One Piece Remake, fans are so lucky...

[JulieYBM]

For me, I had read the manga, but even then I was rather not prepared for how bad Crystal turned out to be. Granted, only part of that is down to the script. Crystal, at least in its first season, was just a disaster on pretty much every level. It was literally all the worst elements of the manga coupled with the worst of the 90s anime, failing to capture the good elements of either. It also led me to just feel that, with Sailor Moon, there is the potential for a great series in there but I don't think it's ever been fully realized. But who knows, maybe nowadays I might be more open to the more slice-of-life atmosphere of the 90s show. Watching it as a teenager I was just kinda frustrated at how little plot progression there was, but I feel like these days I'm much more willing to roll with purely character-focused stuff.

Ironically enough, the 90's Sailor Moon filler segments are its biggest strength. I don't know who was writing the anime at the time, but they had a golden sense of comedy. Every single scene is hilarious and every character is so relatable and full of life that it's hard not to like a single one.

Once you start reading the manga/watching Crystal, it comes as a complete shock that Sailor Moon was intended to be a dead-serious melodramatic soap opera about Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask's romance... and that was by far the most uninteresting aspect of the original. Doesn't help that every other character acts like a piece of cardboard.

One of possible reasons why Crystal S1 was so bad, is that Toei had very little faith in that project, they thought SM is dead, musicals were over and while PGSM live action 2003 series have lots of fans today, it had poor sales at release...so i can "kinda" understand very low budget and poor quality, luckly after Black Moon, it got better from S3 onward

That disregards the fact that they assigned Series Director Sakai Munehisa to Crystal, one of their bigger directors (who left Toei right after the clusterfuck that was Crystal's first 26 episodes). The problem is the same as with Dragon Ball Super: Toei Animation had seven weekly anime in production, multiple films and specials, and were greenlighting productions in the middle of moving studios and not scheduling and recruiting staff properly.

[MasenkoHA]

For me, I had read the manga, but even then I was rather not prepared for how bad Crystal turned out to be. Granted, only part of that is down to the script. Crystal, at least in its first season, was just a disaster on pretty much every level. It was literally all the worst elements of the manga coupled with the worst of the 90s anime, failing to capture the good elements of either. It also led me to just feel that, with Sailor Moon, there is the potential for a great series in there but I don't think it's ever been fully realized. But who knows, maybe nowadays I might be more open to the more slice-of-life atmosphere of the 90s show. Watching it as a teenager I was just kinda frustrated at how little plot progression there was, but I feel like these days I'm much more willing to roll with purely character-focused stuff.

Ironically enough, the 90's Sailor Moon filler segments are its biggest strength. I don't know who was writing the anime at the time, but they had a golden sense of comedy. Every single scene is hilarious and every character is so relatable and full of life that it's hard not to like a single one.

Once you start reading the manga/watching Crystal, it comes as a complete shock that Sailor Moon was intended to be a dead-serious melodramatic soap opera about Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask's romance... and that was by far the most uninteresting aspect of the original. Doesn't help that every other character acts like a piece of cardboard.

One of possible reasons why Crystal S1 was so bad, is that Toei had very little faith in that project, they thought SM is dead, musicals were over and while PGSM live action 2003 series have lots of fans today, it had poor sales at release...so i can "kinda" understand very low budget and poor quality, luckly after Black Moon, it got better from S3 onward

They promoted the hell out of it. It wasn't little faith as much as probably just thinking the nostalgia would sell the product instead of quality. I. E Dragon Ball Super syndrome

[AliTheZombie13]

One of possible reasons why Crystal S1 was so bad, is that Toei had very little faith in that project, they thought SM is dead, musicals were over and while PGSM live action 2003 series have lots of fans today, it had poor sales at release...so i can "kinda" understand very low budget and poor quality, luckly after Black Moon, it got better from S3 onward

I don't care much about the garbage-looking animation, it's more because the story completely and utterly fails to get my interest. Takeuchi's character work is abysmal. I want to see my favorite characters' lives, how they interact with each other, how they live, their normal-life worries and problems and mundane adventures... And the manga just doesn't focus on that.

This is also a problem I have with Dragon Ball in general, especially after the "Z era", the characters having downtime and slice-of-life is extremely rare, it's "bleak universal-threatening action" 24/7 and it bores the hell out of me. I believe that for any story to work, you need to connect with the characters first, so when tragedy hits, the hits will hurt harder. And I can't really care about the hits if all my characters are pieces of cardboard.

[Basaku]

.

I believe that for any story to work, you need to connect with the characters first, so when tragedy hits, the hits will hurt harder. And I can't really care about the hits if all my characters are pieces of cardboard.

While I agree 100% with this, I don't see how it applies to Super/GT, at least in the most direct sense of the actual screentime ('cause you said it's been rare). Both Super & GT absolutely featured substantial number of episodes and scenes with slice-of-life stuff, comedy filler and other insertions that don't deal at all with the main universe-theathening plot and, at least theoretically, should build up what you're talking about - the much needed investement and inlook into the characters we're suppoused to care about in later action sequences. I think the screentime balance is actually well kept in both.

Perhaps it's more of a question of the actual QUALITY of the slice-of-life stuff and how much it really adds to the characters versus a rehash of the same flanderized caricatures and slapstick jokes we've been recycling over and over again for the past 30 years. How do I put it nicely... many fans ATE UP the parties in Yo! Son Goku and BOG, mindlessly praising every single joke possible (good or bad) and anything that appeared as slice of life stuff despite the fact that next to nothing of it added anything of substance to any of the characters involved. Sans the new characters of Beerus & Whis.

Early Z slice-of-life/filler, in-between episodes and jokes developed lil Gohan's character fast and thus made us care about him immensly by the time we reached Namek. On the opposite side of the coin - between Yo! Son Goku, BOG and Super the pair of Present!Trunks and Goten also recieved actually quite a bit of screentime too, yet it was completly wasted on random jokes and bland adventures that did absolutely NOTHING for either of their characters. Super Hero Manga Prologue did in just 3 chapters more for Present!Trunks' character and our investement than Toriyama and Toei did since the 90s.

So yeah, my point is that just having slice-of-life episodes doesn't automatically mean anything yet, they need to be good as well and actually add something to the characters, otherwise they're just as much a waste of time as mindless and non-character-driven action episodes.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Ironically enough, the 90's Sailor Moon filler segments are its biggest strength. I don't know who was writing the anime at the time, but they had a golden sense of comedy. Every single scene is hilarious and every character is so relatable and full of life that it's hard not to like a single one.

Once you start reading the manga/watching Crystal, it comes as a complete shock that Sailor Moon was intended to be a dead-serious melodramatic soap opera about Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask's romance... and that was by far the most uninteresting aspect of the original. Doesn't help that every other character acts like a piece of cardboard.

One of possible reasons why Crystal S1 was so bad, is that Toei had very little faith in that project, they thought SM is dead, musicals were over and while PGSM live action 2003 series have lots of fans today, it had poor sales at release...so i can "kinda" understand very low budget and poor quality, luckly after Black Moon, it got better from S3 onward

That disregards the fact that they assigned Series Director Sakai Munehisa to Crystal, one of their bigger directors (who left Toei right after the clusterfuck that was Crystal's first 26 episodes). The problem is the same as with Dragon Ball Super: Toei Animation had seven weekly anime in production, multiple films and specials, and were greenlighting productions in the middle of moving studios and not scheduling and recruiting staff properly.

I used to blame Munehisa Sakai because I thought he was an awful director, he also did Suite Precure which I HATED but then realized his animation and directing is TOP NOTCH. He did Zombieland Saga and that was AMAZING and cute. He could have done something awesome for Sailor Moon if they treated it like Daima.

[Basaku]

I used to blame Munehisa Sakai because I thought he was an awful director, he also did Suite Precure which I HATED but then realized his animation and directing is TOP NOTCH. He did Zombieland Saga and that was AMAZING and cute. He could have done something awesome for Sailor Moon if they treated it like Daima.

Well, maybe 1 good thing that came out of early-Super and SM Crystal animation debacle is the fact that Toei is now well aware how much internet-meme culture can rip them apart and will not repeat the same mistakes esp when it comes to the most beloved legacy franchises

I mean, these will haunt them FOREVER

[coola]

I used to blame Munehisa Sakai because I thought he was an awful director, he also did Suite Precure which I HATED but then realized his animation and directing is TOP NOTCH. He did Zombieland Saga and that was AMAZING and cute. He could have done something awesome for Sailor Moon if they treated it like Daima.

Well, maybe 1 good thing that came out of early-Super and SM Crystal animation debacle is the fact that Toei is now well aware how much internet-meme culture can rip them apart and will not repeat the same mistakes esp when it comes to the most beloved legacy franchises

I mean, these will haunt them FOREVER

If i remember correctly, even one of main news channels in Mexico talked about how bad that episode of Super was

[Basaku]

If i remember correctly, even one of main news channels in Mexico talked about how bad that episode of Super was

You. When a freaking cartoon animation becomes international mainstream news you know you done fucked up TBH I'm still surprised Super managed to recover as Crystal never really got there anymore after the memes

[AliTheZombie13]

While I agree 100% with this, I don't see how it applies to Super/GT, at least in the most direct sense of the actual screentime ('cause you said it's been rare). Both Super & GT absolutely featured substantial number of episodes and scenes with slice-of-life stuff, comedy filler and other insertions that don't deal at all with the main universe-theathening plot and, at least theoretically, should build up what you're talking about - the much needed investement and inlook into the characters we're suppoused to care about in later action sequences. I think the screentime balance is actually well kept in both.

Perhaps it's more of a question of the actual QUALITY of the slice-of-life stuff and how much it really adds to the characters versus a rehash of the same flanderized caricatures and slapstick jokes we've been recycling over and over again for the past 30 years. How do I put it nicely... many fans ATE UP the parties in Yo! Son Goku and BOG, mindlessly praising every single joke possible (good or bad) and anything that appeared as slice of life stuff despite the fact that next to nothing of it added anything of substance to any of the characters involved. Sans the new characters of Beerus & Whis.

Early Z slice-of-life/filler, in-between episodes and jokes developed lil Gohan's character fast and thus made us care about him immensly by the time we reached Namek. On the opposite side of the coin - between Yo! Son Goku, BOG and Super the pair of Present!Trunks and Goten also recieved actually quite a bit of screentime too, yet it was completly wasted on random jokes and bland adventures that did absolutely NOTHING for either of their characters. Super Hero Manga Prologue did in just 3 chapters more for Present!Trunks' character and our investement than Toriyama and Toei did since the 90s.

So yeah, my point is that just having slice-of-life episodes doesn't automatically mean anything yet, they need to be good as well and actually add something to the characters, otherwise they're just as much a waste of time as mindless and non-character-driven action episodes.

Yes, that's the thing, too. The slice-of-life needs to be well done and make you feel for the characters.
I absolutely adore the Afterlife Tournament and the first mini-arc of Gohan as the Great Saiyaman, and also the early episodes of GT, because I get to know the characters I'll be rooting for when things get serious.

But the problem with Super's slice-of-life is... Episode 2 of Super:

"Goku, you killed me by bringing Cell to my planet, then you destroyed my house, then you didn't help me at all to rebuild it at all, then you come here, destroy my house a second time, brings a giant bulldozer to my planet, ruins my lawn, now you're destroying my entire planet all over again!" - Kaio

"Blah blah blah, you're weak anyway, feed me! " - Goku

Instead of making me root for Goku, it makes me want Goku to be Hakai'd... immediately.

[Basaku]

But the problem with Super's slice-of-life is... Episode 2 of Super:

"Goku, you killed me by bringing Cell to my planet, then you destroyed my house, then you didn't help me at all to rebuild it at all, then you come here, destroy my house a second time, brings a giant bulldozer to my planet, ruins my lawn, now you're destroying my entire planet all over again!" - Kaio

"Blah blah blah, you're weak anyway, feed me! " - Goku

Instead of making me root for Goku, it makes me want Goku to be Hakai'd... immediately.

Yup. The moronification of Goku is part of this topic and a massive issue in itself and I complelty agree. TBH at this stage I literally ignore his character and treat it as a little more than a plot device because it's not a character anymore nor even a caricature, it's below that and it makes it impossible for me to root or care for him in any way.

I hope Toriayma got his "Goku is a literal idiot" out of his system already, got his troll fun and will do something decent with his character again in the future. Or retire him completly 'cause what's the point anymore.

[Vegard Aune]

I hope Toriayma got his "Goku's is a literal idiot" out of his system already, got his troll fun and will do something decent with his character again in the future. Or retire him completly 'cause what's the point anymore.

I kinda get the feeling that Toriyama saw how utterly wrong Goku's portrayal was in Dragonball Evolution and somehow internalized that the real Goku should be the exact opposite of that, making him arguably an outright sociopath ever since. Like, yes, Goku has always been known to make stupid decisions for the sake of a good fight... But ever since Battle of Gods that's seemed to be the only thing he cares about, to the point where he seems to be utterly unconcerned with the safety of his loved ones... Almost like he literally doesn't even have loved ones... Which he is supposed to. Like, dude ain't winning any Father of the Year awards obviously, but reading the manga I do still at least get the feeling that he does love his wife, his son (he barely gets any time to bond with Goten at all so that one is dubious... Gohan he certainly does care for though) and his friends. And while fighting Vegeta or Freeza, sure, he focuses pretty heavily on "Wow this guy is super strong!", but not to the complete exclusion of "Oh no, what will this guy do to my friends/family/world if I can't stop him?!" Meanwhile in Battle of Gods and most stuff since, that latter concern seems to hardly ever enter his mind.

tl;dr: Yo Toriyama, even if you don't want Goku to be a full-on superhero it is okay for him to have some heroic traits mixed with his more selfish tendencies okay? He used to have that. Would be nice to see him have that again.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I dunno I think even Toriyama's more sociopathic Goku loves Goten. How did he react in the manga version of Zamasu killing Goten and Chichi?

[Vegard Aune]

I dunno I think even Toriyama's more sociopathic Goku loves Goten. How did he react in the manga version of Zamasu killing Goten and Chichi?

The manga didn't have that bit. All that was there in the manga was Goku asking where the version of him that Zamasu hijacked was, to which Zamasu/Black says "I killed him as soon as we swapped" and Goku is like "Guess I gotta avenge myself too, then".

[Cure Dragon 255]

I see that Toei isnt ALL BAD then. Zamasu was the first arc that was good in the anime.

[Basaku]

tl;dr: Yo Toriyama, even if you don't want Goku to be a full-on superhero it is okay for him to have some heroic traits mixed with his more selfish tendencies okay? He used to have that. Would be nice to see him have that again.

Yup. Goku in Z had just that kind of a good balance, even during Buu saga. Why does Toriyama think this full-on imbecile from Super is somehow MORE interesting to us and carries the story better is beyond me. And my favourite part - 2 sons made, never kissed. I mean... Dear Toriyama sensei, are you self-projecting something here? Because this is just beyond ludicrous

[Cure Dragon 255]

tl;dr: Yo Toriyama, even if you don't want Goku to be a full-on superhero it is okay for him to have some heroic traits mixed with his more selfish tendencies okay? He used to have that. Would be nice to see him have that again.

Yup. Goku in Z had just that kind of a good balance, even during Buu saga. Why does Toriyama think this full-on imbecile from Super is somehow MORE interesting to us and carries the story better is beyond me. And my favourite part - 2 sons made, never kissed. I mean... Dear Toriyama sensei, are you self-projecting something here? Because this is just beyond ludicrous

*Insert Never Been Kissed movie poster with Goku's Face*

[Basaku]

*Insert Never Been Kissed movie poster with Goku's Face*

FFS Cure now I will waste my evening watching that movie of course, thanks a lot....

xD

[Cure Dragon 255]

I knew someone would say that. Or at least I hoped. I love it its really cute.

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't care much about the garbage-looking animation, it's more because the story completely and utterly fails to get my interest. Takeuchi's character work is abysmal. I want to see my favorite characters' lives, how they interact with each other, how they live, their normal-life worries and problems and mundane adventures... And the manga just doesn't focus on that.

This is also a problem I have with Dragon Ball in general, especially after the "Z era", the characters having downtime and slice-of-life is extremely rare, it's "bleak universal-threatening action" 24/7 and it bores the hell out of me. I believe that for any story to work, you need to connect with the characters first, so when tragedy hits, the hits will hurt harder. And I can't really care about the hits if all my characters are pieces of cardboard.

Having been working my way through SM, I completely agree with you on this. Takeuchi is clearly very imaginative and inventive. Her art is beautiful. But so much of her story is esoteric exposition. They are fantastic ideas, but the characters engaged in them left me cold. I remember how shocked I was in the first story when it's revealed they're all reincarnated ancient moon people. I was shocked because that should leave a huge impact on the girls... but it doesn't. They just fall into those roles without question, which just sapped my connection to them. So while the animated series is far more formulaic, it at least gives time to get to know who the characters are you're supposed to be rooting for. But that's why I ended up loving the live-action series so much, and why it became my favorite telling. It's the only version of Sailor Moon I've seen that truly feels character-driven rather than plot-driven. The focus is how the characters grow and change, how they react to and deal with the responsibilities placed on them. I've never cared about the SM story as much as when I was watching the 2003 series. While I haven't seen Crystal, if it does follow the manga's approach to characterization, I can see why it falls flat with a lot of people.

And, yeah, that applies to DB as well. As much as people say that they only care about DB because of the fights, I can almost guarantee people wouldn't care about those fights if they didn't care about the characters. Freeza killing Kuririn, Gohan transforming against Cell, Vegeta betraying everybody (every single time). Those are the moments people remember because they're what engage them. The fights resonate because they are dramatic situations in which to place those characters, to push them to their physical and emotional limits. It's not just an MMA match with super powers. It's a narrative with dramatic stakes. And when it feels more like the former than the latter, there's nothing to keep people invested.

[Adamant]

fyi the original Sailor Moon TV anime was never meant to be an adaptation of the manga. The manga and the anime started at the same time and were always intended to be two different ways of presenting the same story - kinda like what Super ended up doing, really, but in Sailor Moon's case the two versions were aimed at pretty different audiences. But obviously a weekly TV series and a monthly manga need to be paced differently if they're going to cover the same plot beats in the same amount of weeks.

(also, the Dark Kingdom arc is kinda bleh in the manga, it gets better after that)