One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
I once again gonna put on Tokyo Mew Mew New anime example to how to do remake right, you can still have main plot from manga, but retell it properly and also give other characters more chances to shine I really wouldn't mind Z-Warriors at least be able to beat Demon King Piccolo henchmen or kill Nappa, and not have Anime!Chi Chi and other girls be distrusting, naggy or violent, even if it's just for "comedy" sake.
As for gay people, it was sadly product of it's time, in 90's Sailor Moon we had Zoisite, whose main trait was backstabbing and whiny coward. And in real life we had Final Fight "According to the book All About Capcom Head to Head Fighting Games and Final Fight director Akira Nishitani, the characters were originally planned to be cisgender women, but were changed to "newhalfs" (a Japanese slang term for trans women) after the game's release, due to the suggestion that "hitting women was considered rude" in America and the concern that feminist groups would sue."
As for gay people, it was sadly product of it's time, in 90's Sailor Moon we had Zoisite, whose main trait was backstabbing and whiny coward. And in real life we had Final Fight "According to the book All About Capcom Head to Head Fighting Games and Final Fight director Akira Nishitani, the characters were originally planned to be cisgender women, but were changed to "newhalfs" (a Japanese slang term for trans women) after the game's release, due to the suggestion that "hitting women was considered rude" in America and the concern that feminist groups would sue."
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
-Dragon Ball is my best show, but it's against all of my values, I find it offensive up to disgust, and I want for it to be totally rewrote, so my beloved characters will get more focus (maybe some romance) and cut out the rest. It need a shift on focus, from plot profluence to deeper subtle meanings, so I can empathize with someone more. Ah, and the show is terrible with women, they have to change this entirely. But is my best show, I swear.-
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
Jesus fucking Christ, hitting trans women is still hitting women! Hell, it's even worse.coola wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:09 am And in real life we had Final Fight "According to the book All About Capcom Head to Head Fighting Games and Final Fight director Akira Nishitani, the characters were originally planned to be cisgender women, but were changed to "newhalfs" (a Japanese slang term for trans women) after the game's release, due to the suggestion that "hitting women was considered rude" in America and the concern that feminist groups would sue."
"Look at how progressive we're being by dehumanizing trans women (who we swear, we don’t secretly want to fuck)!"
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
While Sailor Moon certainly had its fair share of questionable portrayal of gay characters (I believe it even had its own gay man is a pedophile episode in SuperS) it was honestly leagues above Dragon Ball in at least the gay characters weren't just jokes.
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
I’m late to the discussion, but I will echo the sentiment that doing a remake of a series that’s currently still ongoing makes no sense. The One Piece manga isn’t even over yet. There’s no need for this.
As for Dragon Ball, I wouldn’t be opposed to an updated remake, but I don’t know if it would be worth it from a financial standpoint. Unfortunately, a lot of people like Dragon Ball for the flashy transformations, over the top action and characters like Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks, which the first half of the series is lacking in.
As for Dragon Ball, I wouldn’t be opposed to an updated remake, but I don’t know if it would be worth it from a financial standpoint. Unfortunately, a lot of people like Dragon Ball for the flashy transformations, over the top action and characters like Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks, which the first half of the series is lacking in.
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
General Blue wasn't a joke in Dragon Ball, he was actually strong and almost killed everyone in Master Roshi island.MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:37 pmWhile Sailor Moon certainly had its fair share of questionable portrayal of gay characters (I believe it even had its own gay man is a pedophile episode in SuperS) it was honestly leagues above Dragon Ball in at least the gay characters weren't just jokes.
The only reason they survived was thanks to Launch, who came back.
Now in EOZ the new character, yes he was a total joke.
Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
His homosexuality was the joke. Him being terrified of Bulma hitting on him (because she's a girl and not because she's a minor) is supposed to be hilarious. Him being terrified of a mouse because sissy gay man is supposed to be hilarious. His making a pass at a child in the anime because gay is interchangeable with pedo is supposed to be hilarious.super michael wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 1:53 pmGeneral Blue wasn't a joke in Dragon BallMasenkoHA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:37 pmWhile Sailor Moon certainly had its fair share of questionable portrayal of gay characters (I believe it even had its own gay man is a pedophile episode in SuperS) it was honestly leagues above Dragon Ball in at least the gay characters weren't just jokes.
Please at least try to learn to read between the lines
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
General Blue wasn't afraid of Bulma, he found her disgusting, as in ugly. When Bulma tried to pretend to be a man, that made it worse.MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 1:58 pmHis homosexuality was the joke. Him being terrified of Bulma hitting on him (because she's a girl and not because she's a minor) is supposed to be hilarious. Him being terrified of a mouse because sissy gay man is supposed to be hilarious. His making a pass at a child in the anime because gay is interchangeable with pedo is supposed to be hilarious.super michael wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 1:53 pmGeneral Blue wasn't a joke in Dragon BallMasenkoHA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:37 pm
While Sailor Moon certainly had its fair share of questionable portrayal of gay characters (I believe it even had its own gay man is a pedophile episode in SuperS) it was honestly leagues above Dragon Ball in at least the gay characters weren't just jokes.
Please at least try to learn to read between the lines
The one afraid of girls was Yamcha.
There is nothing wrong with being afraid of mouse.
The pedo part that wasn't needed in the anime, not sure what they were thinking. The localized version censored it, by making the kid look like his long lost brother.
Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
Blue reactions are specifically targeted to be made fun of for not being traditionally masculine. The reaction to Blooma and the reaction to the mouse are absolutely meant to make the audience laugh at a gay character, because being queer is something that the comic is saying is bad and not normal.super michael wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 3:34 pmGeneral Blue wasn't afraid of Bulma, he found her disgusting, as in ugly. When Bulma tried to pretend to be a man, that made it worse.MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 1:58 pmHis homosexuality was the joke. Him being terrified of Bulma hitting on him (because she's a girl and not because she's a minor) is supposed to be hilarious. Him being terrified of a mouse because sissy gay man is supposed to be hilarious. His making a pass at a child in the anime because gay is interchangeable with pedo is supposed to be hilarious.
Please at least try to learn to read between the lines
The one afraid of girls was Yamcha.
There is nothing wrong with being afraid of mouse.
The pedo part that wasn't needed in the anime, not sure what they were thinking. The localized version censored it, by making the kid look like his long lost brother.
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
Since when is there a trope where specifically gay men are supposed to be scared of mice? Never heard of that one.
Are there any actual examples of this?
Are there any actual examples of this?
Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
I swear some of y'all are obtuse on purpose.
The stereotype is women are afraid of mice. The joke is "lol this sissy gay man is afraid of a mouse like he's some kind of woman"
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
I have seen many TV series, anime, cartoons, etc, that boys are scared of mouse. Just incase the boy is attracted to girls.
I really don't think they had bad intentions in having General Blue being scared of a mouse, just like Yamcha was scared of girls.
I really don't think they had bad intentions in having General Blue being scared of a mouse, just like Yamcha was scared of girls.
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
You know... Dragon Ball could, theoretically, have good writing, good representation AND good spectacular fights if either Toei, Toyotaro or Toriyama ever gave a damn about appealing to anyone else but little boys, or the lowest common denominator of adults.ChronoTwigger wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:16 am -Dragon Ball is my best show, but it's against all of my values, I find it offensive up to disgust, and I want for it to be totally rewrote, so my beloved characters will get more focus (maybe some romance) and cut out the rest. It need a shift on focus, from plot profluence to deeper subtle meanings, so I can empathize with someone more. Ah, and the show is terrible with women, they have to change this entirely. But is my best show, I swear.-
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If I criticize the series, it's because I respect it enough to want to see it be better than it already is.
Huh... Pushing past your limits... That's almost like... The entire message of DB or something...
Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
dragon ball products were in fact still perpetuating homophobic stereotypes, 'intentions' be damned.super michael wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:10 pm I have seen many TV series, anime, cartoons, etc, that boys are scared of mouse. Just incase the boy is attracted to girls.
I really don't think they had bad intentions in having General Blue being scared of a mouse, just like Yamcha was scared of girls.
Michael.
Sir.
Putting aside that knowing these things is my fucking job, I litterally have decades of lived experience as a queer woman. I know homophobia when I see it. General Blue schreeching at the idea of being touched by a woman, scared of a mouse, or any number of his mannerisms screams "I'm going to make my one canonically queer character look like a joke because that's what queer people are."
Think about the entire fucking comic. How Blue—and later Otokosuki—is written is a clear pattern of depicting queer men as something to mock. Similarly, the lack of queer women in the original comic is further a sign of homophobia because cishet men will often think that women can't be women-loving-women. That's why the only depictions of queerness are from two stereotypical men, and they're depicted in such a way so as to make the audience creeped out and also make them mock them for not being 'the right kind of man'.
General Blue and Otokosuki are absolutely things that can be vastly improved upon in a future Dragon Ball project and should be.
Aww, I had this guy on my ignore list so I didn't see that blatant mocking me by name lolAliTheZombie13 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:11 pmYou know... Dragon Ball could, theoretically, have good writing, good representation AND good spectacular fights if either Toei, Toyotaro or Toriyama ever gave a damn about appealing to anyone else but little boys, or the lowest common denominator of adults.ChronoTwigger wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:16 am -Dragon Ball is my best show, but it's against all of my values, I find it offensive up to disgust, and I want for it to be totally rewrote, so my beloved characters will get more focus (maybe some romance) and cut out the rest. It need a shift on focus, from plot profluence to deeper subtle meanings, so I can empathize with someone more. Ah, and the show is terrible with women, they have to change this entirely. But is my best show, I swear.-
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If I criticize the series, it's because I respect it enough to want to see it be better than it already is.
Huh... Pushing past your limits... That's almost like... The entire message of DB or something...
Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for your reply to his post.
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
@Julie
You know I've always wondered, and this is the perfect thread for it. Considering you ARE a queer person, what would you be interested in seeing in a DB remake anyway? I'm genuinely curious (and might crip some ideas for the Yabanverse whenever I get around to that). All apologies if you laid it out bare at any point, I don't particularly use this forum much even at my most active so if I missed it, that's my bad. But what would your dream DB remake look like?
And by spiritual successor, I don't mean Naruto or One Piece or the proverbial "generic battle shōnen with a happy-go-lucky never-gives-up protagonist." I mean "colorful cast of martial artists in a laid-back sci-fi-ish Jianghu setting getting into irreverent martial artist situations for martial artist reasons, clearly mostly inspired by 70s and 80s Hong Kong kung fu movies as a direct influence without trying to subvert it by setting it among pirates/ninjas/high schoolers/WW2/medieval Europe/feudal Japan/etc."
You know I've always wondered, and this is the perfect thread for it. Considering you ARE a queer person, what would you be interested in seeing in a DB remake anyway? I'm genuinely curious (and might crip some ideas for the Yabanverse whenever I get around to that). All apologies if you laid it out bare at any point, I don't particularly use this forum much even at my most active so if I missed it, that's my bad. But what would your dream DB remake look like?
Well, to play devil's advocate, Dragon Ball has never been anything other than shōnen by design. We Westerners have a very, and increasingly, homogenized entertainment culture, at least among what would traditionally be considered "pulp". The Japanese still are rigidly segregated along age and gender lines in terms of how their media/manga is sold, and if anything, it seems to only have gotten more rigid in recent years. So if nothing else, I can see the viewpoint why Dragon Ball shifting demographics isn't a very likely thing to happen. It's far more likely that there's a spinoff series or true spiritual successor that plays that role.AliTheZombie13 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:11 pm if either Toei, Toyotaro or Toriyama ever gave a damn about appealing to anyone else but little boys
And by spiritual successor, I don't mean Naruto or One Piece or the proverbial "generic battle shōnen with a happy-go-lucky never-gives-up protagonist." I mean "colorful cast of martial artists in a laid-back sci-fi-ish Jianghu setting getting into irreverent martial artist situations for martial artist reasons, clearly mostly inspired by 70s and 80s Hong Kong kung fu movies as a direct influence without trying to subvert it by setting it among pirates/ninjas/high schoolers/WW2/medieval Europe/feudal Japan/etc."
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
I was wondering why you didnt reply to him. I see why now.JulieYBM wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:28 pmdragon ball products were in fact still perpetuating homophobic stereotypes, 'intentions' be damned.super michael wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:10 pm I have seen many TV series, anime, cartoons, etc, that boys are scared of mouse. Just incase the boy is attracted to girls.
I really don't think they had bad intentions in having General Blue being scared of a mouse, just like Yamcha was scared of girls.
Michael.
Sir.
Putting aside that knowing these things is my fucking job, I litterally have decades of lived experience as a queer woman. I know homophobia when I see it. General Blue schreeching at the idea of being touched by a woman, scared of a mouse, or any number of his mannerisms screams "I'm going to make my one canonically queer character look like a joke because that's what queer people are."
Think about the entire fucking comic. How Blue—and later Otokosuki—is written is a clear pattern of depicting queer men as something to mock. Similarly, the lack of queer women in the original comic is further a sign of homophobia because cishet men will often think that women can't be women-loving-women. That's why the only depictions of queerness are from two stereotypical men, and they're depicted in such a way so as to make the audience creeped out and also make them mock them for not being 'the right kind of man'.
General Blue and Otokosuki are absolutely things that can be vastly improved upon in a future Dragon Ball project and should be.
Aww, I had this guy on my ignore list so I didn't see that blatant mocking me by name lolAliTheZombie13 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:11 pmYou know... Dragon Ball could, theoretically, have good writing, good representation AND good spectacular fights if either Toei, Toyotaro or Toriyama ever gave a damn about appealing to anyone else but little boys, or the lowest common denominator of adults.ChronoTwigger wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:16 am -Dragon Ball is my best show, but it's against all of my values, I find it offensive up to disgust, and I want for it to be totally rewrote, so my beloved characters will get more focus (maybe some romance) and cut out the rest. It need a shift on focus, from plot profluence to deeper subtle meanings, so I can empathize with someone more. Ah, and the show is terrible with women, they have to change this entirely. But is my best show, I swear.-
JulieYBM and some others, regular Kanzenshuu contributors.
If I criticize the series, it's because I respect it enough to want to see it be better than it already is.
Huh... Pushing past your limits... That's almost like... The entire message of DB or something...
Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for your reply to his post.
Spoiler:
Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
Oh, sure! My short answer is that I would like to not distract from the cool ass-kickings with weird writing of women and queer people. It's weird, it's offensive, and it does nothing to actually add to the story. That's just the base-level "Please don't make this weird to read/watch/play/etc for a lot of your audience." Everything in storytelling is a tool, and it's important for a creator (writer, director, actor, musician, animator, you name it) to know how to use your tools and understand how the people who participate in that art (creation and consumption, for lack of a better umbrella term) are affected by it.Yuli Ban wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:55 pm @Julie
You know I've always wondered, and this is the perfect thread for it. Considering you ARE a queer person, what would you be interested in seeing in a DB remake anyway? I'm genuinely curious (and might crip some ideas for the Yabanverse whenever I get around to that). All apologies if you laid it out bare at any point, I don't particularly use this forum much even at my most active so if I missed it, that's my bad. But what would your dream DB remake look like?
I'll use Dragon Ball Super as an example, because I think it's handling of Kale and Caulifla—while not perfect—is a marketed improvement and something that I hope future people with the authority to make Dragon Ball works (without getting sued into oblivion) should build upon. Kale and Caulifla's relationship is what's called 'subtext' (for anyone reading this that doesn't know). A lot of older media from decades passed used 'subtext' as a manner for dicussing and educating on issues of how the world currently is and how a better tomorrow can be. Personally, as both a writer myself and someone who has to actually read/view art that discusses the minority groups that I am a part of (woman, bisexual, trans, nuerodivergent, disabled, etc.), I can't stand subtext. After decades of eating the shit I'm just done with the whole "keep your head down and maybe they'll throw you a bone or two." A lot of Japanese comics/anime/light novels (sadly aimed mostly at adults) will just straight up depict canonically (textually) queer characters positively and without subtext, though. I recently finished the I'm in Love With the Villainess cartoon series, which used poor representation of queer characters as commentary for how these characters are typically portrayed in predatory manners as a springboard to also discuss the real issues that queer people face. I've read that the light novels go even deeper into this sort of thing, and while I'm not even expecting Dragon Ball to get too deep into the nitty-gritty of discrimination, I think doing so would provide better fuel for the series' main attraction: sweeping, ridiculous rivalries and cool fights.
So, yeah, Kale and Caulifla: Kale's insecure, but in love with her 'boss', Caulifla. Kale's arc is learning to communicate her feelings to Caulifla and be recognized, which we eventually see during the Tournament of Power when Caulifla turns to Kale and encourages her to control her power (which could easily be read as subtext for her queer love). Kale does so and achieves a new Super Saiyan form. About ten episodes later, Kale and Caulifla's relationship has another spike where they work together against Gokuu, and it eventually culminates in them combining with the Potara. One can easily read the formation of Kefla as a metaphor for sex or even marriage. Personally, even if it still would have been a soft admission, I wish that the two would have kissed in the last episode. It wouldn't have been surprising at all (just like the ending of The Legend of Korra isn't a surprise at all if you follow the last two seasons and know what to look for in a Sapphic relationship).
And the thing is, Toei Animation isn't exactly a stranger to even more strongly depicted queer romance. PreCure has numerous queer-coding, both in how Nagisa and Honoka are constantly together, have dual wedding dress figures created for them, and have their entire series built around their bonds. Then there's Kirakira Pretty Cure a la Mode, which has Yukari (femme/princess-coded) and Akira (butch/boyish/prince-coded). They are the Kirakira team's only high schoolers, they're consistently paired together, and oh my fucking god there is no heterosexual explanation for these bitches.
Hell, in Hugtto PreCure there's both Emiru and her android 'friend' Ruru, Henri and Masato. Masato is Emiru's homophobe-coded older brother who comes to accept his sister's desire to 'play the guitar' (something that she does alongside Ruru), then he learns to accept Henri and they become 'friends' (falls in love) with the trans-coded femme Henri. Henri is technically treated as a boy (and one of the franchises first two male PreCure with Masato), but is so heavily gender non-conforming that one can interpret his character as being a soft-inclusion of a trans femme. Actually, Masato x Henri isn't even subtext! In the final episode Henri literally blows Masato a kiss during one of his skating performances and Masato catches it!
Allllllllllllllllllllllll this is to say, I think Dragon Ball can get away with just...treating queerness as normal. It can get away with asking viewers to dedicate their time to a subtextually queer relationship between two girls, both trying to grow stronger in their own ways, so it can definitely do the same with a textually queer relationship between two women—or two men! Or hell, two people that are neither man nor woman! The sky's the limit, which bigots never quite seem to understand (or they do, and they're afraid of that).
I also don't think it's hard for anyone to simply say "Wow, that writing of women and queer people is bad and weird, I hope they don't do that again!" It takes zero effort to approach art that way, and yet so many people want to defend and sactify this sort of writing in both Dragon Ball and other works of art. I think that that's really exhausting, as someone who participates in fandom spaces and is a part of the minority groups that have that sort of poor representation in media.
Jesus Christ, I swear that I didn't mean to write such a large post. My bad lulz
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
I might be wrong, but Blue was more disgusted than afraid, he can't stand "unclean" things, remember how he feed one of his men to crocodiles, just because he saw him picking his nose...
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
Being obsessed with neatness and prettiness is another one of those traits to other the character. Cishet men are never portrayed in these types of shows as being obsessed with neatness—in fact they are often portrayed as the opposite.
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Re: One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...
Thanks for the rundown! I do agree in the large details, yes. Certainly will consider everything later tonight as well.
And trust me, I prefer longer answers over short ones.
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