Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Could DBS 34 give us a clue to how strong Goku and Vegeta are in their lower forms?

It’s said that prior to fighting Kefla, Gohan had merely regained his fighting instincts. Gohan seems comparable to Frost against U9: Neither has an easy time, Frost tears through the team but is completely wasted afterwards. Gohan wanted to use FP to beat everyone, but Piccolo warned him against it to save stamina. Frost has the better feats, but I think it’s fair to place them together for simplicity’s sake since they’re at least close.

Frost fits between Base and SSJ Goku, and I think we all agree he’s closer to the latter. If Frost is comparable to Ultimate Gohan, that would mean SSJ Goku is roughly Bootenks level before training with Merus. I like this placement: Strong, but not absurdly strong.

[Yuji]

Beast had a lot more trouble handling Max than in the movie. Gohan struggled during the beam clash and needed outside help and he looks exhausted after the fight is over. Considering Max and Piccolo are somewhat relative as well, I'd say it's safe to say Black Freeza is still top dog. I can't imagine Freeza struggling.

[Thani]

Beast had a lot more trouble handling Max than in the movie. Gohan struggled during the beam clash and needed outside help and he looks exhausted after the fight is over. Considering Max and Piccolo are somewhat relative as well, I'd say it's safe to say Black Freeza is still top dog. I can't imagine Freeza struggling.

Maybe he would, it's too early to know. Vegeta did say that he and Goku were at least "physically equal to" Freeza (and Moro, Gas, Jiren and Broly, but regardless), the difference being in mindset (as dumb as it seems for now).

But honestly, I'm just more or less feeling vindicated by both medias agreeing that they're all more or less relative to one another.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Beast had a lot more trouble handling Max than in the movie. Gohan struggled during the beam clash and needed outside help and he looks exhausted after the fight is over. Considering Max and Piccolo are somewhat relative as well, I'd say it's safe to say Black Freeza is still top dog. I can't imagine Freeza struggling.

Maybe he would, it's too early to know. Vegeta did say that he and Goku were at least "physically equal to" Freeza (and Moro, Gas, Jiren and Broly, but regardless), the difference being in mindset (as dumb as it seems for now).

But honestly, I'm just more or less feeling vindicated by both medias agreeing that they're all more or less relative to one another.

I always figured that, in terms of sheer raw power, there wasn't much difference at these latest levels since they're all around as strong or somewhat stronger than a God of Destruction.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Black Frieza would obviously be stronger than Beast Gohan simply because he hasn't had his arc yet. From a narrative point of view it would make no sense for Beast Gohan to be superior to him.

What I want to know is how Cell Max is meant to fit in with everyone. He's apparently strong enough that Gohan doesn't think Goku could beat him despite him having seen him fight in Ultra Instinct against Moro.

That same transformed Moro who Goku kicked around with ease was meant to be Goku's toughest opponent which should place him above Broly.

Yet based on what Toriyama said about how Cell Max wouldn't even be defeated by Broly if he'd been completed would suggest that the Cell Max we saw would be defeated by him.

So how does that all piece together?

Cell Max should probably be in the realm of Planet Moro. He's gotta be above Ultra Instinct Moro. So Broly is stronger than that? Goku's comment about Moro wasn't including Broly? He was literally talking about the toughness of his body?

But then the manga also had Whis say that nobody was stronger than Goku or Vegeta Post Moro arc when Vegeta was only Ultra Instinct Sign level so Broly should effectively be weaker than the Transformed Moro.

Unless current Broly is dramatically stronger now than in the movie then I don't know how you piece that together.

[TobyS]

Black Frieza would obviously be stronger than Beast Gohan simply because he hasn't had his arc yet. From a narrative point of view it would make no sense for Beast Gohan to be superior to him.

What I want to know is how Cell Max is meant to fit in with everyone. He's apparently strong enough that Gohan doesn't think Goku could beat him despite him having seen him fight in Ultra Instinct against Moro.

That same transformed Moro who Goku kicked around with ease was meant to be Goku's toughest opponent which should place him above Broly.

Yet based on what Toriyama said about how Cell Max wouldn't even be defeated by Broly if he'd been completed would suggest that the Cell Max we saw would be defeated by him.

So how does that all piece together?

Cell Max should probably be in the realm of Planet Moro. He's gotta be above Ultra Instinct Moro. So Broly is stronger than that? Goku's comment about Moro wasn't including Broly? He was literally talking about the toughness of his body?

But then the manga also had Whis say that nobody was stronger than Goku or Vegeta Post Moro arc when Vegeta was only Ultra Instinct Sign level so Broly should effectively be weaker than the Transformed Moro.

Unless current Broly is dramatically stronger now than in the movie then I don't know how you piece that together.

I think Black Freeza on top is a given.

Broly had that whole power growing as he fights right.

Could Goku be talking about the Broly he fought, not the Broly Gogeta fought later.

So it could go Broly - Moro - Broly that Goku fought.

Also we didn't really see the manga version of the Broly fight.

Also Broly could have got stronger than Goku and Vegeta again since Granolah (Goku was scared of Brolys full power coming out despite have True UI in his back pocket now)

So you could have Completed Cell Max > Broly > Beast Gohan >< Incomplete Cell Max > Orange Piccolo/Goku/Vegeta

[Miracles]

Gohan has Toriyama himself crowning him as the strength along with the history of Dragon ball backing him when the main focus.

[Hugo Boss]

Chapter #100 basically repeats the same battle power bits from the movie: 1) Gamma #2’s massive burst weakened Cell Max; 2) They never could’ve beaten Cell Max without the Gamma’s help; 3) Gohan wonders if Goku and Vegeta could’ve taken down Cell Max.

An interesting note is that Gohan Beast and Cell Max’s ultimate moves were evenly matched in the manga version, while in the movie Gohan didn’t need Goten and Trunks’ help to gain the upper hand. Toyotaro likely referenced Vegeta’s intervention in the fight against the original Cell, where Gohan also needed extra help to focus everything he had in the final push.

Also we didn't really see the manga version of the Broly fight.

Chapter #93 shows a quick breakdown of the movie plot. It plays out very similar with minor differences (no armored Super Saiyan form).

Piecing all these implications together, I see Broly, Cell Max and Gohan Beast as relative to each other in terms of battle power, so probably Goku and Vegeta would have to fuse to beat Cell Max as well.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Either way, Whis said he didn't know anyone that was stronger than Goku or Vegeta and he knew Broly.

So Broly should have been even weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta.

In fact if you go purely by the manga and forget any outside comments the order should go...

Cell Max ~ Planet Moro
Ultra Instinct Goku (Moro arc)
Ultra Instinct Moro
Transformed Moro
Moro
Ultra Instinct Sign Goku ~ SSBE Vegeta
Broly

Then there's the likes of Granolah, Gas and Black Frieza. The former two could be above Cell Max but all three are well above Broly.

Again forgetting the Toriyama comment because it doesn't really tie in well with the manga then Broly isn't anything special now.

[Thani]

It's gonna be really satisfying if, when the next arc drops, it confirms that, yes, everyone that's in the range of a God of Destruction is relative to one another in power.

I dunno why Toyo had Whis give that line with no further analysis, but Toriyama seems to disregard it in his movies since even Jiren is still regarded as a measuring stick for Goku and Vegeta. Which the manga adaptation of the arc also supports.

[Hugo Boss]

I dunno why Toyo had Whis give that line with no further analysis, but Toriyama seems to disregard it in his movies since even Jiren is still regarded as a measuring stick for Goku and Vegeta. Which the manga adaptation of the arc also supports.

Exactly! Piecing together story arcs that weren’t written in linear form is a fruitless effort, even when they reference each other. There are several conflicting strength implications, like this one.

I personally make a distinction between Super’s adaptations and exclusive content to keep consistency in narrative progression.

• Adaptation: Beerus > Golden Freeza > Broly > Super Hero
• Exclusive content: Champa > Zamasu > Jiren > Moro > Granolah

[Mr Baggins]

Let's also not forget that Toyotaro wouldn't have Whis mention Broly in any case since he wasn't formally introduced (or even name dropped yet) in the manga's serialization at the time. Anyone who just reads the comic and isn't intimately familiar with every Super-related thing would end up confused.

Now that he is introduced, everyone involved in the manga (Uchida, Toyotaro, Toriyama, whoever writes the V Jump guides) hypes up Broly's strength. I called it a long time ago.

I don't think making distinctions between entire arcs is necessary, though. Even with the occasional discrepancy, they mostly work out just fine. The manga still references all these enemies in the Super Hero arc, so you can't really ignore them.

[Yuji]

I still think UI Goku in the Moro arc is his strongest version right now. The Granolah arc repeatedly implies Goku can't access the full power (outside of the Avatar state at the very end) of Ultra Instinct because of his internal conflict. "True" UI is just Sign.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think making distinctions between entire arcs is necessary, though. They mostly work out just fine. The manga still references all these enemies in the Super Hero arc, so you can't really ignore them.

I do it only because scrutinizing every single instance in which a strength comparison doesn’t line up well with some specific data is quite complex. It would require some time to explain thoroughly.

[Koitsukai]

I could've sworn Goku or Vegeta mentioned their Broly encounter to Merus.

In any case, I don't see how the audience would get confused with this when Broly was the main star of the highest grossing DB movie ever. You would have to live under a rock to be baffled about Broly if you follow the DBS manga, and we've seen they don't cater to any particular section of the audience.
That would make sense the other way around: not mentioning a manga-only character in a movie, like what happened with Gas or Granola in SH.

Could DBS 34 give us a clue to how strong Goku and Vegeta are in their lower forms?

It’s said that prior to fighting Kefla, Gohan had merely regained his fighting instincts. Gohan seems comparable to Frost against U9: Neither has an easy time, Frost tears through the team but is completely wasted afterwards. Gohan wanted to use FP to beat everyone, but Piccolo warned him against it to save stamina. Frost has the better feats, but I think it’s fair to place them together for simplicity’s sake since they’re at least close.

Frost fits between Base and SSJ Goku, and I think we all agree he’s closer to the latter. If Frost is comparable to Ultimate Gohan, that would mean SSJ Goku is roughly Bootenks level before training with Merus. I like this placement: Strong, but not absurdly strong.

That should work, yes. Assuming Goku is going to end up being as strong as Kid Buu in his base, being SS2 level-ish in base before getting Merused puts him pretty close to it.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Let's also not forget that Toyotaro wouldn't have Whis mention Broly in any case since he wasn't formally introduced (or even name dropped yet) in the manga's serialization at the time. Anyone who just reads the comic and isn't intimately familiar with every Super-related thing would end up confused.

I don't see why that would be the case as not once but twice we had explanations of the Broly arc before Broly was properly introduced.

He wasn't just forgotten about.

[Mr Baggins]

I don't see why that would be the case as not once but twice we had explanations of the Broly arc before Broly was properly introduced.

That's not true, though. Chapter 42 just says "The next spot of trouble caused by Freeza is a tale for another time" with no further context or names mentioned. There's a small bonus chapter during Moro that briefly recaps the Broly arc, but that premiered in a Jump Victory Carnival book and isn't part of any monthly chapter.

Broly isn't formally introduced in serialization until Chapter 93, where the very first textbox says "This is Broly" and then there's a whole recap of the film afterward. Any manga exclusive audience would have no idea who he is up until that point, so it makes no sense to have Whis casually mention him in the Granolah arc.

He wasn't just forgotten about.

That isn't what I said. I'm speaking mainly from an authorial viewpoint rather than an in-universe one.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Was the flashback to the Broly movie only shown in that one extra chapter? Maybe I'm thinking if after he was introduced too.

But still between that and the double page spread, I don't see why he wouldn't be included in such things. Anyone who reads the manga still knows who he is.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not sure if Gohan and Cell are meant to be close. Gohan still tanked that punch in chapter 99.

[Hugo Boss]

Uchida, the manga editor, ranks Broly above Goku, despite Whis saying Goku and Vegeta were the strongest warriors he knew about. This is a good example of what I talked about earlier. So, in this aspect, I’m with Mr. Baggins. I just don’t think Broly is necessarily stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku yet, since they are most likely talking about different Gokus.

Not sure if Gohan and Cell are meant to be close. Gohan still tanked that punch in chapter 99.

Cell Max quickly catches up to Gohan after that though, when he powered-up that giant ki bomb. The manga shows Gohan’s response to that very differently from the movie, no smile here. He also couldn’t pierce through it as easily as in the movie, Cell Max had to be interrupted.