Inclusivity towards women in Dragon Ball?

[Mireya]

Fair enough.

[Cure Dragon 255]

The original run occasionally introduces female fighters- Only to have virtually all of them become housewives and moms in the end.

And this is why I'm happy Toriyama forgot (?) Lunch, she disappeared, but she at least disappeared with her status intact.

I think he wrote her out because she was too much of a gag character to keep around in the more serious direction the series was heading in and the joke with her had worn thin anyways. There was a provided explanation for why she was no longer around (chasing after Tenshinhan according to Kuririn) so he definitely didn't forget about her.

I love that Toriyama is a gag manga artist and got rid of Lunch anyways.

[MasenkoHA]

And this is why I'm happy Toriyama forgot (?) Lunch, she disappeared, but she at least disappeared with her status intact.

I think he wrote her out because she was too much of a gag character to keep around in the more serious direction the series was heading in and the joke with her had worn thin anyways. There was a provided explanation for why she was no longer around (chasing after Tenshinhan according to Kuririn) so he definitely didn't forget about her.

I love that Toriyama is a gag manga artist and got rid of Lunch anyways.

I mean when your editor is telling you "Do Fist of the Northstar more manly muscular men and pew pew pew and less poop jokes" you don't have much room for gag characters.

[Kunzait_83]

I don't think inclusion should be forced. It should come off as natural.

People say this all the time but what the fuck does that even mean? Yeah if it's a story about all boy boarding school or a Men's Prison I wouldn't expect too many women characters but its a martial arts series. How would the inclusion of [insert group here] feel forced?

This has been one of the single most blatantly idiotic points about the whole idiotic "forced diversity" argument.

In 99.999999% of most cases, diversity and inclusion in media is simply reflecting the reality of the fucking world we live in. Black and brown people exist. Women exist. Queer people exist. And they're not rare or infrequent sights out there in the world whatsoever. Women are 50% of the fucking population.

Bitching about representation and diversity in media is literally just bitching about being reminded that people who aren't cis white hetero men also exist in the world and also have stories and points of view that are worthwhile and worth focusing on. Stories about white guys and featuring white male protagonists aren't going anywhere at all, ever, believe me.

Bitching constantly about this and claiming that its "forced" only serves to make you look ridiculously petty and selfish at best. And hell, having such a homogenized palette of characters across enough of a wide breadth of media frankly makes fiction and art way more BORING than reality, when its supposed to be the other way around.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think he wrote her out because she was too much of a gag character to keep around in the more serious direction the series was heading in and the joke with her had worn thin anyways. There was a provided explanation for why she was no longer around (chasing after Tenshinhan according to Kuririn) so he definitely didn't forget about her.

I love that Toriyama is a gag manga artist and got rid of Lunch anyways.

I mean when your editor is telling you "Do Fist of the Northstar more manly muscular men and pew pew pew and less poop jokes" you don't have much room for gag characters.

I see. I dont think Torishima forced him thought I dont know why I feel that way.

[MasenkoHA]

I love that Toriyama is a gag manga artist and got rid of Lunch anyways.

I mean when your editor is telling you "Do Fist of the Northstar more manly muscular men and pew pew pew and less poop jokes" you don't have much room for gag characters.

I see. I dont think Torishima forced him thought I dont know why I feel that way.

Afaik he didn't force him as much as he told Toriyama that's what he needed to do if he wanted the comic to sell better.

And Toriyama, being a man who also likes money, obliged

[Adamant]

Not only do editors have veto powers, it was also less "sell better" and more "not get canceled". Readers weren't responding that well to the series and Torishima was coming up with a way to steer in into a better received direction.

[Mireya]

I don't think inclusion should be forced. It should come off as natural.

People say this all the time but what the fuck does that even mean? Yeah if it's a story about all boy boarding school or a Men's Prison I wouldn't expect too many women characters but its a martial arts series. How would the inclusion of [insert group here] feel forced?

This has been one of the single most blatantly idiotic points about the whole idiotic "forced diversity" argument.

In 99.999999% of most cases, diversity and inclusion in media is simply reflecting the reality of the fucking world we live in. Black and brown people exist. Women exist. Queer people exist. And they're not rare or infrequent sights out there in the world whatsoever. Women are 50% of the fucking population.

Bitching about representation and diversity in media is literally just bitching about being reminded that people who aren't cis white hetero men also exist in the world and also have stories and points of view that are worthwhile and worth focusing on. Stories about white guys and featuring white male protagonists aren't going anywhere at all, ever, believe me.

Bitching constantly about this and claiming that its "forced" only serves to make you look ridiculously petty and selfish at best. And hell, having such a homogenized palette of characters across enough of a wide breadth of media frankly makes fiction and art way more BORING than reality, when its supposed to be the other way around.

Force diversity is meant to imply putting people for the sake of representation rather than having the author choose who he wants to put in their story without being scrutinized for not depicting certain gender or ethnicities in a proportional way... Specially in a Japanese manga, revolved around fight and violence. So long as the author isn't disrespectful towards certain ethnicity they depict, they should have the freedom to choose the profile they think best suit certain character and make an entertaining story. Pleasing people taking the liberty of choosing the profile of the character demanding diversity in many fronts is not what I seek from a story, I seek an enjoyable and entertaining one.

Now, as I've seen other responses from you, you sound like an emotional individual who acts edge with insults, which shows how insecure you're . I really don't know why all those shitty attitude and arrogance mixed with pretentious that's comes from you is constantly overlooked here, when you act like a smartass in a comfort place where there's a screen protecting you. Drop this attitude as it just makes you look childish and insecure, please. You can make your points without sounding like an ass every time.

[JulieYBM]

People say this all the time but what the fuck does that even mean? Yeah if it's a story about all boy boarding school or a Men's Prison I wouldn't expect too many women characters but its a martial arts series. How would the inclusion of [insert group here] feel forced?

This has been one of the single most blatantly idiotic points about the whole idiotic "forced diversity" argument.

In 99.999999% of most cases, diversity and inclusion in media is simply reflecting the reality of the fucking world we live in. Black and brown people exist. Women exist. Queer people exist. And they're not rare or infrequent sights out there in the world whatsoever. Women are 50% of the fucking population.

Bitching about representation and diversity in media is literally just bitching about being reminded that people who aren't cis white hetero men also exist in the world and also have stories and points of view that are worthwhile and worth focusing on. Stories about white guys and featuring white male protagonists aren't going anywhere at all, ever, believe me.

Bitching constantly about this and claiming that its "forced" only serves to make you look ridiculously petty and selfish at best. And hell, having such a homogenized palette of characters across enough of a wide breadth of media frankly makes fiction and art way more BORING than reality, when its supposed to be the other way around.

Force diversity is meant to imply putting people for the sake of representation rather than having the author choose who he wants to put in their story without being scrutinized for not depicting certain gender or ethnicities in a proportional way... Specially in a Japanese manga, revolved around fight and violence. So long as the author isn't disrespectful towards certain ethnicity they depict, they should have the freedom to choose the profile they think best suit certain character and make an entertaining story. Pleasing people taking the liberty of choosing the profile of the character demanding diversity in many fronts is not what I seek from a story, I seek an enjoyable and entertaining one.

Now, as I've seen other responses from you, you sound like an emotional individual who acts edge with insults, which shows how insecure you're . I really don't know why all those shitty attitude and arrogance mixed with pretentious that's comes from you is constantly overlooked here, when you act like a smartass in a comfort place where there's a screen protecting you. Drop this attitude as it just makes you look childish and insecure, please. You can make your points without sounding like an ass every time.

The 'forced diversity' that people often complain about is just capitalists thinking that they can gain more money, rather than actually caring about women and minorities. Nobody's ever complained about some small-time author being 'forced' to include diversity in their media project, because those creators aren't the subject of large fanbases. Cape shit? Star Wars shit? Or whatever dumb franchise you can think of? These are franchises that exist by-and-for corporations. People of color, queer people and women aren't bullying them—or anime, manga and video games—into jackshit that they wouldn't do to make an extra buck unprompted.

Dragon Ball, Toriyama, or Toyo-tarou do not need to be defended by people as if anyone being critical of their depictions of diversity (or lackthereof) are some sort of overpowering force that are ruining fandom media. We're demanding better representation of ourselves in media, not being weird racist Nazis like everyone complaining about our existence in fandom spaces (the very fandom spaces that we created, mind you).

[FireFly]

Spoiler:

Forced diversity exists and has plagued numerous TV shows and canons, I mean we have Ariel from the Little Mermaid being swapped out for a black chick (a completely pointless change and one that arguably undermines redheads, who themselves have had a history of marginalization) and totally ruining its chances in cinema polls for god's sake lol.

I also find it funny this thread has done a 180 from simply discussing female representation to shitting on capitalism and calling the opposition Nazis. Really goes to show the state of the modern left today.

[MasenkoHA]

Spoiler:

Forced diversity exists and has plagued numerous TV shows and canons, I mean we have Ariel from the Little Mermaid being swapped out for a black chick (a completely pointless change and one that arguably undermines redheads, who themselves have had a history of marginalization) and totally ruining its chances in cinema polls for god's sake lol.

She got cast because she had the best singing voice of the actress who auditioned.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-litt ... ec4e824a0d
....to play a mythical half human half fish lady, something that doesn't actually exist and isn't race specific.




Aren't you people supposed to be for merit?

Also red heads are literally everywhere in media so fuck off with that shit

You are 100 percent proving Kunzait's earlier point. "Forced diversity" is just you whining about having to see more poc/queer people/women on your screen.

I also find it funny this thread has done a 180 from simply discussing female representation to shitting on capitalism and calling the opposition Nazis. Really goes to show the state of the modern left today.

Did you know the average clown makes $64K a year?
https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... own-salary

And yet here you are....being one for free

[FireFly]

Spoiler:

Forced diversity exists and has plagued numerous TV shows and canons, I mean we have Ariel from the Little Mermaid being swapped out for a black chick (a completely pointless change and one that arguably undermines redheads, who themselves have had a history of marginalization) and totally ruining its chances in cinema polls for god's sake lol.

She got cast because she had the best singing voice of the actress who auditioned.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-litt ... ec4e824a0d
....to play a mythical half human half fish lady, something that doesn't actually exist and isn't race specific.

Aren't you people supposed to be for merit?

Also red heads are literally everywhere in media so fuck off with that shit

First off, Huffington post is a decidedly left-wing news outlet that's repeatedly shown hypocrisy on the subject of female and male sexualization by glorifying fat women while drooling on the physiques of athletic and successful men.

Secondly, Ariel is hardly the only character or position filled by random POCs to the organization or movie's detriment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvNPKwz ... l2ZXJzaXR5

This video says it all.

Also the "you people are supposed to be for merit" remark fails to sting when left-wing dominated Harvard admissions teams were the ones disqualifying Asian students by marking them down for lacking "courageous personal traits" when they had higher on average qualifications. The American left are hardly ones who have merit as anything close to their top criteria, hence "forced diversity" being so common a criticism of them. They're also openly racist toward Asians and Jews and show the soft bigotry of low expectations toward black and brown people.

Good job ignoring the main point of my previous post, that being the Reddit screenshot of a 30-person village having every form of forced diversity humanly possible specifically to target the vocally loud "woke" audience.

You are 100 percent proving Kunzait's earlier point. "Forced diversity" is just you whining about having to see more poc/queer people/women on your screen.

No. If Caulifla and Kale were tastefully handled characters then by all means I would applaud them for being great female representation, what would actually irk me is if Ariel had been genderbent and lost integrity to the original character that was portrayed in the novel and animated adaptation - this is something the left does so much that Marvel writers have blamed their falling sales on diversity itself lol.

Also I'm not white so miss me with that "u bigoted" nonsense.

I also find it funny this thread has done a 180 from simply discussing female representation to shitting on capitalism and calling the opposition Nazis. Really goes to show the state of the modern left today.

Did you know the average clown makes $64K a year?
https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ ... own-salary

And yet here you are....being one for free

Exactly what I mean by ad hominem that the left is preciously guilty of, yet hypocritically sensitive toward coming from the other side. I'm not even a right-wing nut either, I just have common sense enough to see that cancel culture comes disproportionately from the liberals. If Mareya or anyone else arguing on his side had called the other side idiotic half as many times as you people I doubt he'd be posting right now.

[Soppa Saia People]

To be fair everyone should ignore reddit posts and screenshots, it should probably never be the crux of an argument.

[FireFly]

To be fair everyone should ignore reddit posts and screenshots, it should probably never be the crux of an argument.

In this case I saw it as relevant considering we have stuff like black actresses playing Cleopatra and other historically inaccurate nonsense these days. I don't even think diversity is all bad (so don't go calling me a bigot), at least we don't have Asian or black characters being whitewashed in movies like live-action Mulan where it would be totally historically inaccurate and unfaithful. I, like many other people, just find it oversaturated to the point of compromising integrity of the works. And I'm not a white man either so it's not like I feel my whiteness is being infringed.

[JulieYBM]

Getting beat up by the movie that makes a queer womam of color's day, to own the libs and prove that white cishet men are the real victims in the supposedly tolerant left

[Majin Buu]

She got cast because she had the best singing voice of the actress who auditioned.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-litt ... ec4e824a0d
....to play a mythical half human half fish lady, something that doesn't actually exist and isn't race specific.

Aren't you people supposed to be for merit?

Also red heads are literally everywhere in media so fuck off with that shit

Right-wingers love to complain about how marginalized people "have a chip on their shoulder" because they keep talking about their marginalization- While they themselves grasp at straws for any opportunity to play the victim. That hypocrisy is common for them.

And I'm not a white man either so it's not like I feel my whiteness is being infringed.

And? There's black folk that carry water for white supremacy. There's women that carry water for patriarchy. Etc.

[FireFly]

She got cast because she had the best singing voice of the actress who auditioned.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-litt ... ec4e824a0d
....to play a mythical half human half fish lady, something that doesn't actually exist and isn't race specific.

Aren't you people supposed to be for merit?

Also red heads are literally everywhere in media so fuck off with that shit

Right-wingers love to complain about how marginalized people "have a chip on their shoulder" because they keep talking about their marginalization- While they themselves grasp at straws for any opportunity to play the victim. That hypocrisy is common for them.

And I'm not a white man either so it's not like I feel my whiteness is being infringed.

And? There's black folk that carry water for white supremacy. There's women that carry water for patriarchy. Etc.

Calling out the entirety of my argument in strawman terms to call me white supremacist for disagreeing with you is exactly what I mean by the oversimplification - and ad hominem as well - from the left. I find it insanely presumptuous that you think you know my racial views better than I do, but for the sake of clarification I'll just say race as we identify it has no effect whatsoever on physical prowess or mental capabilities, it's literally something called epidermis - something that's governed by a minute number of genes (far less than 10% of 1% of our genetic makeup). I literally couldn't care less if they made a bunch of new characters that had my skin color or darker ones. As long as it's done in a way that's relevant to the way the character is being portrayed and how they're being interacted with, and as long as it meshes well with the overarching story.

Black L in Death Note, for example, didn't mesh well and while it had a lot to do with the movie itself sucking, the pandering to the diversity crowd didn't help.

What I do find dumb is the degree and quickness of which left-wingers are to call the opposition racists and Nazis and misogynists when a simple read of my second post would show you that I'm all for female representation if the characters are good (Caulifla and Kale were not), also my criticism of the left goes beyond just movie character representation (although I think it's overdone) and goes straight to anti-meritocracy, like affirmative action in college and university admissions that unfairly disqualifies people of Asiatic descent even with higher qualifications (something the left fought dastardily hard to preserve when other methods of gaining diversity were available). That's pretty racist, isn't it?

I don't even dislike all the left is doing. I think it's great that voice actors like Kang are able to voice Japanese-written characters like Guts, or that Netflix shows that are dubbed tend to be dubbed with POC voice acting. But if more than half the characters in the MCU that are rewritten from their original counterparts are non-white to the point that it's actually disproportionate in the opposite direction of whitewashing, then I think that's dumb too. Which, again, isn't helped by the fact that movies that try to gain brownie points by putting more queers and darker-skinned people in them don't tend to be well-written which exacerbates the impression that they're just using diversity to make money.

[Majin Buu]

Calling out the entirety of my argument in strawman terms to call me white supremacist for disagreeing with you is exactly what I mean by the oversimplification - and ad hominem as well - from the left.

Projection is another thing the right loves to do. In this case- Claiming that I oversimplified your argument when that's exactly what you're doing to my argument (I was clearly wrong for thinking I didnt need to spell out the argument for you).

My point was that you not being a white man doesn't make you immune from falling into regressive thinking- The kind of regressive thinking you've been displaying thus far.

[FireFly]

Calling out the entirety of my argument in strawman terms to call me white supremacist for disagreeing with you is exactly what I mean by the oversimplification - and ad hominem as well - from the left.

Projection is another thing the right loves to do. In this case- Claiming that I oversimplified your argument when that's exactly what you're doing to my argument (I was clearly wrong for thinking I didnt need to spell out the argument for you).

My point was that you not being a white man doesn't make you immune from falling into regressive thinking- The kind of regressive thinking you've been displaying thus far.

I don't see what's regressive about my line of thinking. I'm all for strong female characters. I think the first two Alien movies did a splendid job making a female warrior/survivor character. That's something I can't say for most of the current generation's attempts at female inclusivity because almost all the diversity-conscious movies suck and make the concept of female and POC representation look worse than it has to. Just look at Terminator: Dark Fate. Shitty movie, and it failed to make the new female protagonist anything close to a good replacement for John Connor; consequently the movie bombed in theaters.

If it was done well, there wouldn't be such widespread criticism of it. And it's not like the current generation is the first one to try and be racially diverse. I just think the way they do it sucks.

[Mireya]

We are not arguing that diversity is a bad thing at all which is a misrepresentation from the way you guys face force diversity. We are saying that adding character for the sake of pleasing the audience and keep it diverse in stories with established targeted ethnicity and country done in is far from being as sensible as you think it is, because we are in for faithful representation of characters and for freedom of the writer to choose who he wants to portray in his series, not feel limited by needing to represent what he didn't intend to do. I also don't see why people of different sexual orientation for instance would be offended by the lack of it in a series, when it isn't ignoring their existence, choosing what to depict is totally at the creators discretion and as long as they don't demean any group in specific, freedom of casting and writing character they better seen fit is what should be encouraged because we want a coherent story,not a story that is done solely for people feeling well represented when those corporations (funny coming from ppl who bash capitalism) profits over it and think inclusion is a way to appease ppl and go with the tide when they're as capitalists as they come. Funny how insults are allowed as long as one side does it.