Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Cabba and Caulifla don’t need to be at Raditz level, but it should be a given they aren’t stronger than Super Saiyans in their base forms. Kale has that treatment because she is like Broly.

From my perspective, Base Goku and Base Vegeta, after polishing what they were lacking, can manage to fight on equal foot with Base Broly and Base Kale in the manga. That’s as far as I can guess for now.

[Koitsukai]

At least with Trunks its kind of explained. The ritual to draw out ones power, dancing for 24hrs turned out to be a thing that was done for all Supreme Kai apprentices so Trunks had it done too. So Trunks had his potential drawn out and then went SS2 on top of it at least that's how it seemed to me. But yeah power creep has always been a problem in DB and this is all just showing it further. There was zero reason why Cabba was as strong as he was outside of the plot needing power creep to make him as such I guess.

You know, I might be wrong because I don't recall exactly how things played out, but I do remember Shin calling Trunks into action right before the Z sword was about to break in half(thus not releasing the dude that unlocks potential) as a tragic cliffhanger that screams "oh now see how close Trunks was to actually becoming strong enough for both of them to survive".

[ZombieVito]

How is it not? Cabba was a scrawny little adolescent who didn't even know what a Super Saiyan was.

And yet he's stronger than Buuhan? When just regular Super Buu was already more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A Super Buu who then absorbed the prodigy Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo on top that required Super Vegito to defeat.

He's somehow on par with a Vegeta is twice his age and been in all manner of life and death battles. Trained with gravity machines, had his power unlocked by a wizard, trained under an Angel etc.

And Cabba is just a chump. Caulifla is even stronger than he is. That Monna was stronger than him as a Super Saiyan. Were meant to believe that Buuhan would be absolutely worthless compared to everyone?

Even aside from that none of it makes sense. How is Super Saiyan 2 Trunks able to match Super Saiyan 2 Goku if just Base Goku is stronger than Buuhan? He struggled with Dabura just a year beforehand.

Base Goku is stronger than Buuhan but then you've got Android 17 who can fight him as a Super Saiyan? If his power could skyrocket that quickly then why didn't he show up and defeat Buu?

How is Gohan matching Goku on two separate occasions if Goku is above Buuhan and Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 in the Zen Exhibition still isn't as strong as his former Buu arc self?

It's terrible writing for it to be perceived that way.

None of this determines power. Since when things like appearance matter when it comes to being powerful? Cabba not knowing what Super Saiyan is doesn't mean he hasn't trained and fought many battles like Vegeta. The Saiyans of U6 fight for a living after all. They also evolved differently from the U7 ones.

Yes, Boohan would not have fared well in DBS, just like Namek Freeza would have not fared well against the Androids or Cell. It's just how the series is. Every villain becomes obsolete one arc after they are dealt with.

Future Trunks became that strong because he was Black's punching bag for a year. His Saiyan adaptation kicked in. It's not that deep.

17 trained for over a decade. There's nothing wrong with his power up. He didn't show up against Boo because he can't sense Ki. It should be obvious.

You are confusing sparring matches with real ones. Gohan and Goku were just having fun.

[Miracles]

After all of this time, it still seems that the fandom hasn't squared the circle of how Jiren and TOP UI fit into the power hierarchy of the story.

Black Frieza is stated to be "close" to a God of Destruction, placing him below Belmod whom is inferior to Jiren. This understandably creates confusion since we see manga UI being stomped by sub-God of Destruction level power later on. Even in the manga continuity, Jiren is placed above all Gods via promotional material.

True UI is>UI while still being below God of Destruction level. However when assessing silver UI's power, people have skimmed over the fact that UI has two distinct levels of power in the story.

One is the normal level that Goku casually pops in to, and the other is a "last resort" level of UI alluded to by Whis that he doesn't necessarily have the ability to use at will. This is the silver form that overpowered Gas despite the former being>True UI, and it also destroyed Moro. The UI avatar is associated with this.

Theoretically we can have a chain of:

Last Resort UI Goku(Granolah arc)>Last Resort UI Goku(Moro arc)>Broly>TOP UI Goku=Jiren>All Gods of Destruction>Black Frieza>True UI Goku=Ultra Ego Vegeta>UI Goku(Normal level)

The only assumption we would have to make here is that TOP UI was of the last resort UI type, but was too short lived and inefficient to show the full scope of UI's abilities due to Goku's lack of training.

Canonically Jiren was only stronger than his god of destruction Belmond. UI Goku in the TOP was slightly stronger than Jiren however Goku couldn't keep the form UI.

When we entered the Galactic Patrol arc Goku achieved UI and could now finally keep the form. Making him much stronger than his TOP UI version and Jiren. Merus himself even stated that Goku at his current strength UI would be far more stable than ever.

Then we enter the Granolah arc where Goku was getting deeper and deeper to the mastery of UI. Where Whis states that there are levels, where Merus was lower than Whis and the Grand Priest was at a higher level. Goku could now use UI in lower forms. True UI was only stronger than UI [Silver haired] because Goku could not still completely master his emotions with Silver Haired UI. So True UI was used to compensate in order to use what he learned from Bardock.

So it is obvious that current Goku in the manga is far above TOP Jiren and his TOP UI. The deeper Goku got into UI [More stable] the more powerful his UI got and the stronger the opponents from last arc he faced because of it.

Black Freeza [Beat up the strongest forms of Goku and Vegeta who competed for tops in the universe with Gas/Granolah] > Gas >Granolah > Moro > Broly > Jiren > Belmond.

[SupremeKai25]

People just need to accept the power-creep. Once people understand what "power-creep" is, all will make sense and all will be logical.

Buuhan is no longer relevant in DBS, he got power-crept by the SSG ritual. Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale are hanging around a Post-SSG Ritual, so they are beyond Buuhan.

ToP Jiren is no longer relevant in DBS, he got power-crept by Broly who, himself, got power-crept by Moro, the "strongest opponent" that Goku has ever seen.

What remains relevant is a hypothetical version of Jiren who can train and better master his techniques/meditation. But Jiren as he appeared in ToP is left in the dust by the power-creep.

Power-creep is one of the staples of Shonen, for better or worse, and Dragon Ball is most certainly no exception.

In DBZ, you had Frieza getting power-crept HARD by Trunks and the Androids, for instance.

What I don't understand is why some people (mostly fans of the Original) are willing to accept the insane power-creep of DBZ, but draw a line at the power-creep of DBS.

Why people are willing to accept Frieza getting annihilated like a fodder by Trunks early on in the next arc, but they can't accept more evolved Saiyans annihilating Buuhan 3 arcs later? Or Jiren no longer being relevant after 6 years? (Reminder that the ToP arc was 6 years ago)

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think the idea of power-creep is the problem in this case. It’s the lack of subtext or direct reference suggesting X has done things proving that he is stronger than Y.

For instance, we take as a given that Trunks is stronger than Freeza because we actually see him beating Freeza and the androids later beating him. That doesn’t happen in a lot of situations in DB Super. It goes back and forth multiple times, specially in the anime.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Cabba not knowing what Super Saiyan is doesn't mean he hasn't trained and fought many battles like Vegeta. The Saiyans of U6 fight for a living after all. They also evolved differently from the U7 ones.

He couldn't have trained that hard if he couldn't become a Super Saiyan. Couldn't have been in any real life and death battles.

They evolved differently and they said they had no tails. Never that they were naturally vastly superior.

Future Trunks became that strong because he was Black's punching bag for a year. His Saiyan adaptation kicked in. It's not that deep.

No that's largely assumption. It wasn't said how often he fought Goku Black and they never once said he got stronger after each beating.

Goku and Vegeta have been punching bags for longer. Have gravity machines to use. Train with weighting clothing. Have each other to spar with. Have trained under an Angel. Have acquired some kind of God Ki.

He was only said to have been stronger than Gohan from the Cell Games. Not somehow stronger than Buuhan because it makes no sense.

17 trained for over a decade. There's nothing wrong with his power up.

No he didn't train. He got stronger from working with the beasts on Monster Island.

And somehow that allows him to go from being far weaker than even Imperfect Cell to dozens of stronger than Buuhan? With that rate of growth he'd have been the strongest character in DBZ by far. He could have shown up and killed Buuhan in an instant.

You are confusing sparring matches with real ones. Gohan and Goku were just having fun.

It was a serious sparring session. This is supposedly someone who can stand there and Gotenks can't even phase him. Yet they can spar and somehow be evenly matched.

For some reason Gohan trains to merely acquire the power he used to have during the Buu arc and then less than 2 days later his ordinary Base form can match Base Goku's Buuhan level+ one.

It's just plain shit writing.

Obviously it was written in a way so that on one hand Base Goku and Vegeta were meant to have some high Godly power but then that clearly was never meant to be the intent. So it's made everyone else who they fight drastically more powerful than they are meant to be by result.

Base Trunks is not above Buuhan. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is more comparable to Dabura. He is then able to give Super Saiyan 2 Goku a challenge because he has strength similar to his Buu arc self but then no because Base Goku is also stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks because....it's just shit writing.

[Yuji]

Was it ever made clear where Base Goku's strength was meant to be in Super in the end of not?

Are we still meant to believe that Base Cabba, Base Caulifla and basically anyone above that is still well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or what?

In the manga we have no indications Goku and Vegeta's base form have got significantly stronger than their Boo arc selves until their respective Moro arc training sessions, which is the first time in Super we actually see serious improvements to their physical and Ki strength. Before then, power-ups had come mostly via unlocking new forms or optimizing the forms they already had.

Goku never absorbs the God power, Trunks is compared to Dabra and Cell Games Gohan, #17 only scraps with SS2 and 3, Majin Boo is still seen as strong and valuable fighter, Gohan keeps training semi-regularly and thus builds on his Boo arc strength following RoF, Goku resorts to cycling through his Super Saiyan forms much more often in order to gauge opponents rather than just using Base or Blue.

[TobyS]

Was it ever made clear where Base Goku's strength was meant to be in Super in the end of not?

Are we still meant to believe that Base Cabba, Base Caulifla and basically anyone above that is still well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or what?

In the manga we have no indications Goku and Vegeta's base form have got significantly stronger than their Boo arc selves until their respective Moro arc training sessions, which is the first time in Super we actually see serious improvements to their physical and Ki strength. Before then, power-ups had come mostly via unlocking new forms or optimizing the forms they already had.

Goku never absorbs the God power, Trunks is compared to Dabra and Cell Games Gohan, #17 only scraps with SS2 and 3, Majin Boo is still seen as strong and valuable fighter, Gohan keeps training semi-regularly and thus builds on his Boo arc strength following RoF, Goku resorts to cycling through his Super Saiyan forms much more often in order to gauge opponents rather than just using Base or Blue.

The only outlier is the zen exhibition match where shin is hurt more than son by rumoshi but I personally consider that more a gag at shins expense than a serious powerscaling statement.

Could be it affects people who only have god ki more and goku was spared because he was in base, maybe his hearings better, who knows. Otherwise I totally agree with you but yeah people always bring that up.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Yeah so really the story has it so that Goku and Vegeta in their Base and Super Saiyan forms isn't far removed from their Buu arc selves so matters with Trunks and Cabba and other things is just fine.

The anime is all over the place because it's supposed to be the same but then they also went and portrayed Base Goku and Vegeta as being absurdly powerful which has jacked everyone up to a point it doesn't make sense.

It's like Base Goku is still meant to have this Super Saiyan God type strength like what was portrayed in Resurrection F but they also did away with the idea aswell which just confused everything.

Because Super Saiyan God just outright vanished from the manga as well for near 100 episodes unlike the manga which was also weird.

[Koitsukai]

After reading that proposal about Jiren, I think it makes sense that he wasn't fully fit by the time he whipped out his real power, he did take considerable damage before (UI was said to strike at key points to provoke the most damage), Moro73, said to be the toughest(even assuming he isn't the strongest but the one with the most endurance and seemed to be made of steel like 17 said) was only able to withstand like 4 of those pinpointed blows before crying for help. It's logical to assume Jiren's power was also reduced.

The implication being that its full scope was never at play and that a well-rested, fresh, outta-the-shower Jiren's full power could actually be a challenge for post-ToP UI Goku.
The franchise seems to be going for Jiren(and Vermouth for that matter) still being relevant, so assuming he didn't perform at his best(due to the damage taken) is a good way to do so without fucking everything up, and also correcting the interpretation that by now Vermouth and Granola are as far apart as Gurdo and Nailccolo, after all Freeza is not just closing in on Beerus but the GoDs as a whole.

Since Jiren's real FP was never seen, it's unclear if it was already surpassed, and we can't really tell just how much it was reduced due to the damage taken, but it sure is a clever way (and better than to assume ToP UI Goku>>latter UI iterations) to un-fodder U11's power level.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think people are getting mixed up between the movie and the manga. Jiren is still stronger in the movie, in the manga Vegeta just says they lost in the past. I think the way I had it before makes the most sense.

Hakai powered Beerus > Freeza > Goku > Jiren > "Base" Beerus.

Beerus pretty much taught Vegeta UE. UI Goku being weakened sorta makes sense, but the evidence is pretty weak. Jiren being weakened is totally made up.

#17 only scraps with SS2 and 3

Goku says 17 is almost as strong as himself. Nowhere to run here, Toriyama really wanted 17 to be SSJB level.

[Hugo Boss]

The only outlier is the zen exhibition match where shin is hurt more than son by rumoshi but I personally consider that more a gag at shins expense than a serious powerscaling statement.

Could be it affects people who only have god ki more and goku was spared because he was in base, maybe his hearings better, who knows. Otherwise I totally agree with you but yeah people always bring that up.

I think the scene basically reiterates that Kaioshins don’t have bodies suited to resist physical stress. Goku and the gods have honed their bodies to an extent that they can withstand shockwaves meant to mess with senses.

In that respect, even in Boo arc, Gohan and Goku have showed superior physical strength to Kibito and Shin, despite the obvious difference in spiritual power.

[ankokudaishogun]

The franchise seems to be going for Jiren(and Vermouth for that matter) still being relevant, so assuming he didn't perform at his best(due to the damage taken) is a good way to do so without fucking everything up

nah, if anything they'll just play it as Jiren having trained after ToP and got stronger.
Works much better than "AKSCHUALLY Jiren wasn't truly at full power", and I say this as a Anime Jiren fan.

For Vermoud, they'll likely play it as "Being a GoD is about Destruction, not just Battle Power" ort something like that

[QuakingStar]

At least with Trunks its kind of explained. The ritual to draw out ones power, dancing for 24hrs turned out to be a thing that was done for all Supreme Kai apprentices so Trunks had it done too. So Trunks had his potential drawn out and then went SS2 on top of it at least that's how it seemed to me. But yeah power creep has always been a problem in DB and this is all just showing it further. There was zero reason why Cabba was as strong as he was outside of the plot needing power creep to make him as such I guess.

You know, I might be wrong because I don't recall exactly how things played out, but I do remember Shin calling Trunks into action right before the Z sword was about to break in half(thus not releasing the dude that unlocks potential) as a tragic cliffhanger that screams "oh now see how close Trunks was to actually becoming strong enough for both of them to survive".

The dance for 24hrs nonsense is literally revealed as how one is made to become a Supreme Kai apprentice and it apparently also bestows powers AS LONG as you are a Supreme Kai apprentice. Seems it was retconned into being that.

[Miracles]

Any thoughts...?

Goku needs a new dimension of power [Super Saiyan god] in BoG.
Goku gets another new dimension of power on top of that [Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan] in RoF.
Goku and Vegeta add three years of training on top of that for the U6 tournament. Tied Hit who couldn't show all his strength.
Future Trunks arc: A new world is shown; Full power Super Saiyan Blue!
Tournament of Power: A foe who surpassed a god of destruction!
Broly arc: An enemy so strong; was estimated to be comparable to an even stronger god of destruction, in Beerus.
Galactic patrol arc: Despite never training in his life; There was no one as "tough" as Moro. Who's body's limit was angel power!
Granolah survivor arc: We face the strongest being in the universe!

Dragonball never stops adding floors to it's building.

viewtopic.php?p=1718954&hilit=trained#p1718973

[Hugo Boss]

It just occurred to me that maybe it won’t take long to Oracle Fish’s prophecy being fulfilled, if Goku and Vegeta somehow surpass Black Freeza in the new arc. That seems to be the only layer that stops them from matching Beerus, unless he has another secret technique.

[The Monkey King]

Well considering Black Freeza is essentially a glorified fan fiction transformation it's no real surprise he's weaker than Beerus.

At any rate as far as Toriyama is concerned Broly > Beerus >= SSJB Goku and Vegeta fighting as a team.

Spoiler:

But as the manga version of DBS SH essentially adopted Toriyama's power scale the manga has broken itself in half.


While not strictly strength related there is no good reason for DBS manga Goku the "Ultra Instinct Specialist" to be confused as to how staying relaxed during a fight would be benefit to one's fighting style.


The DBS Manga didn't really fix much about the garbage writing from DBS SH. Goku has been retconned to absolute idiot who isn't even on the right track to attain "Ultra Instinct" just like Toriyama's Goku.


Cope as much as you want but there's no reason for Beerus to have such a reaction to Broly's presence on his planet if he can "one shot him" lmao.

When Beerus shits himself because of Zeno's presence everyone agrees it's because Zeno is more powerful than him. With Broly it's the same thing.

Also in Super Hero the reason he was brought to Beerus' planet was because Freeza still wanted to recruit him, but in the manga continuity this doesn't make sense since he has his Black Freeza transformation.

Dragon Ball Super's power scaling is so outright nonsensical and terrible that now we're having users peddle their blatant head canon as fact in order to make sense of this trash writing:

At least with Trunks its kind of explained. The ritual to draw out ones power, dancing for 24hrs turned out to be a thing that was done for all Supreme Kai apprentices so Trunks had it done too.

What are you talking about? Drawing out one's potential is the ability of the Old Kai who never released Trunks' potential due to never being released from the Z-Sword.

Future Trunks became that strong because he was Black's punching bag for a year. His Saiyan adaptation kicked in. It's not that deep.

You mean the Zenkai boosts the saiyans stopped having after the Namek saga?
Where was this "Saiyan adaptation" for Future Gohan after getting his ass kicked by the androids for 10+ years?

17 trained for over a decade. There's nothing wrong with his power up. He didn't show up against Boo because he can't sense Ki. It should be obvious.

So #17 didn't notice when the entire human race was genocided instantly by Super Buu?

[TobyS]

I think people are getting mixed up between the movie and the manga. Jiren is still stronger in the movie, in the manga Vegeta just says they lost in the past. I think the way I had it before makes the most sense.

Hakai powered Beerus > Freeza > Goku > Jiren > "Base" Beerus.

Beerus pretty much taught Vegeta UE. UI Goku being weakened sorta makes sense, but the evidence is pretty weak. Jiren being weakened is totally made up.

#17 only scraps with SS2 and 3

Goku says 17 is almost as strong as himself. Nowhere to run here, Toriyama really wanted 17 to be SSJB level.

Yeah but he's clearly not talking about UI or even Blue E. And there's a gap between Goku and Vegeta as well so "us" clearly means like "up there in strength which like is of course between SS3 and Blue, which we already knew.

[Koitsukai]

The dance for 24hrs nonsense is literally revealed as how one is made to become a Supreme Kai apprentice and it apparently also bestows powers AS LONG as you are a Supreme Kai apprentice. Seems it was retconned into being that.

Then why that ritual didn't even unlock SS2 for Trunks? he accessed that power mid-fight as a last-resort power up. He could never had stacked SS2 on top of Ultimate -which isn't even a thing- because by the time he meets Goku, Cell Games SS2 Gohan is used to celebrate his power.
If that ritual was the potential one, he would've unlocked a power even beyond a hypothetical SS3 and eaten Dabura alive, keeping Shin and Beerus alive.

The ritual Shin did only provides a healing ability, as we were told and shown.
It's the old Kaioshin the one that can bring out one's potential, as implied in the cliffhanger prior to fighting Dabura, and he was never released. Most likely it's the witch part of the fusion that unlocks the potential doing the silly ritual.