Inclusivity towards women in Dragon Ball?

[JulieYBM]

I don't think she needed a dramatic reveal like that.
I mean, #17 and Freeza got billions of times stronger by casually training off-screen for a few months.

Oh, I agree. I'd personally be more interested in the drama and comedy of "Mr. Satan unwittingly married an actual devil and now his daughter is the princess of a soon-to-be invading army and Videl has to try and stop the Earth from being invaded and destroyed." That at least would have been a cool way to keep the series focused on the Videl and Gohan dynamic, too.

[Mireya]

Oh, and mind you, I didn't hold a grudge from 4 years. I remember what happened, but I joined and discussed DB only. This is the first more delicate topic I got into with reasonable approaches. You hoped in calling, in an indirect way, my point moronic and I just remembered you THEN and associated with that prick from that thread. But then when I mentioned such discussion indirectly, you told such a person there, me, defends sexual aggression acts --- which is calling me a criminal. You are an unbelievable fool who I can't believe hasn't been banned for egregious things like those, since wrongly raising doubts upon a case is one thing, a moronic view... But actually supporting the sexual aggression and the act itself is another which weights in a way that makes you a calluniator. And a coward.

[VegettoEX]

The leaps you're making are bonkers (see earlier: is this a bit?). If you're on your (at least?) third account, and you keep getting called out by multiple members for bizarre things and ultimately banned... perhaps you're the common denominator here, and that's worth considering?

To an(other) earlier point: why do you need to keep coming back? It's clearly not working. We're not meant for each other. You could have just gone away forever and no-one would remember or care.

You're done here. You've said enough. More than enough. We get it. We do. Really. I promise you. Understood. Aye, captain. Gotcha.

This has been brought off-track so much -- I have to congratulate and thank the folks who keep trying to pull it even remotely on the rails again. Thank you thank you, and I'd love to hear some other thoughts from folks who perhaps aren't already contributing!

[Kid Buu]

Nobody cares about "forced diversity", we care about "outright offensive and disgusting diversity."
Dragon Ball does have a gay character... and he's a pedophile.
Dragon Ball does have women... and most exist to be wives and walking sex jokes. Some of them are literally 9 year olds.
Dragon Ball does have black characters... that are literally racist caricatures.

To play devil's advocate, I do like some of these characters because offensive aspects aside, they are good characters. But if somebody tells you that Dragon Ball is homophobic/racist, rightfully pointing to characters like General Blue, Black, Mr. Popo, etc. There is no argument against it.

And by the way, I get it. This was all in the past. But it absolutely deserves to be pointed out and criticized.

I'm with this. I'm not against diversity but Dragon Ball has historically handled it in such a bigoted way that I dread it happening with any future characters.

That's... almost the opposite of what's being discussed here. The creators wanted an Asian and an Indian from the getgo, and the studio wanted to force them to make it a white and black guy: that's an example of the studio trying to make the movie LESS diverse and not more diverse.

Kind of wish you said East Asian and Indian because Indians are technically Asian.

[Mireya]

Sure I rest my case and my time here is done. I came because I value DB discussions and informations and debates. It's done. IP ban me already. And no, I'm not the common denominator, but that's enough said.

Oh and I was never called by multiple member until now btw. I always focused on DB mostly and had always good discussions as anyone can check. The issue is political and my aversion to being associated as a criminal.

And lastly, there were no leaps made. It was a serious offense.

On an ultimate point I didn't come here to be remembered or care. I came to discuss DB. Why do you think I've had more than 200 posts only DB focused in years? I came to exchange DB info, not to make a point, which happened now due to this unpleasant act.

[FireFly]

That's... almost the opposite of what's being discussed here. The creators wanted an Asian and an Indian from the getgo, and the studio wanted to force them to make it a white and black guy: that's an example of the studio trying to make the movie LESS diverse and not more diverse.

Kind of wish you said East Asian and Indian because Indians are technically Asian.

I think the (poorly phrased) point that Mireya was trying to make was that black tokenism had happened for a very long time now, arguably to the detriment of other minorities and at the cost of infringing the writer's intent, hence forced black diversity being a bone he had to pick. But he could've phrased it better or used a better example. English doesn't seem to be his first language though.

[Kunzait_83]

...

All right, you're not a person who condones pedophilia. Got it. Check. 10-4.

I'm fairly sure I didn't even think or say that about you in that old thread from 4 years ago either: rather, you were basically in denial about the person being credibly accused of sexual assault and were refusing to listen to basic reason on the subject. And while a lot of the stuff said in that thread does contribute to social attitudes that makes it more difficult for sexual assault survivors to come forward and be believed... I don't have reason to think (then or now) that this was your deliberate, purposeful intention.

And I don't have reason to think this because... I don't know you! We don't know each other!

Lots of times, for lots of people, these shitty attitudes and beliefs about sexual assault (usually pertaining to the verifiably untrue belief that false accusations are WAY more commonplace and widespread than they actually are in reality) are rooted in stupidity, naivete, and ignorance rather than malice (not that there isn't plenty of intentional malice out there too fueling it as well, there most certainly is that also, but that's beside the point here).

I think you said what you said in that thread out of stupidity and ignorance, not out of genuine malice or intent to cause people harm, or to purposefully defend pedophilia.

But lots of times, when stupid people parrot stupid (and false) beliefs about this stuff, it has the unintended effect of making things more difficult and more dangerous, rather than easier and safer, for sexual assault victims.

You don't need to have malicious intent to say or do dumb things that have (unintended by you) terrible consequences for others.

You yourself are even now admitting you were wrong in that thread awhile back: ok then! We have nothing more to disagree about then as far as that issue goes!

I never said - then or now - that your purposeful intent was to defend pedophiles or that you saw pedophilia as a good or not that serious thing. What I said was that your ignorance and lack of thought on the subject of the realities of sexual assault are the sorts of beliefs and views that - intentionally or unintentionally (and in your case, sure, unintentionally) - have made it more needlessly difficult for sexual assault survivors to be believed and seek out help.

So you said some stupid, ignorant shit that's reflective of attitudes that have had (in many - but not all - cases, unintentionally) bad repercussions on how sexual assault victims are perceived and whether or not they're believed.

You know how many other guys in the world this applies to? LOTS. Millions. Hundreds of millions. Possibly maybe billions even. That's how this got to be such a big problem in the first fucking place.

So while you were wrong, you weren't uniquely so, nor were you necessarily being some kind of intentionally evil monster. You were just being what a LOT of guys throughout the whole world have been about this topic for so many years now: stupid, ignorant, myopic, bullheaded, and wrong.

Get in line: you and a zillion other guys the world over. Learn from it, improve, and be better on it going forward. That's all you or any of us can do.

So relax: your non-existent reputation (as no one here knows nor cares who the fuck you are) is fine. No one here (including me) thinks that you're evil or a monster: just dumb.

Anyway, that should be the last I have to say on any of this.


On topic: Dragon Ball... well I don't think Dragon Ball should have been continuing in general at all at this point frankly. But if it insists on continuing regardless, then it should absolutely, definitely have more female fighters who kick more ass and aren't undermined in sexist ways the process.

Diversity isn't "forced" if its what creators and/or the public at large actually wants. And the public clearly wants more diversity, and so do a vast contingent of creators as well. So as far as I'm concerned "forced diversity" is a made-up, non-existent problem.

[Cure Dragon 255]

What if it's her choice not to go fight against the bad guys? Why does a woman need to fight to be a strong character? She was a mother at that point and I can imagine she wanted to stay to be there for her daughter. I actually liked the growth from rebel to family woman.
I also liked her part in the super 17 saga in which she helped defeat Super 17.

None of this characters are real people, they have no more free will than chesspieces. The choice of her not fighting isn't something she made, but something the writer did, and the only reason the writer does it is because 18 is a woman. Kuririn was a father, and he sure didn't choose not to fight the bad guys, so I don't get your point with 18. Why are men allowed to have kids and still be themselves, while the women have to give up on everything that is not directly related to being a mother?

She helping against Super 17 is nice, but it's only a small drop of water for an entire day of walking in a desert

Why do you base 18's/Kuririn' choice for him to fight/ be himself on his gender and subsequently stretch it out towards all men? I find that kind of sexist, actually.

18 May be stronger but what she has in power, she lacks in experience. How many battles against formidable opponents has she been in? She was way overpowered against Trunks/Gohan and the Z-warriors, then she quickly lost against Cell. She had no formal training. Even though she is pretty strong, her lack of battle experience could jeopardize the whole mission.

Kuririn meanwhile has a ton of battle experience, has previously fought alongside Gohan, Vegeta and Goku. They know each other's techniques and can utilize them in a team effort. Based on experience, not gender, it seems like Kuririn is the obvious choice.

Yeah Krillin had a lot of experience being killed and blown up, where would the cast be without him?

[Mireya]

Only pointing out that I don't care what people see me as when I know what I am. What I do care is to be said to be a sexual aggression defender, which you clearly said, and makes you look moronic too. So while I acknowledge I was in the wrong in that thread and reflect upon it, the way you addressed me here, bringing awareness not to the consequences, but to what I defend, was disturbing and made my blood boil. You can't say this. You don't know me. You can call my logic whacky, but not say I was in for sexual aggression and you know this. And I understand perfectly the point about discrediting accusations because it takes their power to speak up and the stats showing how cases like those are still massively unsolved. I acknowledge this now. But what you said touched me deeply and made me crazy because you framed it in a dumb and ridiculous way. Ok, it's over now.

Only as a side note, you framed it in this very thread. Hence why I didn't hold a grudge neither remembered your name and came here form producing DB debates which I love. What you said here was the turning point which made it look like I came to be remembered --- not the case, it happened by a statement that made me hugely upset and angry to a point that... But I came here to discuss DB and not polarize things, ever.

[Koitsukai]

Kind of off-topic, but I wonder how long until getting a female main villain. Like a final boss lady.

Sure, 18 had her run as an appetizer villain-ish, Kale was a pest for a while, Kefla was a hell of an obstacle but nothing more than just another one, and 21 was well-liked but non-existent outside of videogames and DLCs(yeah, Mira, looking at you). I think DBMultiverse is the one that got it best with Son Bra.
Jiren could've been a girl, Maki could've been the Heeter who got wished the strongest instead of Gas, that would've been interesting. I'm not talking about a really strong or well-written female character (although, that should be a given), what I'm going for is a big bad, an overarching villain, the last obstacle before peace.
Freeza could be revealed as being a girl (the problem would be she would just be a girl on paper, nothing else, and I don't care about rebooting that character) or since the fandom is so obsessed with that family, maybe mommy Freeza could be introduced? This one I'd take over Cooler or that Chill guy or Freeza's son... wait, what about a daughter?
I'd really like Goku to fight a woman, but not a silly spar like vs Caulifla or Chichi, I want a deathbattle, I want Geets involved, I want Gohan being unconfortable hitting her until realising she will kill him if he doesn't.

In any case, I don't see this happening any time soon. My prejudice towards older generations tells me a story written by a 70 yo man born and raised in a sexist society won't ever consider women for such a role, probably because seeing them as not capable(?) of being real and more than just pristine creatures. Like those people who are offended by women using curse words they happen to use on a daily basis. But I don't know the guy, so I'm probably way off and should zip it.

However, maybe this Iyoku person is more open-minded, if he manages to produce animated series, who knows if the villain template gets reframed down the line, even if its for spinoffs or side stories. If he knows how to make money, then he will pay more attention to the other 50% of the planet.

TL;DR: I think by 2030, a female main villain could definitely be possible, nowadays I don't think the franchise has thick enough blood to go for it.

[Zephyr]

I'm with this. I'm not against diversity but Dragon Ball has historically handled it in such a bigoted way that I dread it happening with any future characters.

Well, for what little it might be worth, in the Super Hero movie we seem to have gotten a non-racist-caricature black character in the form of Pan's kindergarten teacher:


Is this indicative of Toriyama getting better, editorial suggestion, corporate mandate, or something else entirely? Who knows!

[VegettoEX]

Kind of off-topic, but I wonder how long until getting a female main villain. Like a final boss lady.

I think it's interesting that the games have done this multiple times. Towa is undeniably the 100% "behind the scenes" super master in multiple continuities/stories, and then we got #21 from FighterZ. There are also uhhhhhh those Heroes characters...??? Whose names I'll never remember???

Well, for what little it might be worth, in the Super Hero movie we seem to have gotten a non-racist-caricature black character in the form of Pan's kindergarten teacher:

This continued in the manga adaptation prequel chapters! Really great designs for new characters.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Kind of off-topic, but I wonder how long until getting a female main villain. Like a final boss lady.

I love this post because its one of the best of 2024. The bullshit drama took over the thread so much that people think discussing Inclusivity towards woman is offtopic on the very thread about it. This IS Inclusivity.

[Grimlock]

I think it's interesting that the games have done this multiple times. Towa is undeniably the 100% "behind the scenes" super master in multiple continuities/stories, and then we got #21 from FighterZ. There are also uhhhhhh those Heroes characters...??? Whose names I'll never remember???

Those other Dragon Ball Heroes characters, Putine and Roberu, aren't the main villains, though. But there are also the former Kaioshin of Time, Aeos, and one of the Warriors in Black, Vidro. The two latest female main villains.

What!? In the games female characters don't become housewives in the end? Didn't think that was possible!

[JulieYBM]

Kind of off-topic, but I wonder how long until getting a female main villain. Like a final boss lady.

Mike already pointed out Towa in a previous post, but I have to agree here. It would be really interesting to see the series tackle a female antagonist. It would require a really trustworthy creative team, though.

[Basaku]

In any case, I don't see this happening any time soon. My prejudice towards older generations tells me a story written by a 70 yo man born and raised in a sexist society won't ever consider women for such a role, probably because seeing them as not capable(?) of being real and more than just pristine creatures. Like those people who are offended by women using curse words they happen to use on a daily basis. But I don't know the guy, so I'm probably way off and should zip it.

However, maybe this Iyoku person is more open-minded, if he manages to produce animated series, who knows if the villain template gets reframed down the line, even if its for spinoffs or side stories. If he knows how to make money, then he will pay more attention to the other 50% of the planet.

TL;DR: I think by 2030, a female main villain could definitely be possible, nowadays I don't think the franchise has thick enough blood to go for it.

Well, there's the modern corporate Toei which already showed improvement and awereness in their views and approach, pushing female avatars/characters in games (because *big shock* it SELLS wowz) along with Kale in the main TV show. There's also the gen-millenial Toyatoro, pitching ideas and writing a lot of stuff for modern DB, clearly brought up in a different era than Toriyama

So even if Toriyama may be dragging his feet others involved could be already counter-balancing that.

[DefinitiveDubs]

A note on the idea of "forced diversity":

Nowadays I think a lot of people tend to think of art in terms of it being a product to be bought and sold. When you look at it in that way, you think of it less individually, and moreso how it contributes to the collective consciousness of the public. And in that regard, I understand how frustrating it is when stories don't tend to include LGBT or female characters in leading roles, because in a way it feels like authors are introducing the idea to the public consciousness that those people are lesser, don't exist, or don't matter. Because when you pay for art, you inherently are investing your own expectations into it and are going to think of it more in terms of how it affects you than how it affects the person who made it.

However, it's important to remember that art is the expression of one's self. Their history, their personality, their experiences, and their beliefs. Writers tend to write what they know. Akira Toriyama, a 29-year-old Japanese man in 1984, probably didn't grow up knowing a lot of strong independent women in his life or seeing a lot of them in fiction. When he was imagining the heroes of the story, he probably envisioned them as cool strong men, because the contrary simply isn't something he was familiar with and didn't feel right for him to write at the time.

Likewise, if I was writing a story inspired by below, what happens if I envision the leading protagonist as a straight white male? Or if three out of four of the hero group in the story are straight white males, with the last one being gay?

That's simply how the story and its characters feels to me, in my head, but that's somehow treated as problematic in the modern age. Why DON'T I envision the protagonist as being a person of color, or queer? I don't know, I just don't. Am I supposed to feel bad about it? Going back to the "public consciousness" I mentioned earlier, such a decision is somehow treated as a statement that non-straight white males don't belong in leading roles, or that I don't want those groups in my story, or even that I don't like or support those groups in general. Even though I'm bi leaning towards men, my fiancé is bi leaning towards women, my best friend is black and nonbinary, and women make up 90% of every friendship I've ever had. (Yeah, I know, the "some of my best friends are X" excuse, but what else am I supposed to say?)

Therefore I'm pressured, both internally and externally, to include characteristics that don't align with how I see the character in my head. If I don't, people start to wonder if I'm a TERF, or an incel, or some other ridiculous label. That's what "forced diversity" means to me: the thought that I might be called a bigot just because I might not feel like being all that inclusive or that it might compromise my vision, so I comply because that's what society wants me to do.

Now, you might say "why would it hurt your story? Just include a trans character, it's not hard" but it's not that simple. If I were to include a woman, or an LGBT character, I would want their gender, their identity, or their queerness, to be important and to matter, and to contribute to the story. Yes, trans people exist, but the only way you're going to gain acceptance and understanding from the public (which I assume is the goal) is by educating people, and the only way to educate people is if you go farther than simply letting them know you're there. It bothers me when people are "inclusive" yet it feels like their character is just "one of the guys" and if that character WERE a straight white male, then it would be like nothing changed about them. So if I were to make one of the heroes or villains a woman, for example, then that might radically alter the character's behavior, beliefs, and actions, which might radically alter how the story plays out as a whole. It isn't as simple as flicking a switch in Photoshop to give them boobs.

You might also say "well, you should be more cultured and more experienced with other kinds of people before deciding to write anything" but that honestly seems selfish and unfair. Not everyone can be the next great author, nor do they want to. We're all just trying to make it in this world, which gets harder and harder every year, and we'd prefer to do that by making art about stuff we'd just like to make by default.

[Soppa Saia People]

In what universe are the Japanese teens delinquents and Japanese yokais consider white male protagonists lol, why did you post YYH. Yusuke is aggressively Japanese!

[MasenkoHA]

. When he was imagining the heroes of the story, he probably envisioned them as cool strong white guys,

Lmfao. I'm sorry what? You don't genuinely think the characters in Dragon Ball are white guys? Lmfao. What?

[DefinitiveDubs]

In what universe are the Japanese teens delinquents and Japanese yokais consider white male protagonists lol, why did you post YYH. Yusuke is aggressively Japanese!

I was just making a joke about the gay part. But I was also talking about a story inspired by YYH, not describing YYH itself.

. When he was imagining the heroes of the story, he probably envisioned them as cool strong white guys,

Lmfao. I'm sorry what? You don't genuinely think the characters in Dragon Ball are white guys? Lmfao. What?

I'm sorry, I thought it was a general consensus here that most anime characters has a problem with "white characteristics"? There have been a lot of articles written about how anime favors "fair skin". But yes, you are right. Most of the leading characters in Dragon Ball are...Chinese? Non-descript Asian? I'll edit it to look less bad.