Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

You mean the Zenkai boosts the saiyans stopped having after the Namek saga?

Where was this "Saiyan adaptation" for Future Gohan after getting his ass kicked by the androids for 10+ years?

So #17 didn't notice when the entire human race was genocided instantly by Super Buu?

No? I mean this:

I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

Future Trunks simply made the gap smaller each time he fought Black. Future Gohan also did that but got killed before he could surpass the androids.

No, he didn't. Why would he? He works in a remote island and can't sense Ki. Why are people always ignoring this when complaining about why 17 never fought Boo?

[Hugo Boss]

Also in Super Hero the reason he was brought to Beerus' planet was because Freeza still wanted to recruit him, but in the manga continuity this doesn't make sense since he has his Black Freeza transformation.

It’s possible that Freeza is planning on recruiting strong warriors to defeat Beerus and whoever stands on his way. Combining his strength with Broly’s, I assume Freeza would have a strategic power advantage over Beerus, Goku and Vegeta, since Whis is supposed to be neutral.

[Miracles]

Well considering Black Freeza is essentially a glorified fan fiction transformation it's no real surprise he's weaker than Beerus.

At any rate as far as Toriyama is concerned Broly > Beerus >= SSJB Goku and Vegeta fighting as a team.

Spoiler:

But as the manga version of DBS SH essentially adopted Toriyama's power scale the manga has broken itself in half.


While not strictly strength related there is no good reason for DBS manga Goku the "Ultra Instinct Specialist" to be confused as to how staying relaxed during a fight would be benefit to one's fighting style.


The DBS Manga didn't really fix much about the garbage writing from DBS SH. Goku has been retconned to absolute idiot who isn't even on the right track to attain "Ultra Instinct" just like Toriyama's Goku.


Cope as much as you want but there's no reason for Beerus to have such a reaction to Broly's presence on his planet if he can "one shot him" lmao.

When Beerus shits himself because of Zeno's presence everyone agrees it's because Zeno is more powerful than him. With Broly it's the same thing.

Also in Super Hero the reason he was brought to Beerus' planet was because Freeza still wanted to recruit him, but in the manga continuity this doesn't make sense since he has his Black Freeza transformation.

Dragon Ball Super's power scaling is so outright nonsensical and terrible that now we're having users peddle their blatant head canon as fact in order to make sense of this trash writing:

Yo, did you not read where it says in Super Hero that Beerus is said to be the most feared entity in the universe?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The only assumption we would have to make here is that TOP UI was of the last resort UI type, but was too short lived and inefficient to show the full scope of UI's abilities due to Goku's lack of training.

I’m not convinced by it. Nothing points to that version being stronger than the ones that appeared later. I think it’s good idea to suggest that Goku has a ultimate move that he can only access with a specific condition though.

By the way, Zombie Gas was theoretically above Goku in this giant avatar state, and Black Freeza was above him. So, you might have to revise your chains.

Something has to give though since Frieza is simply portrayed as inferior to the Hakaishin in a general sense, not just Beerus. It seems obvious that Frieza isn't shotting Belmod. It doesn't track as a possibility. I'm not aware of anything that puts Gas above the UI avatar. If the wish alone is the basis for it, then he should've been stronger than UI avatar even before he zombified, but he wasn't. The wish still works within the limitations of the fighter.

The wish also doesn't necessarily give the fighter the most raw power. Being the "strongest" is more so holistic, simply enabling them to be capable of defeating anyone. So the UI avatar can still be above any version of Gas, but since Goku can't maintain that state long enough to beat Gas, it doesn't necessarily contradict the wish.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not aware of anything that puts Gas above the UI avatar. If the wish alone is the basis for it, then he should've been stronger than UI avatar even before he zombified, but he wasn't. The wish still works within the limitations of the fighter.

The wish also doesn't necessarily give the fighter the most raw power. Being the "strongest" is more so holistic, simply enabling them to be capable of defeating anyone. So the UI avatar can still be above any version of Gas, but since Goku can't maintain that state long enough to beat Gas, it doesn't necessarily contradict the wish.

Gas supposedly achieved his “strongest in the universe” position when he controlled his inner instincts, but after Goku surpassed him, Gas started to circumvent it, basically an ability that he acquired because of the wish. The zombiefication is a result of him adapting to any situation that challenged his position, including Goku and Granolah’s ultimate moves. Black Freeza though was beyond his scope.

[Torus silvè]

I think people are getting mixed up between the movie and the manga. Jiren is still stronger in the movie, in the manga Vegeta just says they lost in the past. I think the way I had it before makes the most sense.

Hakai powered Beerus > Freeza > Goku > Jiren > "Base" Beerus.

Beerus pretty much taught Vegeta UE. UI Goku being weakened sorta makes sense, but the evidence is pretty weak. Jiren being weakened is totally made up.

#17 only scraps with SS2 and 3

Goku says 17 is almost as strong as himself. Nowhere to run here, Toriyama really wanted 17 to be SSJB level.

Jiren being weakened is not made up.

Goku Strikes Jiren is the exact same Spot Granola struck him (in hia vitals). This caused Goku to lose so much power that he couldn't turn MUI for like 2 chapters straight, and thats after he healed himself.

In chapter 41, Toyotaro dedicates 2 whole pages to show you that even a weakened Base Vegeta can dodge Jiren's attack at close range, after MUI Goku dodges this attack. This attack is aimed at MUI Goku, Goku dodges, then Vegeta notices the same attack after Goku has left, and then he dodges. Goku and Vegeta are like a few metres apart.

MUI Goku also doesn't notice Jiren using the Namek Goku Efficiency technique either. On Namek Gohan and Krillin couldn't detect Goku's full Power on Namek. Gohan and Krillin at this time are weaker than Ginyu Goku (PL of 23,000).

Since Goku didn't detect Jiren doing this technique there must be a comparable gap to Jiren's true full power.

Jiren's full power is lightning aura Jiren, and he doesn't release this until after he is weakened to like Base Vegeta level. Bear in mind a non serious Jiren is casually above Blue evolution Vegeta.

[Mr Baggins]

Welp, called it again: Broly doesn't have access to his full power or even Super Saiyan, although the Japanese dialogue is a little clearer about that fact.

[ZombieVito]

How exactly is SS Vegeta fighting base Broly that well?

Base Broly is stronger than SSG since Ikari is only a 10 times boost (Oozaru power) and he wasn't that far off of SSB Goku in the movie with it.

[Issei189]

How exactly is SS Vegeta fighting base Broly that well?

Base Broly is stronger than SSG since Ikari is only a 10 times boost (Oozaru power) and he wasn't that far off of SSB Goku in the movie with it.

Vegeta did have a considerable boost in his base form after his spirit control training and then there was his training under Beerus b/w the Moro saga and the Granola arc, so i will assume him and Goku are now close to base Broly in their Super Saiyan forms.

[Koitsukai]

That's not Ikari Broly, though. His hair is normal, Ikari Broly has spikier hair, and different eyes. I don't believe Broly is using that pre-Ikari, yellow-ish eyes thing he did vs Vegeta in the movie, either.

If there's any power conclusion to take from this is that the gap remains the same, SS Vegeta is too much for regular Broly like in the movie, or perhaps that gap is smaller now, Broly held his own decently... maybe if he is using his legendary instincts, then maaaybe you could say SS Vegeta can now easily deal with the in-between base and Ikari Broly that prompted him to go SSG. But I haven't seen his ragey eyes so far.

[Yuji]

I know all promotional material points towards Beast being stronger than UI and UE but the fact that Gohan can whip it out so casually can maybe indicate that it's not as strong. Toyotaro likes to give the strongest forms some sort of handicap and it doesn't seem like Beast has one yet, so from a narrative point of view it doesn't fit into the deus ex machina last-second power-up to save the day role the same way silver-haired UI does. It wouldn't be coherent with Super tradition to have the strongest form so readily available for any future opponent. Gohan gets to have a stronger form than Goku and Vegeta's with zero difficulty in activation or mastery?

But I guess we may get some answers next month.

[Jack Bz]

I know all promotional material points towards Beast being stronger than UI and UE but the fact that Gohan can whip it out so casually can maybe indicate that it's not as strong. Toyotaro likes to give the strongest forms some sort of handicap and it doesn't seem like Beast has one yet, so from a narrative point of view it doesn't fit into the deus ex machina last-second power-up to save the day role the same way silver-haired UI does. It wouldn't be coherent with Super tradition to have the strongest form so readily available for any future opponent. Gohan gets to have a stronger form than Goku and Vegeta's with zero difficulty in activation or mastery?

But I guess we may get some answers last month.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that it will have stamina issues

[ZombieVito]

How exactly is SS Vegeta fighting base Broly that well?

Base Broly is stronger than SSG since Ikari is only a 10 times boost (Oozaru power) and he wasn't that far off of SSB Goku in the movie with it.

Vegeta did have a considerable boost in his base form after his spirit control training and then there was his training under Beerus b/w the Moro saga and the Granola arc, so i will assume him and Goku are now close to base Broly in their Super Saiyan forms.

This assumes Broly hasn't gotten stronger in 3 years and I find that hard to believe.

Also that's a considerable gap Vegeta managed to make smaller. It makes Beerus > Goku/Vegeta even more ridiculous.

[Koitsukai]

According to Bulma, Beast has surpassed them. Sure, she hasn't seen UI or UE, unless Geets thinks it as an aphrodisiac, but that line is there for a reason. I'm ok buying he's the strongest around, I doubt we'll get a more clear power level statement.

Maybe Beast is the current big thing, available at the drop of the hat, so it can be destroyed by the next villain, without having Goku losing again.

[pepd]

I know all promotional material points towards Beast being stronger than UI and UE but the fact that Gohan can whip it out so casually can maybe indicate that it's not as strong. Toyotaro likes to give the strongest forms some sort of handicap and it doesn't seem like Beast has one yet, so from a narrative point of view it doesn't fit into the deus ex machina last-second power-up to save the day role the same way silver-haired UI does. It wouldn't be coherent with Super tradition to have the strongest form so readily available for any future opponent. Gohan gets to have a stronger form than Goku and Vegeta's with zero difficulty in activation or mastery?

But I guess we may get some answers last month.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that it will have stamina issues

please not again x.x My guess would've been that it was going to require an emotional state that would not make it always available, but given that it seems that he can use it freely, I think they will just have him be as strong as he is without major weakness and just have Gokuu and Vegeta surpass him.

[ZombieVito]

According to Bulma, Beast has surpassed them. Sure, she hasn't seen UI or UE, unless Geets thinks it as an aphrodisiac, but that line is there for a reason. I'm ok buying he's the strongest around, I doubt we'll get a more clear power level statement.

Maybe Beast is the current big thing, available at the drop of the hat, so it can be destroyed by the next villain, without having Goku losing again.

We already have Toriyama saying Gohan is the strongest.

It was also quite evident when Orange Piccolo was already said to rival Goku.

[picc]

According to Bulma, Beast has surpassed them. Sure, she hasn't seen UI or UE, unless Geets thinks it as an aphrodisiac, but that line is there for a reason. I'm ok buying he's the strongest around, I doubt we'll get a more clear power level statement.

Maybe Beast is the current big thing, available at the drop of the hat, so it can be destroyed by the next villain, without having Goku losing again.

Yeah this is my guess, Gohan has surpassed them in raw power but Goku, who undoubtedly showed up just to fight him, will ask to spar and defeat him based on control of his TUI form or experience or something.

[picc]

As for Broly, he doesn't have permanent access to the power he got during the movie, his base form is still relatively the same. His PL seems to rise diametrically with his anger, so the more he controls himself, the less explosive his boosts will be but the more permanent they'll be.

I suspect he'll be slowly forcing Vegeta into stronger forms over the next few chapters, with the slowness of the growth counteracted by him keeping the gains. Until eventually he reaches SSJ and is likely at the level of their ultra forms.

[QuakingStar]

Vegeta didn't say Broly was getting stronger than last time. only that he wasn't using his power like he did last time. Broly just says "it's tricky" So I assume Broly got stronger since it's been three years, just that he isn't getting stronger during battle like he did three years ago.

[Hugo Boss]

The dynamic between Broly and Vegeta shows exactly that Broly is getting stronger during their fight.

Broly started below Base Vegeta and ended equal to SS Vegeta. That goes to show that Vegeta got stronger as well during this fight. In the movie, Base Broly powered-up to a level that Vegeta needed SSG to beat. Now Vegeta can match that level with just his regular Super Saiyan form.

SSG and Ikari levels in my reading are still in a superior dimension from the levels they displayed in Chapter #101 though.