One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...

[Soppa Saia People]

I honestly really don't think General Blue is that bad in the manga, I think he's a really fun and memorable character and a highlight of the RRA arc, he's probably the best villain in it next to Tao Pai Pai and Murasaki, and well yeah he definitely has stereotypes too him, I really don't think it comes across in a trashy or like really unpalatable way. Obviously that's just one Queer persons opinion, I don't speak for anyone besides myself, but I wouldn't really say he's notably bad.

As for gay people, it was sadly product of it's time, in 90's Sailor Moon we had Zoisite, whose main trait was backstabbing and whiny coward.

While Sailor Moon certainly had its fair share of questionable portrayal of gay characters (I believe it even had its own gay man is a pedophile episode in SuperS) it was honestly leagues above Dragon Ball in at least the gay characters weren't just jokes.

Shoujo manga as a whole has a very long history of queer characters, or at least have a very progressive view on sexuality and gender. So I really hate the whole product of it's time thing, when just in that demographic alone prior to 1984, you had stuff like Onii Sama E, Rose of Versailles, and Kaze to Ki no Uta, and a fair bit more, all of which had either same sex relationships, or a lot of queer themes and elements on gender and relationships. Hell, even with stuff for boys, Dirty Pair of all things has a very progressive episode involving a trans character.

[Shaddy]

I also don't think it's hard for anyone to simply say "Wow, that writing of women and queer people is bad and weird, I hope they don't do that again!" It takes zero effort to approach art that way, and yet so many people want to defend and sactify this sort of writing in both Dragon Ball and other works of art. I think that that's really exhausting, as someone who participates in fandom spaces and is a part of the minority groups that have that sort of poor representation in media.

This is really the biggest thing, right? We approach so many other things about everything we like with this attitude, it's only when it's about social groups or minorities that criticism or suggestions in how a series handles one element or another gets met with "WOW, YOU MUST JUST HATE THE SERIES HUH". I'm probably among that nebulous group of "Dragon Ball is against your values!!!1!" posters that dude was getting bootyblasted about earlier, but I'm not hearing about how I'm too ideologically-motivated for not liking the Imperfect->Perfect Cell section of the Android arc. There's nothing about that that "goes against my values", it's just a fuckin' boring section of the story. That's not a bigger, more objective criticism than "maybe Toei arbitrarily making Blue a pedophile was a bad decision", but only the second one gets you called an oversensitive snowflake.

And I mean...people can consume media that doesn't align with their values, too. I'm not saying Dragon Ball is one of those, I'm not sure if it's really specific enough to identify many "values" from, but even if it has things we think are problematic...well, we're fuckin' here, ain't we? Clearly we still enjoy the series and have consumed many many hours of it, so whatever values it does or doesn't have aren't the biggest wrench in the gears. It makes me wonder if people who say things like that only watch or like the series because they think they're sticking it to the libs for having something offensive in it here or there.

[JulieYBM]

I also don't think it's hard for anyone to simply say "Wow, that writing of women and queer people is bad and weird, I hope they don't do that again!" It takes zero effort to approach art that way, and yet so many people want to defend and sactify this sort of writing in both Dragon Ball and other works of art. I think that that's really exhausting, as someone who participates in fandom spaces and is a part of the minority groups that have that sort of poor representation in media.

This is really the biggest thing, right? We approach so many other things about everything we like with this attitude, it's only when it's about social groups or minorities that criticism or suggestions in how a series handles one element or another gets met with "WOW, YOU MUST JUST HATE THE SERIES HUH". I'm probably among that nebulous group of "Dragon Ball is against your values!!!1!" posters that dude was getting bootyblasted about earlier, but I'm not hearing about how I'm too ideologically-motivated for not liking the Imperfect->Perfect Cell section of the Android arc. There's nothing about that that "goes against my values", it's just a fuckin' boring section of the story. That's not a bigger, more objective criticism than "maybe Toei arbitrarily making Blue a pedophile was a bad decision", but only the second one gets you called an oversensitive snowflake.

And I mean...people can consume media that doesn't align with their values, too. I'm not saying Dragon Ball is one of those, I'm not sure if it's really specific enough to identify many "values" from, but even if it has things we think are problematic...well, we're fuckin' here, ain't we? Clearly we still enjoy the series and have consumed many many hours of it, so whatever values it does or doesn't have aren't the biggest wrench in the gears. It makes me wonder if people who say things like that only watch or like the series because they think they're sticking it to the libs for having something offensive in it here or there.

It definitely reeks of wanting to not consider the ramifications of the series as art. I think it speaks to how too many vocal voices view art analysis as stopping at silliness like world-builing or feat shit, and don't consider things like reception past barebones 'Is it popular and makes a lot of money?"

Like, it's exhausting to be accused of the weird shit that men here accuse me of because I am literally on record salivating over not just characters (Movie #20 Broli is my husband), but singing the praises for the real life people who do work on the series. Who the fuck else is posting about Tomioka Atsuhiro and his battle strategies, or hoping that he'd be given even more freedom to go wild with them?

Folks will go through all this effort of defending the most embarrassing and insulting shit as opposed to just saying "Yikes, I sure hope that they stop making female characters get uncritically sexually assaulted for laughs!" And then going off and doing whatevs.

[Majin Buu]

I'm probably among that nebulous group of "Dragon Ball is against your values!!!1!" posters that dude was getting bootyblasted about earlier, but I'm not hearing about how I'm too ideologically-motivated for not liking the Imperfect->Perfect Cell section of the Android arc. There's nothing about that that "goes against my values", it's just a fuckin' boring section of the story. That's not a bigger, more objective criticism than "maybe Toei arbitrarily making Blue a pedophile was a bad decision", but only the second one gets you called an oversensitive snowflake.

It makes me wonder if people who say things like that only watch or like the series because they think they're sticking it to the libs for having something offensive in it here or there.

I think the operating mentality here is "[Insert scary-sounding "other" group here] is trying to take Dragon Ball away from me". It's the idea that this franchise "belongs" to them and so it shouldn't have to change to accommodate the sensibilities of those "other" people that are "just too sensitive to take a joke" since "I don't see anything wrong here".

It's the kind of reactionary mindset you see when people who don't want things to change are forced to acknowledge the existence of people who do want things to change.

[JulieYBM]

I'm probably among that nebulous group of "Dragon Ball is against your values!!!1!" posters that dude was getting bootyblasted about earlier, but I'm not hearing about how I'm too ideologically-motivated for not liking the Imperfect->Perfect Cell section of the Android arc. There's nothing about that that "goes against my values", it's just a fuckin' boring section of the story. That's not a bigger, more objective criticism than "maybe Toei arbitrarily making Blue a pedophile was a bad decision", but only the second one gets you called an oversensitive snowflake.

It makes me wonder if people who say things like that only watch or like the series because they think they're sticking it to the libs for having something offensive in it here or there.

I think the operating mentality here is "[Insert scary-sounding "other" group here] is trying to take Dragon Ball away from me". It's the idea that this franchise "belongs" to them and so it shouldn't have to change to accommodate the sensibilities of those "other" people that are "just too sensitive to take a joke".

It's the kind of reactionary mindset you see when people who don't want things to change are forced to acknowledge the existance of people who do want things to change.

While I think that you hit the nail on the head, I think that this just makes things even more silly (and not the fun kind of silly!), since people who make these critical analysis have been members of the fandom for 26 years (hi) and members of this forum for 18 years (hi). Now, obviously I don't believe in silly things like seniority, but I do think it's funny to turn back the dumb logic people will use against them.

[Majin Buu]

since people who make these critical analysis have been members of the fandom for 26 years (hi) and members of this forum for 18 years (hi).

Indeed.

I think people with these sentiments simply never came across any serious critiques of this stuff until recently, so they assume these critiques are new and coming from younger fans and their "woke bs" when in reality they likely just never ventured outside of their own social bubble to be exposed to those critiques and primarily hung around like-minded people instead.

[JulieYBM]

since people who make these critical analysis have been members of the fandom for 26 years (hi) and members of this forum for 18 years (hi).

Indeed.

I think people with these sentiments simply never came across any serious critiques of this stuff until recently, so they assume these critiques are new and coming from younger fans and their "woke bs" when in reality they likely just never ventured outside of their own social bubble to be exposed to those critiques and primarily hung around like-minded people instead.

Like, I'm loathed to tell people to what to do with their time, but it's also really annoying when there's so much vocal resistance to learning in a community. I think that this is a combination of a number of things, chiefly the fact that for a lot of fans in a fandom of the size of Dragon Ball, not many of them are fans of other things, and therefore don't actually go out and learn new ways of viewing and thinking about art. Fuck, that was a long sentence.

In other words, I think that there is this misnomer that you can't let outside influences factor into how you view a piece of art, which I think it just really bad for discussion (to say nothing of the individual). The idea that you have to meet Dragon Ball (the inanimate object!) where it's at, rather than ask that you—the human with life experiences—be met where you are is a poor way to approach the creation and consumption (umbrella term) of art. We don't just consume art for pure 'entertainment' issues—we consume it to make a human connection with the real people who make that art. When you're reading the 1984 Dragon Ball comic you're connecting with a real man who loved drawing, who loved film, and poured those things into his comic. You like film, right? You like appreciating illustrations and comic paneling, right? That's the human experience that you're sharing with this guy that you've never even met. Someimes the good interactions like that come with bad interactions, like...well, me having to sigh my way through shit like Blooma being the butt of sexual assault, sexual harassment and sexual humiliation jokes. This is where that desire to hope that this sort of thing stops comes into play.

...or lord, sitting through Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and wondering why Toriyama doesn't just make an official 18+ Dragon Ball project so we can get his ass-expansion kink in a decidedly more appropriate place for that sort of thing.

[Shaddy]

I think it speaks to how too many vocal voices view art analysis as stopping at silliness like world-builing or feat shit, and don't consider things like reception past barebones 'Is it popular and makes a lot of money?"

I think what's hilarious about this dichotomy in general is that A. Worldbuilding can really enhance a story if you actually USE the world you've built for something (Dragon Ball mostly doesn't), and B. this ask is simultaneously made in conjunction with, as you put it, "feat shit", powerscaling crud that actively asks for any world it applies to to shrink to fit a set of parameters for dudes to "objectively" compare character strengths in. Any world where that's a possibility is a boring one!

Folks will go through all this effort of defending the most embarrassing and insulting shit as opposed to just saying "Yikes, I sure hope that they stop making female characters get uncritically sexually assaulted for laughs!" And then going off and doing whatevs.

Hence what I said earlier, at a certain point...it seems like that's part of the appeal. Even if they're not literally horny for women being groped, there's a "this'll stick it to em" atmosphere that...I guess is almost worse in a way? I mean, the dick wants what the dick wants, but once you're essentially valorizing something because it's gross and misogynistic, it's over a very different line than having a kink and not probably finding the best material to satisfy it.

I think the operating mentality here is "[Insert scary-sounding "other" group here] is trying to take Dragon Ball away from me". It's the idea that this franchise "belongs" to them and so it shouldn't have to change to accommodate the sensibilities of those "other" people that are "just too sensitive to take a joke" since "I don't see anything wrong here".

It's the kind of reactionary mindset you see when people who don't want things to change are forced to acknowledge the existence of people who do want things to change.

Oh, without a doubt. I mean, I'm largely part of this demographic, and I was fourteen once! I remember how that felt, and a lot of these comfortable lies worked on me. The difference is A. I either didn't say it aloud much or scrubbed that shit from the net at the first chance, and B. I grew the fuck up. I'm honestly not sure there's any fandom I'm part of where more diverse and wider groups offering meaningful critique would feel like a personal attack on me.

I mean, my biggest fandom discourse problem right now is people my own age trying to tell me Shadow the hedgehog and Sonic Unleashed were good. I reiterate that I grew the fuck up

And yeah, like Julie said, this is only them feeling attacked from the outside because they've been sheltered from the people who were already there for years. Longer than me, certainly!

...or lord, sitting through Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and wondering why Toriyama doesn't just make an official 18+ Dragon Ball project so we can get his ass-expansion kink in a decidedly more appropriate place for that sort of thing.

I dunno if you're playing this up for a joke, but I think Super Hero is by far on the more acceptable end of things compared to...almost all other sexual stuff in the series. Bulma's doing it for Bulma! She's in control of the situation! That's why her being really hot on the spaceship trip to Namek is also good.

[JulieYBM]

I think it speaks to how too many vocal voices view art analysis as stopping at silliness like world-builing or feat shit, and don't consider things like reception past barebones 'Is it popular and makes a lot of money?"

I think what's hilarious about this dichotomy in general is that A. Worldbuilding can really enhance a story if you actually USE the world you've built for something (Dragon Ball mostly doesn't), and B. this ask is simultaneously made in conjunction with, as you put it, "feat shit", powerscaling crud that actively asks for any world it applies to to shrink to fit a set of parameters for dudes to "objectively" compare character strengths in. Any world where that's a possibility is a boring one!

Yeah, for me it's always going back to "how does the world push forward character" and I just don't really feel like a lot of discussion gets into that, and that's boring as heck to me. I don't particularly care about the Makaiou and Makaiou-shin, but you tell me that there's a Makaiou or Makaiou-shin that wants revenge on Shin and Kibito for a betrayal in the past that only strengthed a conflict between their two peoples and then I'm invested. That's some character shit to work through—that's an eventual showdow that I'm looking forward to watching or reading.

Folks will go through all this effort of defending the most embarrassing and insulting shit as opposed to just saying "Yikes, I sure hope that they stop making female characters get uncritically sexually assaulted for laughs!" And then going off and doing whatevs.

Hence what I said earlier, at a certain point...it seems like that's part of the appeal. Even if they're not literally horny for women being groped, there's a "this'll stick it to em" atmosphere that...I guess is almost worse in a way? I mean, the dick wants what the dick wants, but once you're essentially valorizing something because it's gross and misogynistic, it's over a very different line than having a kink and not probably finding the best material to satisfy it./quote]

Yeah, that's the thing—it doesn't even come across as a kink thing for the people defending its inclusion, either. The defense isn't a defense of, say, kink, but a defense...free speech? I don't know, it just comes across as a disgusting hatred and objectification of women.

I think the attitude that creates the treatment of women in Dragon Ball—and the attitude that defends that treatment in fandom spaces—are really damning and goes to show that we need more stringent moderation in fandom spaces to weed out that sort of thing. That's to say nothing of teaching better to our youth, too.

I do wonder how much of this perception I have is due to my fandom interaction mostly being through forums, which are a dying format. I specifically avoid venturing out into social media spaces where younger, and theoritically more progressive fans are. It makes me curious how much of the pushback I see on forums is non-existent in the grand scheme of things?

...or lord, sitting through Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and wondering why Toriyama doesn't just make an official 18+ Dragon Ball project so we can get his ass-expansion kink in a decidedly more appropriate place for that sort of thing.

I dunno if you're playing this up for a joke, but I think Super Hero is by far on the more acceptable end of things compared to...almost all other sexual stuff in the series. Bulma's doing it for Bulma! She's in control of the situation! That's why her being really hot on the spaceship trip to Namek is also good.[

So, I was kinda just making a joke, but I do find the whole thing makes me sink into my chair and turn into a puddle of embarrassment. When I first watched the scene I was like "why are you doing this?" I mean, putting aside that it's not even turning me on, this is a movie for kids I really don't want to be engaging in my transformation kink while watching this thing.

I do think it would be fun to have actually done this in a "no, for real, I hope adults get horny over this shit" setting. I just don't think that Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero was the setting for that. Gimme a setting where it's purely for adults and meant to be inclusive for any women into whatever kink and bam, it might just be a fun time.

With the spaceship trip to Namek I don't even clock that as sexy, just a woman in her underwear—which I really don't automatically think of as being sexy like a lot of people make it out to be. So, like...I mean, I see that shit every day. Hell, I'm seeing it right now! I don't think it was being played as such in the comic, but I could be wrong?

Gah, this is why I write my romance novels only for adults, so I can talk about breast augmentation and bimbofication and tell anyone who doesn't like it to fuck off.

[Hellspawn28]

...or lord, sitting through Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and wondering why Toriyama doesn't just make an official 18+ Dragon Ball project so we can get his ass-expansion kink in a decidedly more appropriate place for that sort of thing.

I can't imagine Toriyama or Shueisha wanting to do a 18+ DB title. Making a official DB hentai could ruin the brand.

[JulieYBM]

...or lord, sitting through Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and wondering why Toriyama doesn't just make an official 18+ Dragon Ball project so we can get his ass-expansion kink in a decidedly more appropriate place for that sort of thing.

I can't imagine Toriyama or Shueisha wanting to do a 18+ DB title. Making a official DB hentai could ruin the brand.

Considering the awful shit that they did in both Dragon Ball Super with Yurin, Pu-erh and everything else over the years, I doubt it.

[JulieYBM]

Ali mentioned this in the Daima thread, but it just occured to me that something I hope is removed from any potential remake is Gokuu's ability to teleport. I think that it's kind of random and could lead to more interesting story development if it was simply not included. Dragon Ball already did storytelling made without much forethought, so I think that storetelling that had more planning into it would be an interesting change of pace.

[Shaddy]

I do wonder how much of this perception I have is due to my fandom interaction mostly being through forums, which are a dying format. I specifically avoid venturing out into social media spaces where younger, and theoritically more progressive fans are. It makes me curious how much of the pushback I see on forums is non-existent in the grand scheme of things?

I think you're going to be disappointed. At least for the dedicated spaces I'm part of (including this one), they have way better self-control and nuanced discussion than reddit or twitter. The fact that they tend to have actual moderators helps, you won't get a lot of single-word replies or spamming of slurs or racist memes that way, but obviously a single mod can be more opinionated or biased than comprehensive site-wide policies enforced by employees. There's a reason I come here and stayed the hell away from most of DB twitter even before it became Elon's million-user klan meeting.

So, I was kinda just making a joke, but I do find the whole thing makes me sink into my chair and turn into a puddle of embarrassment. When I first watched the scene I was like "why are you doing this?" I mean, putting aside that it's not even turning me on, this is a movie for kids I really don't want to be engaging in my transformation kink while watching this thing.

I mean, I guess? I just think it's pretty tame overall. There is so much that is more offensive, more explicit or both in this series that I didn't even bat an eye. I'm not even sure "transformation kink" is the way to read it, it seems more like they just like asses. I admit to not having screenshotted to visually compare but I'm not even entirely certain how different she looks from one scene to the next.

With the spaceship trip to Namek I don't even clock that as sexy, just a woman in her underwear—which I really don't automatically think of as being sexy like a lot of people make it out to be. So, like...I mean, I see that shit every day. Hell, I'm seeing it right now! I don't think it was being played as such in the comic, but I could be wrong?

I'll cop to the fact that some of the jokes in Abridged made me think way more about it than I probably would've otherwise. But I dunno, the casual atmosphere works for me. Again, Bulma in any state of undress not being the subject of a joke (grotesque treatment or otherwise) is a break with tradition (although I do think Krillin comments on her being a slob).

...or lord, sitting through Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and wondering why Toriyama doesn't just make an official 18+ Dragon Ball project so we can get his ass-expansion kink in a decidedly more appropriate place for that sort of thing.

I can't imagine Toriyama or Shueisha wanting to do a 18+ DB title. Making a official DB hentai could ruin the brand.

Considering the awful shit that they did in both Dragon Ball Super with Yurin, Pu-erh and everything else over the years, I doubt it.

I mean. Yes. It is hypocritical that showing sex itself is taboo in a world where women can be repeatedly sexually assaulted for comedy. But if you can make the distinction between those things, I don't think it's hard at all to determine why the TV networks and publishers that own this series would distinguish between their own misogynistic writing decisions, and pornography. I'm not saying they're right, just that from their own flawed perspective, it's not exactly a mystery why they wouldn't commit to something like that. It's an adolescent property, and just because there's a lot of shit that shouldn't be there doesn't set precedent for turning it into hentai.

We've been back on reviewing old Sonic comics for my youtube channel recently, and there is also extremely misogynistic and sometimes sexualized content in some of those (albeit nowhere near most weird anime shit), but that wouldn't make a headline like "SEGA officially licensing Sonic the hedgehog porn" any less of a nightmare for the series.

[MasenkoHA]

I honestly really don't think General Blue is that bad in the manga, I think he's a really fun and memorable character and a highlight of the RRA arc, he's probably the best villain in it next to Tao Pai Pai and Murasaki, and well yeah he definitely has stereotypes too him, I really don't think it comes across in a trashy or like really unpalatable way. Obviously that's just one Queer persons opinion, I don't speak for anyone besides myself, but I wouldn't really say he's notably bad.

You're right. He's not that bad in the manga, it really is just that ONE scene in the anime. Still, for the sake of being thorough when discussing the problematic material in Dragon Ball that could be fixed by a remake, I think it's worth pointing out Blue's portrayal in the manga isn't great either. I would like to see General Blue be more like Whis, where his effeminacy is incidental to his character rather than act as the punchline.

Shoujo manga as a whole has a very long history of queer characters, or at least have a very progressive view on sexuality and gender. So I really hate the whole product of it's time thing, when just in that demographic alone prior to 1984, you had stuff like Onii Sama E, Rose of Versailles, and Kaze to Ki no Uta, and a fair bit more, all of which had either same sex relationships, or a lot of queer themes and elements on gender and relationships. Hell, even with stuff for boys, Dirty Pair of all things has a very progressive episode involving a trans character.

There was definitely progressive stuff in media from both the east and west during and before the time Dragon Ball was contemporary in Japan, 100 percent agreed. But at the same time the problematic stuff you can find in Dragon Ball was also super common back then.

Dragon Ball's lax attitude toward sexual harassment is bad but also you can find it in almost any 80s family comedy like insert John Hughes movie here or the Sandlot (where a character is rewarded for grabbing and kissing an older girl without her consent)

Dragon Ball's portrayal of black characters is spotty but like just watch any American movie in the 80s and try not to cringe on how Hollywood portrays Asian characters as Super Geniuses or Martial Arts masters or "Lololol they're not from here and can't speak English properly!"


And again that doesn't give Dragon Ball a pass but I do think "product of its time" is accurate.

[Majin Buu]

...or lord, sitting through Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and wondering why Toriyama doesn't just make an official 18+ Dragon Ball project so we can get his ass-expansion kink in a decidedly more appropriate place for that sort of thing.

If the sexual stuff in early Dragon Ball or Lady Red further back are any indication, I have a feeling the type of story Toriyama would produce under that kind of freedom, even if it wasn't tied to Dragon Ball, would paint a very ugly (or uglier) picture of what he's like as a person. The problematic stuff we already know about the guy isn't good so I don't have faith that he could write something like that without making it too gross to enjoy on any level.

I think the last thing Toriyama needs is the opportunity to add another Lady Red to his resume.

[JulieYBM]

...or lord, sitting through Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and wondering why Toriyama doesn't just make an official 18+ Dragon Ball project so we can get his ass-expansion kink in a decidedly more appropriate place for that sort of thing.

If the sexual stuff in early Dragon Ball or Lady Red further back are any indication, I have a feeling the type of story Toriyama would produce under that kind of freedom, even if it wasn't tied to Dragon Ball, would paint a very ugly (or uglier) picture of what he's like as a person. The problematic stuff we already know about the guy isn't good so I don't have faith that he could write something like that without making it too gross to enjoy on any level.

I think the last thing Toriyama needs is the opportunity to add another Lady Red to his resume.

Honestly, I'm not sure he could make anything actually horny. His stuff just comes off as non-horny misogyny, which is...yikes. Lady Red is definitely a good example of that.

[Basaku]

Sailor Moon fans thoght they were lucky back in 2012 too with Crystal announcement... we'll see how it goes.

I agree the goal may be primarly to reintroduce the series to US/worldwide markets where 1P never really catched on like in Japan and only now with the live-action's success it's getting that mainstream attention

[AliTheZombie13]

Sailor Moon fans thoght they were lucky back in 2012 too with Crystal announcement... we'll see how it goes.

"Oh my god, I'm finally going to see the anime as it was intended by the original author and... Wait... This is... Bad... This is terrible, actually... There is no damn way this was in the manga and... Oh no, it's 1:1 adaptation of the manga..."

Crystal completely shattered any bias I had that content not made by the original author was bad, or any content made by the original author was good.

[Basaku]

Sailor Moon fans thoght they were lucky back in 2012 too with Crystal announcement... we'll see how it goes.

"Oh my god, I'm finally going to see the anime as it was intended by the original author and... Wait... This is... Bad... This is terrible, actually... There is no damn way this was in the manga and... Oh no, it's 1:1 adaptation of the manga..."

Crystal completely shattered any bias I had that content not made by the original author was bad, or any content made by the original author was good.

Exactly lol. But I guess in the DB fandom most are still stuck in the "everything Toriyama does is always perfect and I will convince myself it is even when its not".

Granted, Crystal had other non-Takeuchi related issues too but the whole thing was a good reminder much anime writers and even corpo studio heads can add to the overall legacy and myth sorrounding the original mangas and how some filler/original material/expansion of the themes actually is deserving of its place within the saga even if not created by the original author

[Vegard Aune]

Sailor Moon fans thoght they were lucky back in 2012 too with Crystal announcement... we'll see how it goes.

"Oh my god, I'm finally going to see the anime as it was intended by the original author and... Wait... This is... Bad... This is terrible, actually... There is no damn way this was in the manga and... Oh no, it's 1:1 adaptation of the manga..."

Crystal completely shattered any bias I had that content not made by the original author was bad, or any content made by the original author was good.

For me, I had read the manga, but even then I was rather not prepared for how bad Crystal turned out to be. Granted, only part of that is down to the script. Crystal, at least in its first season, was just a disaster on pretty much every level. It was literally all the worst elements of the manga coupled with the worst of the 90s anime, failing to capture the good elements of either. It also led me to just feel that, with Sailor Moon, there is the potential for a great series in there but I don't think it's ever been fully realized. But who knows, maybe nowadays I might be more open to the more slice-of-life atmosphere of the 90s show. Watching it as a teenager I was just kinda frustrated at how little plot progression there was, but I feel like these days I'm much more willing to roll with purely character-focused stuff.