trunks timeline he killed Freeza and King Cold when they came to earth.

I enjoy Dragon Ball up to Early Namek.
After the Ginyu Force shows up, it's difficult for me to enjoy it.
Everything becomes about spectacle and raw strength, to the point where "not being strong enough" is framed by the story and the characters as a sin, even those who are not named Goku and Vegeta, and I find that incredibly problematic.


I also enjoy GT, mostly because it has a theme of "Even good actions have consequences, and sometimes, you need to fix the mess they cause" and "There is no magical artifact to make you strong, you need to work hard by yourself to get strong and make your dreams come true" which was also one of the messages of Red Ribbon, which I enjoy.

However, post-Ginyu Namek, Cell, Boo, and Super (with the exception of the movie version of BoG and Super Hero) are stories that I absolutely abhor. I didn't grow up with it, so I have less tolerance about its shortcomings.

Fair enough, I enjoy DBZ for what it is, but I do prefer the pre-Z era

I do somewhat agree with the point I think you're making that Toriyama's decision (or rather his editor's decision) to go more into "save the world" route doesn't quite jive with the character Toriyama wants to write for: A simpleton who likes punching people.


I don't think it makes Goku poorly written, but I do see where people could reasonably expect a super hero story in the Z era and be put off by the main character's actions. Which might be why you enjoy GT since it's Toei doing more of the messiah Goku they wanted.

Not sure if you've seen the pre-BOG Z movies but you may enjoy those more than the Z series, because they also have a more traditional super hero Goku

[Majin Buu]

So even though the text doesn't explicitly say this, you can infer that Goku has learned from that ordeal that some enemies are beyond mercy and will take the nuclear option when backed into a corner.

What I bolded is something about Dragon Ball that I think needs to be stated: To get the most out of it, you kinda have to infer some things about the story and characters based on what's shown/said in the text, since Toriyama doesn't devote much screen time to character growth and leaves various aspects of his world unexplained, only ever providing what the audience needs to know to understand what's going on.

[AliTheZombie13]

I don't think it makes Goku poorly written, but I do see where people could reasonably expect a super hero story in the Z era and be put off by the main character's actions. Which might be why you enjoy GT since it's Toei doing more of the messiah Goku they wanted.

Not sure if you've seen the pre-BOG Z movies but you may enjoy those more than the Z series, because they also have a more traditional super hero Goku

I hate the Z movies, they're all spectacle and no substance.

And ironically enough, I feel like GT Goku is the perfect blend between "asshole who only wants to fight strong guys" and "accidental hero."
He never thinks anything through in GT, only caring about fighting strong people, even once telling to his granddaughter's face when she's feeling neglected that he simply doesn't care about her feelings.

The difference between GT Goku and Z/Super Goku is, there has never, EVER, been a single instance where GT Goku went. "Hm... I could end the threat right now... But I won't... Because I'm a Saiyan, and I'm proud to be a Saiyan, and as a good Saiyan does, I will do something incredibly irresponsible, risking the entire universe in the process, because Saiyan! "

Some people find that charming, I just find it infuriating, but to each their own.

[Lukmendes]

However, to give some leeway, there's been precedent for that sort of thing. In his fight with Tenshinhan he reveals he's been holding back, meaning he could have easily mopped the floor with Krillin in their match, but held back to allow for a good fight with someone he respected. So holding back in his fight with Majin Vegeta was incredibly stupid of Goku but also consistent with his ethics.(and yes obviously there's a world of difference in holding back in a no stakes tournament match with your buddy and holding back against a murderous psychopath while your energy is being used to awaken a much bigger threat)

The thing is that, Goku is surprisingly pragmatic during Buu saga, and before fighting Vegeta in chapter 458, he says he'll end the fight quickly and goes SS2, and when Vegeta also goes SS2, Goku looks surprised and annoyed, so he clearly didn't want to drag out the fight against Vegeta since he didn't want Buu to be awake.

Even the SS3 retcon doesn't use a "Oh I was holding back against Vegeta to enjoy a good fight", when Vegeta calls him out on not using SS3 in 503, Goku's excuse is just "I was saving it for later just in case", which's a horrible excuse when having Majin Vegeta at SS2 level is already one of the worst case scenarios...

That's the thing, though - this happens AFTER the fiasco with Frieza, where after giving the man a zillion chances, Frieza kept betraying Goku's trust; to the point where he expresses regret to Trunks for going easy on him. So even though the text doesn't explicitly say this, you can infer that Goku has learned from that ordeal that some enemies are beyond mercy and will take the nuclear option when backed into a corner. He says "We don't know what he'll do!" after having seen what Frieza would do in the same situation about five times over.

And then this same Goku who knows Cell is a threat to be dealt with decides to give Cell a senzu.

In Buu saga he's also decently pragmatic since he didn't want Buu to awake, and against super Buu he's the most pragmatic he's ever been... Then against kid Buu he's an overconfident dumb fuck who thinks he can handle Buu who has shown to have basically unlimited stamina, with his shitty stamina drain transformation.

So yeah, you can infer that Goku has learned, but a lot of times it looks like he really didn't and may even have become dumber.

A problem with Toriyama's writing is that, he just changes characters' personalities in some ways to fit in a specific plot, which fucks over Goku, but he's far from being the only one, Vegeta in Cell saga suddenly becomes a dumbass who fights with honor when in Namek he actually fought dirty, Gohan when fighting Cell suddenly turns into a pacifist when he was never one before, or after that fight (Since Gohan says he wants to fight Dabura alone).

This is unfortunately a problem that got worse, since Toriyama essentially reset Goku's character starting with BoG, so he's re-learning the same things, making amateur mistakes in fights and not knowing what fucking meditating is... And Gohan is in this never ending "Oh I stopped training because I was doing other stuff but now I realized I have to train but oh I stopped training because..." cycle...

Hell, even later on in the Moro arc, Goku giving him a Senzu bean was actually pretty nuanced but fans were too busy foaming at the mouth to catch it - he was clearly prepared for Moro to throw his mercy back in his face. He was essentially testing him.

Problem is showing mercy towards Moro at all when he was shown to be just as dangerous as, basically any other villain, somehow Goku doesn't think "Wait, Moro is cornered like Vegeta/Freeza/Cell and could try blowing up the Earth, maybe I shouldn't give him a senzu".

Fair enough, I enjoy DBZ for what it is, but I do prefer the pre-Z era

I do somewhat agree with the point I think you're making that Toriyama's decision (or rather his editor's decision) to go more into "save the world" route doesn't quite jive with the character Toriyama wants to write for: A simpleton who likes punching people.

They way Toriyama himself talks about Goku is weird, since he talks like Goku is this jackass who'll do what he wants to get a good fight, but Buu saga, where Toriyama has the most control since he had a more lax editor, had Goku being decently pragmatic and even giving up on personal fun for whatever objective he had in mind until kid Buu.

Like there are points where Goku is just an idiot because of his fight boner, with the most baffling case being Goku deciding to spare Vegeta because the fight fulfilled his fight junkie needs, but a bunch of times he doesn't act like that at all and may be more heroic than Toriyama gives him credit.

[jjgp1112]

That's the thing, though - this happens AFTER the fiasco with Frieza, where after giving the man a zillion chances, Frieza kept betraying Goku's trust; to the point where he expresses regret to Trunks for going easy on him. So even though the text doesn't explicitly say this, you can infer that Goku has learned from that ordeal that some enemies are beyond mercy and will take the nuclear option when backed into a corner. He says "We don't know what he'll do!" after having seen what Frieza would do in the same situation about five times over.

And then this same Goku who knows Cell is a threat to be dealt with decides to give Cell a senzu.

Eh, apples to oranges. In the case of Senzu-gate, that was Goku's miscalculation that Gohan would crave an all-out fight like he did, and of course the lynchpin of Goku's whole plan was Gohan getting angry enough to have the strength to kill Cell...which would happen much faster with Cell fresh and healthy. It goes back to what Majin Buu said earlier in the thread - Goku's decisions are informed by his confidence in the situation, and in this case he healed Cell because he felt Gohan could handle it if he got angry enough. And he was right = again, the only thing he got wrong is that Gohan would care about a fair fight.

On the other hand, once Cell is all but defeated? Goku's seen how that goes before, so of course he wants Gohan to finish the job before Cell does anything crazy out of desperation.

Moro's a unique case, because the whole idea of redeeming a villain is something that actually comes up, and Goku explains his philosophy. So I interpreted him giving Moro the senzu bean as "Oh he's doing the begging routine? Lemme humor him" now that that subject was in the back of his mind. After Moro attacks him, Goku just tanks it, calls him a coward, and chastises him on his entire path - to me, that feels like he was trying to make a point to somebody he already had beat.

[ABED]

A problem with Toriyama's writing is that, he just changes characters' personalities in some ways to fit in a specific plot, which fucks over Goku, but he's far from being the only one, Vegeta in Cell saga suddenly becomes a dumbass who fights with honor when in Namek he actually fought dirty, Gohan when fighting Cell suddenly turns into a pacifist when he was never one before, or after that fight (Since Gohan says he wants to fight Dabura alone).

This isn't sacrificing character for plot. It's characters acting differently in different contexts. On Namek, Vegeta knew he was outgunned and couldn't win a head on fight. In the Cell arc, he was in control and wanted an actual challenge.

I'll give you Gohan in the Cell arc. It's been a big point of contention of mine and others. However, in the Buu arc, he's overcompensating. He's trying to be like his father.

And Gohan is in this never ending "Oh I stopped training because I was doing other stuff but now I realized I have to train but oh I stopped training because..." cycle...

To a certain extent that's fair, Super does a good job with developing Gohan by having him get both. He can be both scholar and fighter. He doesn't have to be like his dad, nor does he have to give up being a scholar. He can combine both.

[MasenkoHA]

They way Toriyama himself talks about Goku is weird, since he talks like Goku is this jackass who'll do what he wants to get a good fight, but Buu saga, where Toriyama has the most control since he had a more lax editor, had Goku being decently pragmatic and even giving up on personal fun for whatever objective he had in mind until kid Buu.

A lot of the Boo arc is definitely informed by Gohan being the intended hero. In a lot of ways it basically mirrors the Daimao arc but with Gohan in Goku's place.

Demonic evil released by weaker villain? Check?

Villain in his weakest form knocks out the hero and nearly kills him and everyone assumes he's dead? Check

Veteran warrior (Kame Sennin in the Daimao arc, Goku in Boo) can't defeat villain but promises more will come his way and then forfeits his life (albeit in Goku's case it was just using the last of his borrowed time) ? Check

Villain betrays the one who freed him? Check

Villain goes through transformation to make himself even stronger? Check.

Hero gets power up thanks to a literal deus ex machina? Check

Another hero comes in to fight villain with his new technique (Tenshinhan in Daimao, Gotenks in Boo) but can't defeat villain? Check

The hero returns to the battlefield more confident and more powerful? Check



It gets subverted when Toriyama decides, actually no, Gohan isn't fit to lead a martial arts comic but since the pieces were put into place it feels messy. That said, I don't think Goku being the zen master ready to let the new generation of warriors take over contradicts his lust for battle.

Like there are points where Goku is just an idiot because of his fight boner, with the most baffling case being Goku deciding to spare Vegeta because the fight fulfilled his fight junkie needs, but a bunch of times he doesn't act like that at all and may be more heroic than Toriyama gives him credit.

Vegeta was the first villianous opponent he fought and couldn't beat (yes he lost to Tao and Daimao but immediately came back and handily defeated them). It's not random or out of character for him to want a rematch.

[Majin Buu]

Just like Dragon Ball itself a lot of the time: The thread started in one place and wound up in a very different place as it went on. Anyway, wanted to respond to this:

A lot of the Boo arc is definitely informed by Gohan being the intended hero. In a lot of ways it basically mirrors the Daimao arc but with Gohan in Goku's place.

Villain in his weakest form knocks out the hero and nearly kills him and everyone assumes he's dead? Check

Villain goes through transformation to make himself even stronger? Check.

Hero gets power up thanks to a literal deus ex machina? Check

The hero returns to the battlefield more confident and more powerful? Check

Honestly, these parts when you put them together like this do form something of a complete character arc for Gohan; and for as barebones as it is, it's more of a character arc than Goku had in the Daimao arc. The issue (for many) is that it's not followed by him succeeding against Buu but instead failing against him (and in hindsight, the fact that he'll have to get his groove back again after this- twice; but that's more a consequence of people deciding we needed more Dragon Ball after this), but IMO, that doesn't erase the fact that as a character he does start the arc in one place and ends it in a different place- Even if that arc could have been better executed.

It gets subverted when Toriyama decides, actually no, Gohan isn't fit to lead a martial arts comic but since the pieces were put into place it feels messy.

Yeah, it feels like Toriyama doing what he could with what he had at that point in the story for where he decided he wanted it to go. To his credit though, what he did end up putting together does function as something of an arc for him.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I don't think it makes Goku poorly written, but I do see where people could reasonably expect a super hero story in the Z era and be put off by the main character's actions. Which might be why you enjoy GT since it's Toei doing more of the messiah Goku they wanted.

Not sure if you've seen the pre-BOG Z movies but you may enjoy those more than the Z series, because they also have a more traditional super hero Goku

I hate the Z movies, they're all spectacle and no substance.

And ironically enough, I feel like GT Goku is the perfect blend between "asshole who only wants to fight strong guys" and "accidental hero."
He never thinks anything through in GT, only caring about fighting strong people, even once telling to his granddaughter's face when she's feeling neglected that he simply doesn't care about her feelings.

The difference between GT Goku and Z/Super Goku is, there has never, EVER, been a single instance where GT Goku went. "Hm... I could end the threat right now... But I won't... Because I'm a Saiyan, and I'm proud to be a Saiyan, and as a good Saiyan does, I will do something incredibly irresponsible, risking the entire universe in the process, because Saiyan! "

Some people find that charming, I just find it infuriating, but to each their own.

You've been here for so little time and you are still one of our best posters. Keep it up!

[Lukmendes]

Eh, apples to oranges. In the case of Senzu-gate, that was Goku's miscalculation that Gohan would crave an all-out fight like he did, and of course the lynchpin of Goku's whole plan was Gohan getting angry enough to have the strength to kill Cell...which would happen much faster with Cell fresh and healthy. It goes back to what Majin Buu said earlier in the thread - Goku's decisions are informed by his confidence in the situation, and in this case he healed Cell because he felt Gohan could handle it if he got angry enough. And he was right = again, the only thing he got wrong is that Gohan would care about a fair fight.

On the other hand, once Cell is all but defeated? Goku's seen how that goes before, so of course he wants Gohan to finish the job before Cell does anything crazy out of desperation.

Fair enough, worst I can say is that Goku was being a dumbass in making a decision for Gohan, since he could just say it himself, but you can say it was part of the point since Goku was being presumptous and knows what Gohan wants, not unlike a bunch of real life parents.

Moro's a unique case, because the whole idea of redeeming a villain is something that actually comes up, and Goku explains his philosophy. So I interpreted him giving Moro the senzu bean as "Oh he's doing the begging routine? Lemme humor him" now that that subject was in the back of his mind. After Moro attacks him, Goku just tanks it, calls him a coward, and chastises him on his entire path - to me, that feels like he was trying to make a point to somebody he already had beat.

it's still a terrible idea to give such a chance to a villain who's backed in a corner and may try something desperate, even if Goku is slightly more aware of things.

Like, I see your point and if that's the case then it's at least an unique way to have Goku give him a senzu, but a terrible idea all the same lol.

This isn't sacrificing character for plot. It's characters acting differently in different contexts. On Namek, Vegeta knew he was outgunned and couldn't win a head on fight. In the Cell arc, he was in control and wanted an actual challenge.

Vegeta casually outclassed Zarbon during their rematch and still decided to fight dirty.

I'll give you Gohan in the Cell arc. It's been a big point of contention of mine and others. However, in the Buu arc, he's overcompensating. He's trying to be like his father.

That seemed like an earnest desire and not just him overcompensating anything.

To a certain extent that's fair, Super does a good job with developing Gohan by having him get both. He can be both scholar and fighter. He doesn't have to be like his dad, nor does he have to give up being a scholar. He can combine both.

Which's a fine idea, problem is that Toriyama doesn't write Gohan as someone doing any sort of balance, he just overworks to the point he becomes useless again and again, and again...

It's just a tired cliché because Toriyama is either too incompetent or too lazy to do something else with Gohan, not unlike "Buu just happens to be sleeping when a new villain shows up".

A lot of the Boo arc is definitely informed by Gohan being the intended hero. In a lot of ways it basically mirrors the Daimao arc but with Gohan in Goku's place.

Demonic evil released by weaker villain? Check?

Villain in his weakest form knocks out the hero and nearly kills him and everyone assumes he's dead? Check

Veteran warrior (Kame Sennin in the Daimao arc, Goku in Boo) can't defeat villain but promises more will come his way and then forfeits his life (albeit in Goku's case it was just using the last of his borrowed time) ? Check

Villain betrays the one who freed him? Check

Villain goes through transformation to make himself even stronger? Check.

Hero gets power up thanks to a literal deus ex machina? Check

Another hero comes in to fight villain with his new technique (Tenshinhan in Daimao, Gotenks in Boo) but can't defeat villain? Check

The hero returns to the battlefield more confident and more powerful? Check

While DB repeats a lot of clichés and plot points, I never even noticed King Piccolo and Buu sagas shared so many of these... I only ever related the poison water with Old Kaioshin's unlocked potential and that was it.

It gets subverted when Toriyama decides, actually no, Gohan isn't fit to lead a martial arts comic but since the pieces were put into place it feels messy. That said, I don't think Goku being the zen master ready to let the new generation of warriors take over contradicts his lust for battle.

I think the most charitable way to interpret Goku in Buu saga is that he would rather prevent a great evil from showing up, but since the great evil already showed up he'll try to have fun when possible, something that kinda happened when fighting Vegeta, since he clearly didn't wanna go for it at first, but later is smirking during the fight.

Problem is, the way he acts when dealing with Buu himself is more pragmatic overall, even when dealing with Fat Buu he decided to delay the fight and ended it as soon as Trunks left, he never really wanted to fight super Buu ever too, it's only against kid Buu he decided to act like a cocky, overconfident idiot and let go of any pragmatism he had at earlier points he had during the story, even though kid Buu just killed his sons.

But then again, Buu saga struggles with its tone and character actions and reactions, Gotenks has by far the worst case of this, since Buu killed Chi Chi earlier, and while Goten felt initial rage, afterwards he was goofing around and Gotenks was even worse, and even when Buu killed Bulma too, he was still goofing around while only being slightly more serious...

Vegeta was the first villianous opponent he fought and couldn't beat (yes he lost to Tao and Daimao but immediately came back and handily defeated them). It's not random or out of character for him to want a rematch.

I see it as out of character and insane when Goku years before this was way smarter about dealing with villains just as evil as Vegeta, to the point he killed mooks without a care, and never showed any regret over thinking he killed Tao Pai Pai, or King Piccolo.

And the problem is that, the lines with Goku get arbitrary as fuck. He doesn't want to kill Vegeta even though Vegeta killed his friends, tried to kill his son and tried to blow up Earth during a tantrun. But against Freeza, he either wanted to kill him or let him live with shame but never wanted to see him again, even though Freeza killed his friends, tried to kill his son and tried to blow up Namek during a tantrun... I know that seeing Freeza kill Krillin is more impactful, but Goku was also trigger pissed when everyone else was dead when he arrived to fight Nappa and Vegeta.

So yeah, I see Goku's fight boner tendencies as a flanderization of his desire to fight strong people from vanilla DB, something that started as far back as the 23rd tournament, where he wanted Piccolo alive to be a rival, but even in that Goku at least puts more emphasis on not wanting Kami to die, saiyan saga is just Goku being a selfish jackass, which is how Toriyama sees him I guess, but I don't think it works that well when he wasn't this bad before, or after it in Z...

[MasenkoHA]

Nobody Goku fought in original Dragon Ball was as strong as Vegeta. In his own words all that training he did in the afterlife and he still couldn't compare. Why would Goku keep Tao or Daimao or Piccolo Daimao's children alive when he became much stronger than that?

Piccolo Jr already set a precedent for Goku keeping villains alive for a rematch (albeit, the Kami factor also mattered). With Junior and Vegeta he had villains matching him at the top of his game (and in Vegeta's case still much stronger) before that Goku either greatly outclassed his neferious opponents or their upperhand was only a minor setback and Goku would best them in a rematch.


You mention Freeza, but by the time Goku became Super Saiyan his strength and abilities dwarfed Freeza's. He had zero reason to want to fight Freeza again.

[Lukmendes]

Nobody Goku fought in original Dragon Ball was as strong as Vegeta. In his own words all that training he did in the afterlife and he still couldn't compare. Why would Goku keep Tao or Daimao or Piccolo Daimao's children alive when he became much stronger than that?

Piccolo Jr already set a precedent for Goku keeping villains alive for a rematch (albeit, the Kami factor also mattered). With Junior and Vegeta he had villains matching him at the top of his game (and in Vegeta's case still much stronger) before that Goku either greatly outclassed his neferious opponents or their upperhand was only a minor setback and Goku would best them in a rematch.

Funny how the way you word it makes Goku sound particularly villainous, either stronger than him or worthless lol.

Either way even if neither Tao Pai Pai or King Piccolo were stronger than him, they still were pretty tough, with King Piccolo in particular being so powerful Goku only really won because Tien helped, and at no point Goku thinks "what a waste" when either of them "died", which Z Goku definitely would.

You mention Freeza, but by the time Goku became Super Saiyan his strength and abilities dwarfed Freeza's. He had zero reason to want to fight Freeza again.

Fair enough, but Goku also makes it clear he fucking hates Freeza and later says he should've just killed him on Namek, such things never happened with Vegeta despite Vegeta being only slightly less bad, because the plot required Goku to forget his usual emotions whenever a villain kills his friends just so he can decide to spare Vegeta.

So yeah, we probably won't agree with this, you think it makes sense with Goku's personality, I think it's bad writing of his personality because I see it as flanderization, so if there's nothing else to else to add, better agree to disagree.

[jjgp1112]

Nobody Goku fought in original Dragon Ball was as strong as Vegeta. In his own words all that training he did in the afterlife and he still couldn't compare. Why would Goku keep Tao or Daimao or Piccolo Daimao's children alive when he became much stronger than that?

Piccolo Jr already set a precedent for Goku keeping villains alive for a rematch (albeit, the Kami factor also mattered). With Junior and Vegeta he had villains matching him at the top of his game (and in Vegeta's case still much stronger) before that Goku either greatly outclassed his neferious opponents or their upperhand was only a minor setback and Goku would best them in a rematch.

Funny how the way you word it makes Goku sound particularly villainous, either stronger than him or worthless lol.

Either way even if neither Tao Pai Pai or King Piccolo were stronger than him, they still were pretty tough, with King Piccolo in particular being so powerful Goku only really won because Tien helped, and at no point Goku thinks "what a waste" when either of them "died", which Z Goku definitely would.

You mention Freeza, but by the time Goku became Super Saiyan his strength and abilities dwarfed Freeza's. He had zero reason to want to fight Freeza again.

Fair enough, but Goku also makes it clear he fucking hates Freeza and later says he should've just killed him on Namek, such things never happened with Vegeta despite Vegeta being only slightly less bad, because the plot required Goku to forget his usual emotions whenever a villain kills his friends just so he can decide to spare Vegeta.

So yeah, we probably won't agree with this, you think it makes sense with Goku's personality, I think it's bad writing of his personality because I see it as flanderization, so if there's nothing else to else to add, better agree to disagree.

Goku was wiping the floor with Piccolo Daimao to the point where he had to rely on cheap tactics - you say Goku only won because of Tien but um dawg...it was literally the opposite. Piccolo held Tien hostage and forced Goku to stand still while he injured his limbs. Tien being there was the only reason things got bad enough that Goku had to gamble everything on his last attack

On the other hand, Piccolo Jr. was a worthy opponent and of course the Kami factor. And Goku pretty thoroughly explains his reasons for sparing Vegeta - after thinking he hit his peak, Vegeta outclassed him to the point where he had to get another crack at him in a straight up fight because of drive for self-improvement. It wasn't just that Vegeta was a good fight - he was so much stronger that Goku realized he still had a long way to go. And then this escalation continues with Frieza until the fight is no longer worth the challenge. Yes, he wanted to kill Frieza out of rage, but that rage turned to pity as the fight went on. I don't find that contradictory or a convenient change.

[AliTheZombie13]

Putting my two cents here again:
Vegeta's "sense of honor and pride, deciding to fight enemies he knows he can win" makes no sense.
Vegeta as a character was extremely pragmatic during the Saiyan and Namek arcs, be it against enemies he knew he could beat or not.

Biggest example I can find is him telling Nappa to kill everybody, because Goku's Battle Power of over 5.000 and everybody ganging up on them might prove to be an issue.

Here, we have the exact same situation of the Cell Saga: Vegeta is told somebody is coming who will potentially kill them. Unlike the Cyborgs, however, who are stated to be infinitely stronger than Freeza, who Vegeta was still scared of in the beginning of the arc, even if everybody combined their powers, Vegeta would still win if he used the Oozaru transformation, so he had no real reason to fear. And yet, he chooses the pragmatic approach, kill everybody before it becomes a problem, even if it's a problem he can handle.

Vegeta in the Saiyan and Namek arcs was smart, and I can't help but feel his character during Cell and Boo took a high dose of stupid pills for the sake of the plot.

[ABED]

Putting my two cents here again:
Vegeta's "sense of honor and pride, deciding to fight enemies he knows he can win" makes no sense.
Vegeta as a character was extremely pragmatic during the Saiyan and Namek arcs, be it against enemies he knew he could beat or not.

Biggest example I can find is him telling Nappa to kill everybody, because Goku's Battle Power of over 5.000 and everybody ganging up on them might prove to be an issue.

Here, we have the exact same situation of the Cell Saga: Vegeta is told somebody is coming who will potentially kill them. Unlike the Cyborgs, however, who are stated to be infinitely stronger than Freeza, who Vegeta was still scared of in the beginning of the arc, even if everybody combined their powers, Vegeta would still win if he used the Oozaru transformation, so he had no real reason to fear. And yet, he chooses the pragmatic approach, kill everybody before it becomes a problem, even if it's a problem he can handle.

Vegeta in the Saiyan and Namek arcs was smart, and I can't help but feel his character during Cell and Boo took a high dose of stupid pills for the sake of the plot.

In the first arc, he sees Goku being able to raise his power in such a short time is disconcerting. He SEES the battle power in his scouter.

All he has in the Cell arc is some vague warnings.

On Namek, he KNEW he was overpowered.

People aren't always logical. We're EMOTIONAL beings. Why should we expect any different from fictional characters. Again, you keep claiming characters are stupid for the sake of the plot.

[AliTheZombie13]

People aren't always logical. We're EMOTIONAL beings. Why should we expect any different from fictional characters. Again, you keep claiming characters are stupid for the sake of the plot.

Vague warnings from a guy who just shown him to be stronger than Freeza, and telling him that there are beings even stronger than himself that would kill him in a few years.

Also, Dragon Ball is a story written by a human being, who by that point was clearly getting tired and was not particularly concerned with the long term.

Since they had become the strongest in even the universe, they next had to surpass time. So with that I did time-travel stuff, but it was really rough. Time paradox, is it? I quickly got bogged down. I basically only thought of what I was doing for that week. Even I didn’t know what was going to happen the next week. I’d draw the story like this, but I’d always discuss it with my editor to see what I should do for next week. (laughs)

Things like Trunks saying #19 and #20 are the ones who ravaged the future, only for Trunks to show up again few chapters later declaring that those are not the Cyborgs who ravaged his future, are a tell-tale sign that the quality of the story is suffering.

This, of course, is the result of Toriyama having planned Vegeta to be a full-on villain, before deciding he was going to be part of the main cast and changing his personality so he'd be "honorable evil" instead to make his transition easier.

I'm a realist by nature, and Vegeta's whole personality change during the Cell arc baffles me.
"But human beings are inconsistent!" is not a good argument against inconsistent writing.

[ABED]

Vague warnings from a guy who just shown him to be stronger than Freeza, and telling him that there are beings even stronger than himself that would kill him in a few years.

Yes. Still vague. They don't know how strong the cyborgs are or even if any of this is true.

Also, Dragon Ball is a story written by a human being, who by that point was clearly getting tired and was not particularly concerned with the long term.

As if the thing that matters the most to the audience or good writing is a well planned out plot. Planning out a story is just one method and not inherently the best for good storytelling. It doesn't matter if he had planned it all out, any time travel story will be inherently inconsistent and illogical. It doesn't matter bc it's window dressing.

I'm a realist by nature, and Vegeta's whole personality change during the Cell arc baffles me.
"But human beings are inconsistent!" is not a good argument against inconsistent writing.

One of your counter arguments to characterization is a retcon of a few numbers?

Vegeta's personality didn't change. Remember, Vegeta was warned by Zarbon that Freeza had more than one form, and still Vegeta egged him on. There is precedent.