Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Way I'm seeing this argument, the whole thing is that the amount of power that their bodies can express can't go much higher in terms of sheer amount of Ki (denoted by "training their muscles"), and now the way that Ki is expressed is the way to go even further beyond.

[Hugo Boss]

Whatever tool he is using to translate what it’s being said in those instances, it’s equivocally inserting physical strength where stamina is the most preferred take, in my viewpoint. While sometimes they can be used interchangeably (stamina can be the physical and/or mental strength to do something that might be difficult and will take a long time), they are not exactly the same in this particular case.

Besides, what Cipher said in his analysis is not in anyway different from how I’m interpreting the scene. It was Jiren’s continuous increase of power and speed that was pushing Goku out of ultra instinct, but let’s not forget that Goku’s heightened movements were also edging Jiren’s limits. It was a burden for both.

I see that ultimately Jiren was superior to Goku in their fight, but not because he is physically stronger than Goku in the literal sense, but because of his higher endurance. You can call it determination if you want or mental strength, that’s what Jiren himself implied.

Same way with Moro, Goku and him were pretty much equal in physical strength, power and speed, except for endurance. Goku fixed this problem, therefore I think it’s too much of a stretch to suggest that he can’t beat that Jiren the way he is now.

[ankokudaishogun]

I see that ultimately Jiren was superior to Goku in their fight, but not because he is physically stronger than Goku in the literal sense, but because of his higher endurance. You can call it determination if you want or mental strength, that’s what Jiren himself implied.

interesting enough, Anime Jiren did end up losing against UI Goku because mental strength, not physical strength=endurance
In fact, had he not lost his will to fight, he would have been able to tank UI Goku that bit longer enough for Goku to get the side effect of limit-breaking so hard.

[Hugo Boss]

interesting enough, Anime Jiren did end up losing against UI Goku because mental strength, not physical strength=endurance
In fact, had he not lost his will to fight, he would have been able to tank UI Goku that bit longer enough for Goku to get the side effect of limit-breaking so hard.

Yeah, in that respect, I think the manga gives the best representation of Jiren’s character and explains better why he is such a formidable foe. I just don’t believe he is capable of defeating an user of perfect ultra instinct that can properly endure it, even with the mental strength he possesses. Best case scenario in my opinion is that he can go toe-to-toe with Moro, but Moro’s magic would make him superior.

[Miracles]

I’m not sure what you mean by past~present tense, but I’m talking about what Vegeta says in the manga. In the movie, Vegeta says Jiren wasn’t much stronger than them, but used his power more efficiently. In the manga, Vegeta says he and Goku are physically on par with all their recent foes since long, but need to use their power better.

It’s interesting to note that Herms also brought up the fact that Vegeta said something similar in episode #30 from the Super anime, after they have defeated Golden Freeza. So, it doesn’t seem like Vegeta is suggesting they have just reached that physical limit, this is something they have done sometime around Champa arc and needed other means to keep evolving.

At any rate, I think Toyotaro wanted to throw a nod to DBS manga-only content, but ended up making the scene even more confusing for the reader. It wasn’t the best decision in my opinion. I would actually have removed the stuff about Goku being oblivious to meditation and about all those recent foes having the same quirk that Jiren has. They have nothing to learn from Broly, Moro and Gas in the “relaxed” fighting style. I wonder if Freeza is capable of that either.

Essentially, this statement means Goku and Vegeta have trained themselves to a point where Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza and slightly above them right now.

It doesn't make sense to say this is referring to their physical body alone, since Goku already had a better Physical body than Moro in the Moro arc, hence why Goku could handle UI and Moro couldn't.

Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas + Frieza > TUI Goku and UE vegeta right now.

Vegeta said that he was "shown" to be inferior to all these foes [Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Black Freeza] in "recent years."

Vegeta is talking about past tense, when he fought each of these individuals [In their respective arcs] as to why he was weaker than them. Right now only Black Freeza is stated to be above them. Especially since recent events that happened in the Granolah arc, Goku/Vegeta are no way weaker than any of those other past foes.

[ankokudaishogun]

Yeah, in that respect, I think the manga gives the best representation of Jiren’s character and explains better why he is such a formidable foe

I disagree, mostly because Anime Jiren and Manga Jiren are vastly different characters(with even different character-defining backstories!), similar how Manga Zamasu&Black and Anime Zamasu&Black have diametrically opposite relationships

I agree the anime went overboard in making him so powerful, most likely because they did know it was going to end and they wanted to finish with a BANG, but the anime also put a lot of effort in portraying him as a superior martial artist.
For all his overwhelming power, he spent most of the time avoiding being hit and responding with surgical strikes.

When he DOES go for full brute force, his Super Full Power mode, it's basically a Kaiohken state and ends up leaving him utterly exhausted

and the final fight against Goku, Freeza and #17 it's also him being stronger than them, yes, but also outskilling them

[QuakingStar]

Yeah, in that respect, I think the manga gives the best representation of Jiren’s character and explains better why he is such a formidable foe

I disagree, mostly because Anime Jiren and Manga Jiren are vastly different characters(with even different character-defining backstories!), similar how Manga Zamasu&Black and Anime Zamasu&Black have diametrically opposite relationships

I agree the anime went overboard in making him so powerful, most likely because they did know it was going to end and they wanted to finish with a BANG, but the anime also put a lot of effort in portraying him as a superior martial artist.
For all his overwhelming power, he spent most of the time avoiding being hit and responding with surgical strikes.

When he DOES go for full brute force, his Super Full Power mode, it's basically a Kaiohken state and ends up leaving him utterly exhausted

and the final fight against Goku, Freeza and #17 it's also him being stronger than them, yes, but also outskilling them

That wasn't some Kaioken like mode, that was just him breaking his limits and by that point he was already damaged by UI Goku and had expended a lot of stamina already, He then gets a mental block which he doesn't break out of until Tops words near the end. If Jiren was at 100% when he awakened his Super Full Power state he would have undoubtedly have won the Tournament of Power but plot will be plot.

I do agree he was not just stronger than them, but more skilled too.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

After all of this time, it still seems that the fandom hasn't squared the circle of how Jiren and TOP UI fit into the power hierarchy of the story.

Black Frieza is stated to be "close" to a God of Destruction, placing him below Belmod whom is inferior to Jiren. This understandably creates confusion since we see manga UI being stomped by sub-God of Destruction level power later on. Even in the manga continuity, Jiren is placed above all Gods via promotional material.

True UI is>UI while still being below God of Destruction level. However when assessing silver UI's power, people have skimmed over the fact that UI has two distinct levels of power in the story.

One is the normal level that Goku casually pops in to, and the other is a "last resort" level of UI alluded to by Whis that he doesn't necessarily have the ability to use at will. This is the silver form that overpowered Gas despite the former being>True UI, and it also destroyed Moro. The UI avatar is associated with this.

Theoretically we can have a chain of:

Last Resort UI Goku(Granolah arc)>Last Resort UI Goku(Moro arc)>Broly>TOP UI Goku=Jiren>All Gods of Destruction>Black Frieza>True UI Goku=Ultra Ego Vegeta>UI Goku(Normal level)

The only assumption we would have to make here is that TOP UI was of the last resort UI type, but was too short lived and inefficient to show the full scope of UI's abilities due to Goku's lack of training.

[Hugo Boss]

The only assumption we would have to make here is that TOP UI was of the last resort UI type, but was too short lived and inefficient to show the full scope of UI's abilities due to Goku's lack of training.

I’m not convinced by it. Nothing points to that version being stronger than the ones that appeared later. I think it’s good idea to suggest that Goku has a ultimate move that he can only access with a specific condition though.

By the way, Zombie Gas was theoretically above Goku in this giant avatar state, and Black Freeza was above him. So, you might have to revise your chains.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Was it ever made clear where Base Goku's strength was meant to be in Super in the end of not?

Are we still meant to believe that Base Cabba, Base Caulifla and basically anyone above that is still well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or what?

[ZombieVito]

Was it ever made clear where Base Goku's strength was meant to be in Super in the end of not?

Are we still meant to believe that Base Cabba, Base Caulifla and basically anyone above that is still well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or what?

Yes? We literally see someone exactly as strong as base Vegeta wreck SS3 Gotenks.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Was it ever made clear where Base Goku's strength was meant to be in Super in the end of not?

Are we still meant to believe that Base Cabba, Base Caulifla and basically anyone above that is still well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or what?

In the manga, before training with Merus, Goku is at most comparable to DBZ Ultimate Gohan. Frost is stronger than Base Goku but struggles with U9, who struggled with Gohan.

Anime he’s at least Buutenks level.

After all of this time, it still seems that the fandom hasn't squared the circle of how Jiren and TOP UI fit into the power hierarchy of the story.

Black Frieza is stated to be "close" to a God of Destruction, placing him below Belmod whom is inferior to Jiren. This understandably creates confusion since we see manga UI being stomped by sub-God of Destruction level power later on. Even in the manga continuity, Jiren is placed above all Gods via promotional material.

True UI is>UI while still being below God of Destruction level. However when assessing silver UI's power, people have skimmed over the fact that UI has two distinct levels of power in the story.

One is the normal level that Goku casually pops in to, and the other is a "last resort" level of UI alluded to by Whis that he doesn't necessarily have the ability to use at will. This is the silver form that overpowered Gas despite the former being>True UI, and it also destroyed Moro. The UI avatar is associated with this.

Theoretically we can have a chain of:

Last Resort UI Goku(Granolah arc)>Last Resort UI Goku(Moro arc)>Broly>TOP UI Goku=Jiren>All Gods of Destruction>Black Frieza>True UI Goku=Ultra Ego Vegeta>UI Goku(Normal level)

The only assumption we would have to make here is that TOP UI was of the last resort UI type, but was too short lived and inefficient to show the full scope of UI's abilities due to Goku's lack of training.

I think you’re up to something, only problem is UI Goku has nothing special going on in the ToP. There’s no giant Ki avatar or anything.

[Kazuya Mishima]

So it really was bad writing after all.

[ZombieVito]

So it really was bad writing after all.

Huh?

[Kazuya Mishima]

So it really was bad writing after all.

Huh?

It's terrible writing for everyone from as little as Base Cabba upwards to be at least as strong as Buuhan.

[Mr Baggins]

So it really was bad writing after all.

That's the TV anime for you.

[ZombieVito]

It's terrible writing for everyone from as little as Base Cabba upwards to be at least as strong as Buuhan.

But why?

I will never get this complaint.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes, making characters relevant is terrible writing. Manga Cabba is much better because he’s Raditz level, your true average Saiyan. Actually weaker, Raditz was an elite.

[Kazuya Mishima]

But why?

I will never get this complaint.

How is it not? Cabba was a scrawny little adolescent who didn't even know what a Super Saiyan was.

And yet he's stronger than Buuhan? When just regular Super Buu was already more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A Super Buu who then absorbed the prodigy Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo on top that required Super Vegito to defeat.

He's somehow on par with a Vegeta is twice his age and been in all manner of life and death battles. Trained with gravity machines, had his power unlocked by a wizard, trained under an Angel etc.

And Cabba is just a chump. Caulifla is even stronger than he is. That Monna was stronger than him as a Super Saiyan. Were meant to believe that Buuhan would be absolutely worthless compared to everyone?

Even aside from that none of it makes sense. How is Super Saiyan 2 Trunks able to match Super Saiyan 2 Goku if just Base Goku is stronger than Buuhan? He struggled with Dabura just a year beforehand.

Base Goku is stronger than Buuhan but then you've got Android 17 who can fight him as a Super Saiyan? If his power could skyrocket that quickly then why didn't he show up and defeat Buu?

How is Gohan matching Goku on two separate occasions if Goku is above Buuhan and Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 in the Zen Exhibition still isn't as strong as his former Buu arc self?

It's terrible writing for it to be perceived that way.

[QuakingStar]

But why?

I will never get this complaint.

How is it not? Cabba was a scrawny little adolescent who didn't even know what a Super Saiyan was.

And yet he's stronger than Buuhan? When just regular Super Buu was already more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A Super Buu who then absorbed the prodigy Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo on top that required Super Vegito to defeat.

He's somehow on par with a Vegeta is twice his age and been in all manner of life and death battles. Trained with gravity machines, had his power unlocked by a wizard, trained under an Angel etc.

And Cabba is just a chump. Caulifla is even stronger than he is. That Monna was stronger than him as a Super Saiyan. Were meant to believe that Buuhan would be absolutely worthless compared to everyone?

Even aside from that none of it makes sense. How is Super Saiyan 2 Trunks able to match Super Saiyan 2 Goku if just Base Goku is stronger than Buuhan? He struggled with Dabura just a year beforehand.

Base Goku is stronger than Buuhan but then you've got Android 17 who can fight him as a Super Saiyan? If his power could skyrocket that quickly then why didn't he show up and defeat Buu?

How is Gohan matching Goku on two separate occasions if Goku is above Buuhan and Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 in the Zen Exhibition still isn't as strong as his former Buu arc self?

It's terrible writing for it to be perceived that way.

At least with Trunks its kind of explained. The ritual to draw out ones power, dancing for 24hrs turned out to be a thing that was done for all Supreme Kai apprentices so Trunks had it done too. So Trunks had his potential drawn out and then went SS2 on top of it at least that's how it seemed to me. But yeah power creep has always been a problem in DB and this is all just showing it further. There was zero reason why Cabba was as strong as he was outside of the plot needing power creep to make him as such I guess.