Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think I agree with Mr Baggins, though it's very confusing how Broly might be stronger than Beerus but Freeza is definitely below Beerus. Handwaving stuff like Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in the Granolah Saga is also tough, I guess Broly doesn't count because he can't transform at will, as silly as it sounds.

I guess Jiren would still be in the top of the chian? He's stronger than a GoD, Black Freeza isn't. Or was he just better in combat ability? Or Beerus > Freeza > Jiren > Belmond?

I imagine that Jiren is in a similar vein to Broly given that he was the one given prominence and focus in the Super Hero movie.

[Mr Baggins]

I think I agree with Mr Baggins, though it's very confusing how Broly might be stronger than Beerus but Freeza is definitely below Beerus.

I guess to be fair, the dialogue saying "might" leaves enough wiggle room for Beerus to still come out on top. So while Broly isn't necessarily stronger than Beerus, he should still logically be approaching that level of power (like Freeza) just based on the comparison being made along with everything else officially.

So yeah, I think that's the order that everyone at Shueisha intends them to be at right now. That said, with Ultra Instinct being such a fluid transformation with practically endless room to grow, Goku at least has the potential to circle back around to that #1 spot.

[ZombieVito]

I think I agree with Mr Baggins, though it's very confusing how Broly might be stronger than Beerus but Freeza is definitely below Beerus. Handwaving stuff like Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in the Granolah Saga is also tough, I guess Broly doesn't count because he can't transform at will, as silly as it sounds.

I guess Jiren would still be in the top of the chian? He's stronger than a GoD, Black Freeza isn't. Or was he just better in combat ability? Or Beerus > Freeza > Jiren > Belmond?

Broly probably got a big zenkai after fighting Gogeta.

Jiren was only confirmed to be stronger than Belmond and not Beerus.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think Broly was exactly framed to be only approaching Beerus, he actually was told be above him in more than one occasion. The ones where “God of Destruction” was mentioned:

• Saikyo Jump: "Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." (….) "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!"
• Goku: "I was pretty confident in my own strengh, but then the stronger Broly showed up. And what's more, he's Saiyan, just like me. He's probably even stronger than Beerus. And Beerus is a God!"

Broly was also said to be the strongest enemy in history in other official statements by 2019, whereas Black Freeza (December 2023) could be “close to God of Destruction?!”. I would lean towards Broly, though that’s subject to change, I think.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah I think the original intention was Broly > Beerus, but Toriyama left the line ambiguous in case they changed their minds.

I’m starting to think Jiren is just plain weaker than Belmond in raw power. Toppo says Jiren is stronger “in terms of combat skill alone”.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Despite the line about Cell Max being an enemy that perhaps not even Goku and Vegeta would defeat, in the context of the manga the implications are slightly different. This was said by Gohan, but the last time Gohan and Piccolo saw Goku and Vegeta was in the fight against Moro, so both are not aware of True Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego. Maybe their current levels aren't exactly the benchmark for this statament

I don’t think Broly was exactly framed to be only approaching Beerus, he actually was told be above him in more than one occasion. The ones where “God of Destruction” was mentioned:

• Saikyo Jump: "Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." (….) "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!"
• Goku: "I was pretty confident in my own strengh, but then the stronger Broly showed up. And what's more, he's Saiyan, just like me. He's probably even stronger than Beerus. And Beerus is a God!"

Broly was also said to be the strongest enemy in history in other official statements by 2019, whereas Black Freeza (December 2023) could be “close to God of Destruction?!”. I would lean towards Broly, though that’s subject to change, I think.

Jiren was also stated to be above the Gods of Destruction. Although the manga leans this more towards the GoD of his universe, various supplementary materials imply that he is above the GoD level in general (which would involve other GoDs as well). But we know that in the context of the manga he cannot be stronger than Beerus considering the constant implications that Beerus is still stronger than previous antagonists.

It's just a case of the character becoming a moving goalpost, making previous statements irrelevant. Like, I wouldn't say that due to these old statements Broly is above him

[QuakingStar]

Yeah, the Oracle was talking about Freeza back in the Granolah arc. The title even says the universe strongest appears when Freeza diced up Gas, Goku and Vegeta. Whis vague statement in the end of that arc about Freeza perhaps being the strongest or another in the universe emerging is in step with Whis stating at the start of the Granolah arc; that you don't know when the strongest bad guy may show up. After Goku asked Whis if there is anyone stronger than he and Vegeta.

This is in line with the theme of the Granolah arc too, when Vegeta and Monaito told Granolah that titles are only momentary. Literally a flash in time and that you don't know what tomorrow may bring. Which is why the Granolah arc consistently ends with Whis stating maybe the other strongest emerged instead of Freeza. Who would that be? The one consistently stated to be better [more potential] than Goku and Vegeta in Gohan. Enter Super Hero arc.

Right now the order goes...

1.Gohan [stated by Toriyama himself to be truly strongest or that it is said [History of DB].
2.Freeza [was number one][
3.Vegeta [Just beat Goku using Jiren's technique]
4.Goku [Was strongest after pounding Gas with True UI]
5.Piccolo [Stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta]
6.Broly [Not said to be among the best in the universe when Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were competing for top three in universe]
6.Cell Max [Current Villain]

Agreed. The owner of it all himself said Gohan was the strongest or so it is said, then he adds BUT which is important here. BUT Gohan had not had the chance to shine recently. The SHINE was him being the MC alongside Piccolo, getting Beast, and killing Cell Max. Everyone always loves to bring up the BUT in the Cell Max part but ignore the BUT in the Gohan part.

Gohan even if its just a PL difference of 1 is the strongest up to the last chapter of the SH arc, after that he could be surpassed again. Toriyama also blatantly implies Gohan will likely have another transformation later but doesn't know how he will make it look.

[Miracles]

Yeah, the Oracle was talking about Freeza back in the Granolah arc. The title even says the universe strongest appears when Freeza diced up Gas, Goku and Vegeta. Whis vague statement in the end of that arc about Freeza perhaps being the strongest or another in the universe emerging is in step with Whis stating at the start of the Granolah arc; that you don't know when the strongest bad guy may show up. After Goku asked Whis if there is anyone stronger than he and Vegeta.

This is in line with the theme of the Granolah arc too, when Vegeta and Monaito told Granolah that titles are only momentary. Literally a flash in time and that you don't know what tomorrow may bring. Which is why the Granolah arc consistently ends with Whis stating maybe the other strongest emerged instead of Freeza. Who would that be? The one consistently stated to be better [more potential] than Goku and Vegeta in Gohan. Enter Super Hero arc.

Right now the order goes...

1.Gohan [stated by Toriyama himself to be truly strongest or that it is said [History of DB].
2.Freeza [was number one][
3.Vegeta [Just beat Goku using Jiren's technique]
4.Goku [Was strongest after pounding Gas with True UI]
5.Piccolo [Stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta]
6.Broly [Not said to be among the best in the universe when Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were competing for top three in universe]
6.Cell Max [Current Villain]

I would personally put Broly in number 3 based on Goku and Vegeta's reactions in chapter 93. Sure, they mention Broly destroying the planet if he snapped but if they were truly superior than him then I'm sure they can put him down before that happens.

P.S. Seeing Piccolo up there with the top dogs of the universe really makes me happy. It's something I wanted for a very long time. Hopefully he and Gohan don't get forgotten again.

Yeah, lets hope Gohan and Piccolo don't get forgotten. As for my placement of Broly, he wasn't even considered [thought of] being a contender in the Granolah arc. On top of that, the two star DB wishes Granolah and Gas made subjected Broly to their number one power. Humiliating him even more. Unless Broly was out of universe seven like Freeza was, this is the only way for Broly to be exempt from Toronbo's wish. So yeah, based on canonical info Goku/Vegeta are above Broly. The worry for Broly destroying the planet is more of a concern for the training. Not that any of the characters there couldn't stop him.

Yeah, the Oracle was talking about Freeza back in the Granolah arc. The title even says the universe strongest appears when Freeza diced up Gas, Goku and Vegeta. Whis vague statement in the end of that arc about Freeza perhaps being the strongest or another in the universe emerging is in step with Whis stating at the start of the Granolah arc; that you don't know when the strongest bad guy may show up. After Goku asked Whis if there is anyone stronger than he and Vegeta.

This is in line with the theme of the Granolah arc too, when Vegeta and Monaito told Granolah that titles are only momentary. Literally a flash in time and that you don't know what tomorrow may bring. Which is why the Granolah arc consistently ends with Whis stating maybe the other strongest emerged instead of Freeza. Who would that be? The one consistently stated to be better [more potential] than Goku and Vegeta in Gohan. Enter Super Hero arc.

Right now the order goes...

1.Gohan [stated by Toriyama himself to be truly strongest or that it is said [History of DB].
2.Freeza [was number one][
3.Vegeta [Just beat Goku using Jiren's technique]
4.Goku [Was strongest after pounding Gas with True UI]
5.Piccolo [Stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta]
6.Broly [Not said to be among the best in the universe when Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were competing for top three in universe]
6.Cell Max [Current Villain]

Agreed. The owner of it all himself said Gohan was the strongest or so it is said, then he adds BUT which is important here. BUT Gohan had not had the chance to shine recently. The SHINE was him being the MC alongside Piccolo, getting Beast, and killing Cell Max. Everyone always loves to bring up the BUT in the Cell Max part but ignore the BUT in the Gohan part.

Gohan even if its just a PL difference of 1 is the strongest up to the last chapter of the SH arc, after that he could be surpassed again. Toriyama also blatantly implies Gohan will likely have another transformation later but doesn't know how he will make it look.

Good point. The text on Gohan from Toriyama does not contrast until after he states Gohan is the strongest and it being said using the word "but." So Gohan is the strongest, it's just that we haven't seen him showcase it recently. Now we did in Superhero therefore Gohan is the man now because Toriyama the man himself said so.

[Hugo Boss]

Despite the line about Cell Max being an enemy that perhaps not even Goku and Vegeta would defeat, in the context of the manga the implications are slightly different. This was said by Gohan, but the last time Gohan and Piccolo saw Goku and Vegeta was in the fight against Moro, so both are not aware of True Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego. Maybe their current levels aren't exactly the benchmark for this statament

I think using Goku and Vegeta’s strongest versions make sense, because Orange Piccolo currently shares the No.5 spot with them, according to Toriyama’s recent data. It depends on what Toriyama was thinking about when he made the statement, but theoretically he was heavily involved in the rankings of the fight against Gas and Freeza.

Jiren was also stated to be above the Gods of Destruction. Although the manga leans this more towards the GoD of his universe, various supplementary materials imply that he is above the GoD level in general (which would involve other GoDs as well). But we know that in the context of the manga he cannot be stronger than Beerus considering the constant implications that Beerus is still stronger than previous antagonists.

It's just a case of the character becoming a moving goalpost, making previous statements irrelevant. Like, I wouldn't say that due to these old statements Broly is above him

Hence why I said that could be subjected to change. Toriyama implied Gohan would be strongest before Super Hero debuted, but after the movie he remembered Broly existed and implied Broly was No.1 again, as Cell Max couldn’t be completed. Freeza is also framed as a threat greater than Cell Max, but not above Beerus. I only think the No.1 spot is still not as conclusive as someone would think.

[Thani]

I’m starting to think Jiren is just plain weaker than Belmond in raw power. Toppo says Jiren is stronger “in terms of combat skill alone”.

I think that would be more or less correct. In raw power, Jiren wasn't that much stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, according to Super Hero. He can make the difference seem overwhelming, though, by being such a ridiculously good martial artist that he can punch way above his weight class.

So he can potentially beat even Gods of Destruction, despite having (way?) less power, by compensating with being a real good fighter. At the very least, Belmod canonically can't beat him, which lends credence to this idea.

[Mr Baggins]

^ Bingo. The narrative thrust of the manga and movies is that Jiren is a grandmaster tier martial artist, not some crazy over the top powerhouse that's "stronger than time" or whatever. He's the opposite of Broly in that while he isn't necessarily overflowing with raw power, he has such perfect control over it that he can tango with just about anyone.

I'd say he's very likely somewhere between Belmod and Beerus as a combatant, though I suppose there's always room for debate in that regard.

[QuakingStar]

Nah, even in raw power in the manga Jiren was above Blue Evolved Vegeta, and equal to UI Goku even though he started out lower. It also depends on if Goku and Vegeta have seen Jiren since the ToP, maybe he got stronger again and they saw him? who knows.

Toriyama's statements on Gohan were only based on one BUT and he met the requirement for that. On Cell Max's statement he never mentioned anyone else but Broly.

So we have "Gohan is the strongest" then the Cell Max statement which includes Broly. Orange Piccolo is supposed to be on Par with Goku. So in order of things, Toriyama seems to place Gohan once he meets the requirement of "getting the shine" aka Beast and killing Cell Max above Broly who is still above Cell Max who is above Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo.

Black Frieza is clearly above Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo as well and the whole statement of keeping Broly safe from Frieza on Beerus planet implies Black Frieza is above Broly as well.

[ZombieVito]

Nah, even in raw power in the manga Jiren was above Blue Evolved Vegeta, and equal to UI Goku even though he started out lower. It also depends on if Goku and Vegeta have seen Jiren since the ToP, maybe he got stronger again and they saw him? who knows.

Toriyama's statements on Gohan were only based on one BUT and he met the requirement for that. On Cell Max's statement he never mentioned anyone else but Broly.

So we have "Gohan is the strongest" then the Cell Max statement which includes Broly. Orange Piccolo is supposed to be on Par with Goku. So in order of things, Toriyama seems to place Gohan once he meets the requirement of "getting the shine" aka Beast and killing Cell Max above Broly who is still above Cell Max who is above Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo.

Black Frieza is clearly above Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo as well and the whole statement of keeping Broly safe from Frieza on Beerus planet implies Black Frieza is above Broly as well.

I was about to say this. Even in the manga Jiren fought SSBE Vegeta who he himself said was a considerable change from SSB. There's just no way Jiren is close to SSB.

[Hugo Boss]

the whole statement of keeping Broly safe from Frieza on Beerus planet implies Black Frieza is above Broly as well.

Not sure about that. Despite being very strong, Broly can’t get to full power instantly like the other Saiyans do. He is working on it, so that when the time comes he can fight properly. Goku also implied that he wanted to give him peace of mind, not only safety.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, the level of power that Toriyama originally envisioned for the likes of Jiren and Broly was a bit more reasonable, equivalent to a Super Saiyan's worth of power over SSB a.k.a. equal to Super Saiyan Broly.

it's a major step-up from SSB that requires alternate new power-ups to reach, whether that be Ultra Instinct or Fusion. And it's conveniently higher than the highest Kaioken and Evolution boosts.

However, the anime and the Broly movie gave further power-ups to Jiren and Broly respectively to make them even stronger to showcase their level of power as truly being at the level of a God of Destruction.

Broly has his Super Saiyan Full-Power form, and Jiren now apparently multiplies his large power level through technique. But the baseline seems to be SSB boosted further by a factor of Super Saiyan.

[Mr Baggins]

I was about to say this. Even in the manga Jiren fought SSBE Vegeta who he himself said was a considerable change from SSB. There's just no way Jiren is close to SSB.

Do you people always over-scrutinize "feats" while completely ignoring the narrative?

Chapters 39 and 40 have entire spiels about Goku being unable to overcome his wall because he erroneously assumes he needs more power rather than re-evaluating how he should wield that power, and it's something that Jiren is consistently credited for being better at than the Saiyans. Jiren is obviously stronger, but his skill as a fighter is the main reason for that massive gap between them.

This is literally the whole crux of Goku's growth in the arc, my dude. The movie isn't saying anything new.

[ZombieVito]

I was about to say this. Even in the manga Jiren fought SSBE Vegeta who he himself said was a considerable change from SSB. There's just no way Jiren is close to SSB.

Do you people always over-scrutinize "feats" while completely ignoring the narrative?

Chapters 39 and 40 have entire spiels about Goku being unable to overcome his wall because he erroneously assumes he needs more power rather than re-evaluating how he should wield that power, and it's something that Jiren is consistently credited for being better at than the Saiyans. Jiren is obviously stronger, but his skill as a fighter is the main reason for that massive gap between them.

This is literally the whole crux of Goku's growth in the arc, my dude. The movie isn't saying anything new.

Jiren literally says there's a considerable gap between SSBE and SSB...

[Jack Bz]

I’m starting to think Jiren is just plain weaker than Belmond in raw power. Toppo says Jiren is stronger “in terms of combat skill alone”.

I think that would be more or less correct. In raw power, Jiren wasn't that much stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, according to Super Hero. He can make the difference seem overwhelming, though, by being such a ridiculously good martial artist that he can punch way above his weight class.

So he can potentially beat even Gods of Destruction, despite having (way?) less power, by compensating with being a real good fighter. At the very least, Belmod canonically can't beat him, which lends credence to this idea.

Although the english translation says "combat skill", in japanese the term Toppo used is essentially what the whole manga has used for "power level". To directly quote Cipher:

The phrase used by Toppo in Japanese is 戦闘力 (sentoryoku)--the exact same one used for battle/combat power for the Saiyans' and Freeza's numerical scouter readings.

So the implication to me on that scene is that Jiren is stronger than Belmod but might still lose an actual fight to some technique he has or something.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I was about to say this. Even in the manga Jiren fought SSBE Vegeta who he himself said was a considerable change from SSB. There's just no way Jiren is close to SSB.

Do you people always over-scrutinize "feats" while completely ignoring the narrative?

Chapters 39 and 40 have entire spiels about Goku being unable to overcome his wall because he erroneously assumes he needs more power rather than re-evaluating how he should wield that power, and it's something that Jiren is consistently credited for being better at than the Saiyans. Jiren is obviously stronger, but his skill as a fighter is the main reason for that massive gap between them.

This is literally the whole crux of Goku's growth in the arc, my dude. The movie isn't saying anything new.

Jiren literally says there's a considerable gap between SSBE and SSB...

And even if only by sheer coincedence, Jiren being around as strong as Super Saiyan Broly in terms of his "true" power level would conveniently make him not that far off of Vegeta and Goku back during the Tournament of Power and Broly film.

[Mr Baggins]

Jiren literally says there's a considerable gap between SSBE and SSB...

Okay. That doesn't counter anything I (or rather, the manga and movie) established about why Jiren can fight at the level he does. Just read the text.

And even if only by sheer coincedence, Jiren being around as strong as Super Saiyan Broly in terms of his "true" power level would conveniently make him not that far off of Vegeta and Goku back during the Tournament of Power and Broly film.

If you're referring to Broly's initial Super Saiyan state, that's more or less where I'd put his raw strength as well. Maybe a bit weaker, but somewhere within that ballpark sounds fair.