Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Mireya]

What is the issue you are trying to point out here? I don't honestly get it. Are you saying there's a contradiction or bad writing bc a character in the heat of the moment isn't 100 percent logical about a legend he heard when he was a kid?

No, I was interested if the not intent to kill and the thought of SSJ was kind of an oversight of there was some logical explanation for that.

Edit: also, the intent to kill isn't something Vegeta only remembered as a kid. When Goku didn't want to murder Recoome and Jheese, Burta, Vegeta said he can't be the SSJ because of his compassion:

I'm still confused by what you're trying to say here. Are you pointing out a fault in the writing?

Not necessarily saying it's a fault... But an oddity unless there's some logical explanation to it. I just drew attention to it because the realization coming after Vegeta not sensing any killing intention yet mentioning later on such is specific for SSJs comes off, apparently, as contradictory... But still there can be some way to interpret it, idk.

[ABED]

No, I was interested if the not intent to kill and the thought of SSJ was kind of an oversight of there was some logical explanation for that.

Edit: also, the intent to kill isn't something Vegeta only remembered as a kid. When Goku didn't want to murder Recoome and Jheese, Burta, Vegeta said he can't be the SSJ because of his compassion:

I'm still confused by what you're trying to say here. Are you pointing out a fault in the writing?

Not necessarily saying it's a fault... But an oddity unless there's some logical explanation to it. I just drew attention to it because the realization coming after Vegeta not sensing any killing intention yet mentioning later on such is specific for SSJs comes off, apparently, as contradictory... But still there can be some way to interpret it, idk.

It's not a fault and again, his only frame of reference is a legend from over 1000 years ago. It was an oral tradition. He wasn't even sure how to account for Goku's power. He didn't know SSJ came with a physical transformation. You're overthinking this, no offense.

[Mireya]

I'm still confused by what you're trying to say here. Are you pointing out a fault in the writing?

Not necessarily saying it's a fault... But an oddity unless there's some logical explanation to it. I just drew attention to it because the realization coming after Vegeta not sensing any killing intention yet mentioning later on such is specific for SSJs comes off, apparently, as contradictory... But still there can be some way to interpret it, idk.

It's not a fault and again, his only frame of reference is a legend from over 1000 years ago. It was an oral tradition. He wasn't even sure how to account for Goku's power. He didn't know SSJ came with a physical transformation. You're overthinking this, no offense.

You say his only frame of reference is the legend but Vegeta immediately reaches the conclusion Goku wasn't a SSJ right after the fights the quote represents by Goku not wanting to kill... So he took the legend serious and had it on his memory, apparently.

Not knowing what SSJ looks like is one thing, but knowing what doesn't make one (at least in his views) is the important thing here.

[Mireya]

Both stances from the manga, for better clarification:

Spoiler:

The images from the stances for better clarification. Notice that VIZ translated the first panel as "don't feel anger" while the original JP has it as "don't feel killing wish".

The 2nd moment was moments after the first one, when Vegeta realized Goku wasn't a SSJ precisely due to him not killing the Ginyus.

You may want to zoom in the first panel as I've no idea why it was sized this small.

Edit: I actually screwed up since I meant to post the page following the last one posted, but the next page had Vegeta saying Goku was no SSJ due to that, not killing.

[ABED]

Not necessarily saying it's a fault... But an oddity unless there's some logical explanation to it. I just drew attention to it because the realization coming after Vegeta not sensing any killing intention yet mentioning later on such is specific for SSJs comes off, apparently, as contradictory... But still there can be some way to interpret it, idk.

It's not a fault and again, his only frame of reference is a legend from over 1000 years ago. It was an oral tradition. He wasn't even sure how to account for Goku's power. He didn't know SSJ came with a physical transformation. You're overthinking this, no offense.

You say his only frame of reference is the legend but Vegeta immediately reaches the conclusion Goku wasn't a SSJ right after the fights the quote represents by Goku not wanting to kill... So he took the legend serious and had it on his memory, apparently.

Not knowing what SSJ looks like is one thing, but knowing what doesn't make one (at least in his views) is the important thing here.

But he doesn't know. That's the point. It's all conjecture. Again, it's not a fault in writing. People aren't 100 percent logical. They can be forgetful, contradict themselves, etc. in the heat of the moment.

All that stuff about needing to be or becoming cold hearted is framed even within the story as an assumption.

[Mireya]

It's not a fault and again, his only frame of reference is a legend from over 1000 years ago. It was an oral tradition. He wasn't even sure how to account for Goku's power. He didn't know SSJ came with a physical transformation. You're overthinking this, no offense.

You say his only frame of reference is the legend but Vegeta immediately reaches the conclusion Goku wasn't a SSJ right after the fights the quote represents by Goku not wanting to kill... So he took the legend serious and had it on his memory, apparently.

Not knowing what SSJ looks like is one thing, but knowing what doesn't make one (at least in his views) is the important thing here.

But he doesn't know. That's the point. It's all conjecture. Again, it's not a fault in writing. People aren't 100 percent logical. They can be forgetful, contradict themselves, etc. in the heat of the moment.

All that stuff about needing to be or becoming cold hearted is framed even within the story as an assumption.

He doesn't know... But base it off something... Which were the traits highlighted in the quote. So even if he didn't know what was a SSJ, again, he had a thought of how one should be to become one.

It was believed by them, Vegeta specially, who disregarded Goku being one because he wasn't cold hearted. It's not a fleeting and lacking in strength belief he had --- it was shown as a strong one he held to.

Well yeah, but people not being 100 percent logical can be explained under almost any weird writing occurrence.

[Koitsukai]

Funny thing is they all got it wrong, Geets, Ginyu, those saiyans passing on the legend... a SS doesn't need to be a bloodthirsty psychopath as the series proved. As a SS Goku chose not to fight Freeza anymore.

The vicious traits of the SS legend were greatly exaggerated.

[ZeroNeonix]

One thousand years of oral tradition are bound to get some details wrong.

[Mireya]

Koitsukai

Yeah, though I get the impression the perception of Goku's transformation was initially somewhat differently. Kaio indicated that Goku was no longer himself, but rather the warrior of rage, the Super Saiyan. This description may have evolved as the battle progressed, and Akira Toriyama might have altered his perspective on it. Nonetheless, Freeza explicitly mentioned a pure heart awakening through rage – a sentiment that contradicted Vegeta's belief in what was essential for becoming a Super Saiyan.

Despite Vegeta:s belief being subverted though, he did still achieve this transformation, suggesting that a pure heart might not be an absolute requirement. Unless interpreted literally as pure evil, Vegeta's statement seemed more like a jest imo. As per the manga, the only apparent prerequisites are possessing the potential, surpassing one's normal limits, and experiencing intense rage. Though notably, Goten and Trunks transformed without apparent rage, with Goten even stating he couldn't recall the reason – implying a more casual occurrence for him, which would be unlikely in a moment of rage.

I'd say some individuals gifted with Saiyan heritage, particularly those whose parents were already Super Saiyans (Vegeta is debatable), seem to have an advantage, suggesting that the fundamental requirement may not be as rigid as initially believed, at least for them though, with the reason above being possible as an explanation. Does this, in any way, tie back to the "S cells" Toriyama mentioned in an interview? I barely remember what he told there, just some details and words, like the peace of Earth as helping too... A peaceful place helping may be in regards to contrast with the rage in a stronger way, perhaps... Dunno.

ZeroNeonix

Sure, but again, Vegeta later emphasized this detail, underscoring its significance. It's possible that Toriyama associated the Super Saiyan, from Vegeta's perspective, with mercilessness, providing a rationale for why Goku wouldn't embody this transformation, despite Vegeta's earlier assertion or acknowledging it as a strong possibly despite seeing no desire for killing...

[FortuneSSJ]

The fan manga Dragon Ball Kakumei is too good!
The art is godlike and story is better than what we've been having. Really like what they are doing with U6 Saiyans, in particular with their king.

[jjgp1112]

Not necessarily saying it's a fault... But an oddity unless there's some logical explanation to it. I just drew attention to it because the realization coming after Vegeta not sensing any killing intention yet mentioning later on such is specific for SSJs comes off, apparently, as contradictory... But still there can be some way to interpret it, idk.

It's not a fault and again, his only frame of reference is a legend from over 1000 years ago. It was an oral tradition. He wasn't even sure how to account for Goku's power. He didn't know SSJ came with a physical transformation. You're overthinking this, no offense.

You say his only frame of reference is the legend but Vegeta immediately reaches the conclusion Goku wasn't a SSJ right after the fights the quote represents by Goku not wanting to kill... So he took the legend serious and had it on his memory, apparently.

Not knowing what SSJ looks like is one thing, but knowing what doesn't make one (at least in his views) is the important thing here.

It's because in Vegeta's mind a Super Saiyan must have embodied everything savage and vicious about the Saiyan race and so somebody as gentle as Goku couldn't have fit the bill.

[Mireya]

It's not a fault and again, his only frame of reference is a legend from over 1000 years ago. It was an oral tradition. He wasn't even sure how to account for Goku's power. He didn't know SSJ came with a physical transformation. You're overthinking this, no offense.

You say his only frame of reference is the legend but Vegeta immediately reaches the conclusion Goku wasn't a SSJ right after the fights the quote represents by Goku not wanting to kill... So he took the legend serious and had it on his memory, apparently.

Not knowing what SSJ looks like is one thing, but knowing what doesn't make one (at least in his views) is the important thing here.

It's because in Vegeta's mind a Super Saiyan must have embodied everything savage and vicious about the Saiyan race and so somebody as gentle as Goku couldn't have fit the bill.

Yes, but he thought Goku could be the SSJ when saw him arriving and noticed he didn't feel any desire to kill from Goku.

[Civic]

The Bojack movie is a better movie than I remember. It fits into the anime timeline perfectly and even gives a possible explanation for why Vegeta starts fighting again. Great animation and the tournament at the start is a lot of fun.

[TobyS]

The Bojack movie is a better movie than I remember. It fits into the anime timeline perfectly and even gives a possible explanation for why Vegeta starts fighting again. Great animation and the tournament at the start is a lot of fun.

Goku breaks the afterlife because of Toei wank but can't overstay even though he has a day pass and a universal threat in the Boo Arc.
Tenshinhan says after the Cell games that he will probably never see him again and Gohan qoutes this and can't recruit him for the tournament in the buu arc as a result.
Trunks says he hasn't been back since Cell, this one has a little wiggle room but the other two don't.
Also Kaiosama doesn't know or warn them ahead of time that Bojack is lose? Come on. It's silly.

[Cure Dragon 255]

The Bojack movie is a better movie than I remember. It fits into the anime timeline perfectly and even gives a possible explanation for why Vegeta starts fighting again. Great animation and the tournament at the start is a lot of fun.

Goku breaks the afterlife because of Toei wank but can't overstay even though he has a day pass and a universal threat in the Boo Arc.
Tenshinhan says after the Cell games that he will probably never see him again and Gohan qoutes this and can't recruit him for the tournament in the buu arc as a result.
Trunks says he hasn't been back since Cell, this one has a little wiggle room but the other two don't.
Also Kaiosama doesn't know or warn them ahead of time that Bojack is lose? Come on. It's silly.

Wait wait WHAT? When was this said. Was this canon? Or Toei made up? WHAT

[MasenkoHA]

.
Also Kaiosama doesn't know or warn them ahead of time that Bojack is lose? Come on. It's silly.

For this one Kaio didn't seem aware that Bojack was freed until he and Goku saw him on earth crashing the tournament. Seemed like he only just deduced that his dying weakened the seal he and the other Kaios put over Bojack and it wasn’t knowledge he had prior.


As far as Goku breaking the rules of the afterlife, that's more cheesy shonen Power of Love and Friendship ex machina than a continuity error. It's dumb as hell but I don't think it forces the movie out of continuity.

[super michael]

The Bojack movie is a better movie than I remember. It fits into the anime timeline perfectly and even gives a possible explanation for why Vegeta starts fighting again. Great animation and the tournament at the start is a lot of fun.

Goku breaks the afterlife because of Toei wank but can't overstay even though he has a day pass and a universal threat in the Boo Arc.
Tenshinhan says after the Cell games that he will probably never see him again and Gohan qoutes this and can't recruit him for the tournament in the buu arc as a result.
Trunks says he hasn't been back since Cell, this one has a little wiggle room but the other two don't.
Also Kaiosama doesn't know or warn them ahead of time that Bojack is lose? Come on. It's silly.

Wait wait WHAT? When was this said. Was this canon? Or Toei made up? WHAT

Tenshinhan mentioned that they won't see him again in chapter 419. This is after Cell defeat in Kami Lookout, after Kuririn makes his wish to remove C17 and C18 bomb.

Chapter 426 Gohan is going around asking the Z fighters if they want to join the tournament, however Gohan states that he can't find Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu to himself in the air. This is after Vegeta wants to join the tournament and Goku speaks from otherworld.

[Lukmendes]

Tenshinhan says after the Cell games that he will probably never see him again and Gohan qoutes this and can't recruit him for the tournament in the buu arc as a result.

To be fair, it just seems that Tien just joined the tournament, in Buu saga Gohan just didn't seem to know where Tien was living, so that can work well enough.

Trunks says he hasn't been back since Cell, this one has a little wiggle room but the other two don't.

Chapters 419 and 420 make it clear that Trunks is coming back to the past, which could line up with Bojack's movies events, though, that doesn't explain why his hair is suddenly much longer.

Wait wait WHAT? When was this said. Was this canon? Or Toei made up? WHAT

Chapter 418, after they made the wishes to Shenlong and 18 had that tsundere moment.

Chapter 426 is when Gohan comments he doesn't know where Tien is.

[Hellspawn28]

Also Kaiosama doesn't know or warn them ahead of time that Bojack is lose? Come on. It's silly.

North Kai said that he and the other kais help seal him up years ago? How can they if they are weaker than Nappa? Unless Bojack has been training inside of North Kai's planet.

[Lukmendes]

North Kai said that he and the other kais help seal him up years ago? How can they if they are weaker than Nappa? Unless Bojack has been training inside of North Kai's planet.

Sealing in DB isn't exactly related to power levels, Mutaito was able to seal king Piccolo inside a rice cooker despite being far weaker.

Though the difference between Mutaito and king Piccolo is not even close to the difference between any of the Kaios and Bojack, so it's a wonder they managed to do it at all... But then again, considering Bojack was sealed within a star, it wasn't in just any place that him and his gang were sealed, at least.