Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 101 - Official Discussion Thread

[VegettoEX]

Honest question, why not?

Is it because the "DEEBEEZEE" fans would like it and you have a need to feel "superior" to them?

Why on Earth are you framing it back at me like this? I'm sorry if I ran over your pet, or something!!!

But seriously, it's just not interesting a premise at all to me. I think it's fascinating that the rematches we DO get in the series-proper (that is to say, original serialization) are:

- Largely played for humor and low-stakes (see: Goku vs. Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai)
- Largely... not even shown at all (see: Goku vs. Majin Vegeta, which folks think of more in the anime than the manga)

Going beyond that and sticking with Goku vs. Vegeta, I think to Toriyama's outline for Dragon Ball Online where they fuck off into space and no-one sees anything of the fight except the leftover light from an explosion.

I'm all aboard Toriyama's train of thought there. Rematches aren't necessary, and Toriyama himself is far more interested in using the next character/antagonist/villain as the ever-moving goalpost. He actually keeps taking them FURTHER away from us! I think that's quaint, neat, and quintissential Dragon Ball.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else, but this really has nothing to do with this chapter of Dragon Ball Super at all! Brining this train back on track a little bit, I guess I'm pretty apathetic and excited and ambivalent all together here? I'm just as ready and excited as anyone to see what's "next" on the horizon for a potential story arc, but I'm also just as fascinated with seeing where Toyo can take an extended version of this story. I really liked the characters and writing from the film itself, which I thought were (mostly!) spot-the-fuck-on, and infinitely more so than just about everything post-Battle of Gods (film specifically)... so I'll take a little more time with them, sure!

But then that also kinda equals out and negates the "what's next?" excitement, wrapping it all together in a bunch of mostly just keeping my head down, checking out what comes out, nodding along with it, poking over to the Meteor Mission manga, nodding along with it as well, and just plugging away at stuff!

[Lukmendes]

Y'know thinking of it, considering how slow Toyotaro's arcs are this will last for a while, and we'll probably still have the Super manga being published alongside Daima... Which is kind of a funny situation for two different DB brands to be active at the same time.

[Basaku]

Y'know thinking of it, considering how slow Toyotaro's arcs are this will last for a while, and we'll probably still have the Super manga being published alongside Daima... Which is kind of a funny situation for two different DB brands to be active at the same time.

Well, we already had SD, Heroes (even Heroes anime/manga!) running cocurrently to Super so it's not THAT unusual I guess. But Toei's definitely treating Daima as the more 'mainline' product. Although if it's still suppoused to be just a one-off anniversary mini-series then even moreso there's no reason to cancel/stop Super manga if Daima "era" is only gonna last for a year or so

This whole Super Hero arc dragging more and more just make me even more convinced that all this absolutely IS getting animated/retelled in Super 2 (assuming Super 2 happens of course). Everything in Super manga post-Broly just starts to feel more like a groundwork/outline/extensive storyboard more suited for a potential anime adaptation structure rather than something appropirate for the monthly manga format. From the lenght of Moro/Granolah arcs to the extensive "filler" sections for the Super Hero movie. Especially compared to what the manga used to be, as in a rushed-promo for the anime. Maybe the plan really is/was to get the manga done and then adapt it all at once into the anime continuation. In that sense it would be beneficial to have a bigger/more comprehensive source material

[Cipher]

Wondering if this'll be a one-chapter comedic epilogue or something.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Wondering if this'll be a one-chapter comedic epilogue or something.

Maybe, but depending on how desperate, determined, and resourceful Carmine and 15 are going to be portrayed as, it could quite easily go beyond that. It seems clear enough that the Big Boys (Gohan and Piccolo) are done for the arc and we're back interacting with the stuff that Goten and Trunks are doing as the Saiyamen, so there are some obvious alternatives:

• We could easily go the Go! Go! Ackman route with a succession of abortive gag attempts to get even with the main protagonist(s), if we're just going brief (we could drag in a succession of comic no-hopers, like obsolete Gero Androids, Tao Pai Pai, etc., etc.); or
• If we're going longer, there's scope to touch off a smaller (more typically Dragon Ball-style) escalation that sticks around the lower level Goten and Trunks inhabit without grabbing the attention of the bigger boys.
• Or, of course, we could do one then the other.

If I had to guess, I'd say there are at least a few more Chapters in the offing here, if only because if we just had a 1-chapter buffer between the "true end" of the arc and the next one, I'd still expect to have heard at least something teasing what's coming next - even the idea that there is something different coming up - but there doesn't seem to be any indication of that even though there have been three excellent opportunities to hype The Next Story if it were imminent (at Jump Festa and at each part of the New Year Interview with Toyotarou).

Moreover, even with this Chapter tacked on, it's a pretty short arc by post-Anime Super Standards; another 10ish Chapters would make it rather more like the two arcs that have come before it, in that respect. If they hook back in to a more (semi-)serious escalation dynamic and do more with covering Pan's development, and or something with Goku/Vegeta/Broly into the bargain, I could easily see the arc extending to November, to end for next Jump Festa. Or if not quite that long, to line up neatly with Daima's release.

[Lukmendes]

Well, we already had SD, Heroes (even Heroes anime/manga!) running cocurrently to Super so it's not THAT unusual I guess. But Toei's definitely treating Daima as the more 'mainline' product. Although if it's still suppoused to be just a one-off anniversary mini-series then even moreso there's no reason to cancel/stop Super manga if Daima "era" is only gonna last for a year or so

I was thinking about mainline products, but I completely had forgotten about Heroes lol.

This whole Super Hero arc dragging more and more just make me even more convinced that all this absolutely IS getting animated/retelled in Super 2 (assuming Super 2 happens of course). Everything in Super manga post-Broly just starts to feel more like a groundwork/outline/extensive storyboard more suited for a potential anime adaptation structure rather than something appropirate for the monthly manga format. From the lenght of Moro/Granolah arcs to the extensive "filler" sections for the Super Hero movie. Especially compared to what the manga used to be, as in a rushed-promo for the anime. Maybe the plan really is/was to get the manga done and then adapt it all at once into the anime continuation. In that sense it would be beneficial to have a bigger/more comprehensive source material

I think part of the reason things started to slow down is because Toyotaro was telling stories that weren't part of Super's anime, so there were less reasons to rush through Toriyama's plot points, and with seemingly no other version of a story he could use the manga for a more complete version, so to say.

Though, who knows, slowing down a story for the sake of an anime adaptation is also possible, but it'd honestly be kinda stupid to do that, because BoF and RoF both got painfully slow adaptations, and stuff like the Z anime shows how much you can slow down a story... So hurting the manga for the sake of an adaptation is honestly pretty questionable, specially since both anime and manga are telling very different versions of the same story since Super's beginning.

[goku the krump dancer]

I am curious about this new Android 15’s design. Thought the first one was hilarious.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I am curious about this new Android 15’s design. Thought the first one was hilarious.

Unfortunately for that interpretation (I got caught by it for a Hot Minute myself!), the Chapter title isn't referring to Android 15, but rather to Red Ribbon Army mook Number 15 (the one who accompanies Piccolo and gets beaten up by Pan when he tries to kidnap her, and gets terrified into submission when he tries to coerce Gohan).

It would be fun to get some as-yet-unseen Androids though, whether old Gero models or some Hedo Alpha/Beta series models.

[goku the krump dancer]

Ooooooh, I didnt even know that guy had a name.. but i've only watched Super Hero once, so theres that too lol.

[picc]

I don't care what's in the new chapter as long as it's new.

[Dbzfan94]

Please focus more on Goten this time around

Agree. As a Goten fan I was really disappointed when Trunks got 95% of the moments and characterization. Goten really didn’t have a single moment to himself that wasn’t with Trunks or involving him.

[Basaku]

I think part of the reason things started to slow down is because Toyotaro was telling stories that weren't part of Super's anime, so there were less reasons to rush through Toriyama's plot points, and with seemingly no other version of a story he could use the manga for a more complete version, so to say.

Though, who knows, slowing down a story for the sake of an anime adaptation is also possible, but it'd honestly be kinda stupid to do that, because BoF and RoF both got painfully slow adaptations, and stuff like the Z anime shows how much you can slow down a story... So hurting the manga for the sake of an adaptation is honestly pretty questionable, specially since both anime and manga are telling very different versions of the same story since Super's beginning.

Yeah there are multiple angles to look at it and it's hard to tell what they really want/aim for/plan anymore. It made sense to slow things down post-TOP but then the whole Super Hero adaptation era (including the prologue and epilogue) threw our speculations for an ever bigger loop. Especially with previous movie manga adaptations being either rushed (BOG), incomplete (separate ROF volume) or 1-pagers (ROF & Broly).

Ohh well. Hopefully the upcoming Epilogue in chapter 101 (and 102, 103?) is good enough and develops Goten more. If not and if it's just more of the same as in Prologue then they should keep it short and just transition to the next arc swiftly. 'Cause as much as some ppl may enjoy it (me includes), there's no denying that the glacial pace of SH adaptation is turning off a lot of fans

[Mac]

I like Super stepping away from constant Goku/Vegeta, I've been bored of them for years. Nice to see the rest of the cast.

[OLKv3]

Eventful chapter this month, but still doesn't move the plot along

[Hugo Boss]

I like Super stepping away from constant Goku/Vegeta, I've been bored of them for years. Nice to see the rest of the cast.

From what I’ve heard, Goku and Vegeta will appear a lot in this chapter. And Broly too. It’s just not solely focused on them.

Edit: Apparently the whole chapter has leaked, but I will refrain myself from saying anything about it until the official release.

[Lukmendes]

Agree. As a Goten fan I was really disappointed when Trunks got 95% of the moments and characterization. Goten really didn’t have a single moment to himself that wasn’t with Trunks or involving him.

It's honestly kinda funny how Trunks consistent is the most developed character while Goten is just his tag along lol.

Yeah there are multiple angles to look at it and it's hard to tell what they really want/aim for/plan anymore. It made sense to slow things down post-TOP but then the whole Super Hero adaptation era (including the prologue and epilogue) threw our speculations for an ever bigger loop. Especially with previous movie manga adaptations being either rushed (BOG), incomplete (separate ROF volume) or 1-pagers (ROF & Broly).

Maybe part of the reason Super Hero got a direct adaptation because Toyotaro made a few changes related to Goten and Trunks, so he made that mini arc before Super Hero, added them in it, is making another possibly mini arc after it, so having them be around with these modifications to Super Hero looks more organic.

Ohh well. Hopefully the upcoming Epilogue in chapter 101 (and 102, 103?) is good enough and develops Goten more. If not and if it's just more of the same as in Prologue then they should keep it short and just transition to the next arc swiftly. 'Cause as much as some ppl may enjoy it (me includes), there's no denying that the glacial pace of SH adaptation is turning off a lot of fans

Honestly compared to Moro's and Granola's the pacing is better, but, yeah, still not good... But honestly, at this point I just stop reading it for a few months and just binge read, that makes it less painful (Although, Moro and Granola were so bad that I noticed how slow it was even when binge reading...).

[Basaku]

Honestly compared to Moro's and Granola's the pacing is better, but, yeah, still not good... But honestly, at this point I just stop reading it for a few months and just binge read, that makes it less painful (Although, Moro and Granola were so bad that I noticed how slow it was even when binge reading...).

Binging sure is more enjoyable. I followed Moro monthly but got to read Granolah in 1 go and it was a night-and-day experience. Although it's a disscusion on its own how much story progress/developement should each montly chapter contain to avoid feeling like a drag. IMO Toyo simply doesn't do enough in this aspect. The base story outlines are good, but there should be at least 2x as much PLOT and progression to get from the start to finish of the general outline than what we're getting.

If we go back to the Namek/Cell era, and say, compile 3-4 weekly chapters into one there would be HELLA ton more plot progression vs how much Toyo's been injecting into Moro/Granolah monthly chapters. There just isn't enough happening. The number of alliance changes, twists, turns, new character/villains introductions and concurrent plots involving different characters all happening at once during Namek or Android sagas trump the equivalent page count in Moro/Granolah arcs. Granolah arc in particular feels very small-scale, following almost exclusively just Goku & Vegeta's perspective, DESPITE actually dealing with the biggest galaxy-spanning and interconnected story the franchise saw since the Saiayn/Freeza sagas. It has all the 'ingridients' of the grand epic akin to the Saiyan saga yet feels so much more limited at the same time, as if there wasn't enough budget for the secondary unit filming different characters involved in the same story.

Same with Moro. The whole 73 absorption moment should've been a mid-season pause in the story and vastly expanded. When re-reding in 1 go, Moro's arc feels even less developed than Buu's did.

[Lukmendes]

Binging sure is more enjoyable. I followed Moro monthly but got to read Granolah in 1 go and it was a night-and-day experience. Although it's a disscusion on its own how much story progress/developement should each montly chapter contain to avoid feeling like a drag. IMO Toyo simply doesn't do enough in this aspect. The base story outlines are good, but there should be at least 2x as much PLOT and progression to get from the start to finish of the general outline than what we're getting.

If we go back to the Namek/Cell era, and say, compile 3-4 weekly chapters into one there would be HELLA ton more plot progression vs how much Toyo's been injecting into Moro/Granolah monthly chapters. There just isn't enough happening. The number of alliance changes, twists, turns, new character/villains introductions and concurrent plots involving different characters all happening at once during Namek or Android sagas trump the equivalent page count in Moro/Granolah arcs. Granolah arc in particular feels very small-scale, following almost exclusively just Goku & Vegeta's perspective, DESPITE actually dealing with the biggest galaxy-spanning and interconnected story the franchise saw since the Saiayn/Freeza sagas. It has all the 'ingridients' of the grand epic akin to the Saiyan saga yet feels so much more limited at the same time, as if there wasn't enough budget for the secondary unit filming different characters involved in the same story.

Same with Moro. The whole 73 absorption moment should've been a mid-season pause in the story and vastly expanded. When re-reding in 1 go, Moro's arc feels even less developed than Buu's did.

Yeah re-reading Toriyama's arcs, it's absurd just how much is going on at times, even when an entire chapter is nothing more than a two minutes scene, there may still be plenty going on there that advances the story in some way.

Toyotaro by comparison just has stuff made to end on a cliffhanger, and doesn't do a good job at making it reach that point, or the next chapter not living up to what the cliffhanger implied (Like Moro's wish to Porunga being just "free the other prisoners from the galaxy prison" or Bardock's method of defeating Gas being essentially "hit him harder than before") on top of having fights that just aren't interesting enough that long overstay their welcome.

So yeah, DBS manga feels off to read monthly since there's generally not enough going on in a single chapter to be interesting, but even when binge reading, it still has a bunch of other issues with how the story is being told, and can feel like an empty DBZ movie.

To defend him a bit, he's not the only one who suffers from this, way too many manga out there where chapter after chapter are just nothingburgers, the industry is rough to work at and all, and that just makes a worse product with how much overworking there is, and it's a miracle that Toriyama had actually good pacing at times while also being overworked.

[FortuneSSJ]

Saw some leaks. I was skeptical when I saw the title "Carmine and Nº15", but looks like it's gonna be a great chapter and surely better than any of the retelling ones.

[Basaku]

on top of having fights that just aren't interesting enough that long overstay their welcome.

Ohhh this this this! I think it's one of the main aspects that bother me. Back in peak Freeza/Cell sagas a fight could also mean Bulma sneaking out to do something else and completly change the plot mid-way through the fight. Or Krillin destroying the remote controller. With Moro/Granolah, I found myself often just quickly glancing at combat panels and skipping to the dialogues as I never expected anything interesting to happen during the fights, just a fight for the sake of a fight. Might have been well drawn as Toyo improved a lot, but still nothing more.

To defend him a bit, he's not the only one who suffers from this, way too many manga out there where chapter after chapter are just nothingburgers, the industry is rough to work at and all, and that just makes a worse product with how much overworking there is, and it's a miracle that Toriyama had actually good pacing at times while also being overworked.

Yup. Which is why I couldn't phantom some... YouTubers complaining that Toyo took like 2 month vacation or something. Like literally WTF. This is entertainment business and cartoons, nobody's working overtime here to secure "world peace". And even world peace negotiators SHOULD have vacations too...

Saw some leaks.

FortuneSSJ, have I mentioned how smart, handsome and amazing you are and that my PM box is wide open, hot and ready?