Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Ok lemme stop you right there, I see you trying to reframe your original argument from "Broly isn't one of the strongest" to "Broly isn't the strongest" No one here ever claimed the latter (Broly got wreaked by Gogeta in his debut film for kami sake)

Meanwhile for the former argument, As i've said before, Super Hero(both the movie and manga) pretty much debunks this as it still views Broly on the higher end of non-angel combatants in the series.

I'm not trying to re frame anything, it's BOTH. Broly isn't one of the strongest nor was he/is the strongest, hence why people thought he was exempt from the wish of the two star dragon in the Granolah arc.

You claimed Toyotaro hand wave the last two arcs when adapting Super Hero, l told you Black Freeza from the Granolah arc is a thing in Super Hero and then so is everything else that happened in that previous arc. Where Broly was not even considered to be among the strongest or one of the strongest.

Vs Super Hero, y'know, the arc that succeeds the Granolah arc, where he's still considered one of the strongest.

Where is that stated? He wasn't even considered among the tops in the universe in Granolah. So how is he going to be among the tops even in Super Hero?

[shadd21]

Where is that stated? He wasn't even considered among the tops in the universe in Granolah. So how is he going to be among the tops even in Super Hero?

Goku and Vegeta being nervous of him loosing control during training, Goku listing Broly as one of the people he and Vegeta need to surpass, Toriyama name dropping him specifically as someone a "Completed!Cell Max" could defeat.

It's clear that as of Super Hero the narrative views Broly as among the strongest in the universe, and any "statements" from the Granloah arc regarding Broly are now as flimsy as Toriyama's "Goku's a 9, Beerus' a 10, Whis' a 15" comment from back during the BoG days.

[Miracles]

Where is that stated? He wasn't even considered among the tops in the universe in Granolah. So how is he going to be among the tops even in Super Hero?

Goku and Vegeta being nervous of him loosing control during training, Goku listing Broly as one of the people he and Vegeta need to surpass, Toriyama name dropping him specifically as someone a "Completed!Cell Max" could defeat.

It's clear that as of Super Hero the narrative views Broly as among the strongest in the universe, and any "statements" from the Granloah arc regarding Broly are now as flimsy as Toriyama's "Goku's a 9, Beerus' a 10, Whis' a 15" comment from back during the BoG days.

First off don't mix continuites, Naturally in the movies Broly would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta since Super Hero is a clear sequel to DBS Broly. Therefore in the manga Broly is never said to be among the best in the universe, even in the Super Hero arc my dude. You are trying to place Broly up there by erasing the narrative sagas that was before it, that flows into the Super hero Arc.

[Mr Baggins]

"He's a Saiyan like me, but he's probably even stronger than Beerus-sama!" – Dragon Ball Super: Broly (2018)

"Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." (…) "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!" – Saikyo Jump (2018)

"It's like there's somehow still room to grow. There's plenty more for Goku. There's Whis, and of course, Beerus. Then Broly. Also the Great Priest." – Granolah arc interview from dragon-ball-official.com (2021)

"Broly’s unique transformation can beat Goku?! He awakened Super Saiyan Full Power, which made him fight evenly with Gogeta. But then, he lost control of himself and went berserk. If he controls his emotions and fights calmly, he surely can win!" – Saikyo Jump DB manga character article that covers up to midway through the Granolah arc (2022)

"If Cell Max had been completed according to plan, he would have been a superhuman who even Broly couldn't defeat." – Akira Toriyama (2022)

"To battle without losing yourself is an achievement, but you seem unable to unleash your true might." – Dragon Ball Super manga (2024)

[shadd21]

"He's a Saiyan like me, but he's probably even stronger than Beerus-sama!" – Dragon Ball Super: Broly (2018)

"Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful." (…) "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!" – Saikyo Jump (2018)

"It's like there's somehow still room to grow. There's plenty more for Goku. There's Whis, and of course, Beerus. Then Broly. Also the Great Priest." – Granolah arc interview from dragon-ball-official.com (2021)

"Broly’s unique transformation can beat Goku?! He awakened Super Saiyan Full Power, which made him fight evenly with Gogeta. But then, he lost control of himself and went berserk. If he controls his emotions and fights calmly, he surely can win!" – Saikyo Jump DB manga character article that covers up to midway through the Granolah arc (2022)

"If Cell Max had been completed according to plan, he would have been a superhuman who even Broly couldn't defeat." – Akira Toriyama (2022)

"To battle without losing yourself is an achievement, but you seem unable to unleash your true might." – Dragon Ball Super manga (2024)

^^^

First off don't mix continuites, Naturally in the movies Broly would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta since Super Hero is a clear sequel to DBS Broly. Therefore in the manga Broly is never said to be among the best in the universe, even in the Super Hero arc my dude. You are trying to place Broly up there by erasing the narrative sagas that was before it, that flows into the Super hero Arc.

I don't know what to tell you at this point dude, like so many things post-Granolah points at Broly being one of the strongest,

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this and continues to put stock in a now-outdated power statement makes you no better than those "Delusional Fanboys" you tend to mock and ridicule .

[SupremeKai25]

Where is that stated? He wasn't even considered among the tops in the universe in Granolah. So how is he going to be among the tops even in Super Hero?

Goku and Vegeta being nervous of him loosing control during training, Goku listing Broly as one of the people he and Vegeta need to surpass, Toriyama name dropping him specifically as someone a "Completed!Cell Max" could defeat.

It's clear that as of Super Hero the narrative views Broly as among the strongest in the universe, and any "statements" from the Granloah arc regarding Broly are now as flimsy as Toriyama's "Goku's a 9, Beerus' a 10, Whis' a 15" comment from back during the BoG days.

First off don't mix continuites, Naturally in the movies Broly would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta since Super Hero is a clear sequel to DBS Broly. Therefore in the manga Broly is never said to be among the best in the universe, even in the Super Hero arc my dude. You are trying to place Broly up there by erasing the narrative sagas that was before it, that flows into the Super hero Arc.

This.

Broly is the strongest only in the Movie continuity, where there is nothing between Broly movie and Super Hero movie.

In the Manga continuity, we know that Broly was surpassed by Moro-73 (stated by Goku), Vegeta at the start of Granolah arc (stated by Whis), and Granolah/Gas (stated by the Wish).

This doesn't mean that Broly cannot grow stronger; he's a Saiyan, that's what Saiyans do, but they need to train first (which is what Broly is doing lately).

But the version of Broly who appeared in the Movie has been left in the dust and surpassed long ago.

[Mr Baggins]

The movies and manga aren't doing anything different with Broly. Over half of what I just quoted above including Saikyo Jump was specifically in reference to the manga, the manga acts like the 2018 movie happened as-is (where Broly's FP form is literally compared to Beerus), and nobody ever directly draws a strength comparison to Broly by name in the Moro or Granolah arcs. I find it very funny that some of you are so fixated on the Granolah arc where a major thematic point is explicitly about not taking the wish at face value, despite Toyotaro's own ad-hoc explanations for all that in this month's chapter.

Throw someone like Granolah in the literal dimension-hopping battle between Broly and Gogeta and Granolah gets incinerated in the crossfire, 10 times out of 10, negative difficulty, no refunds. Dude ain't even in the conversation anymore, yet Broly clearly is.

That this is even still an argument is just... I can't, lol.

[QuakingStar]

Another issue us everyone is assuming Broly hasn't been training, or that he didn't get a "zenkai" from the battle with Gogeta. He could have easily gotten far stronger than when he fought Gogeta in the three years between his appearance and the SH Arc, and even if it was by a PL difference of 10,000 he could have still been close to everyone in the Granolah arc but just barely weaker. Three years go by and he's training(that's quite literally all he can do besides eating, on his home planet). So Broly can yet again be up in the upper rankings among the strongest. Is he THE strongest? as of SH, no. Will he be after the SH arc? Maybe. Cell Max was revealed to be completed, only thing that was not completed was the programming they would use to control him themselves.

We also saw that as the fight went on Cell Max was getting better control and usage of his own power and got to the point that he hit a plateau against Beast Gohan and with that we can assume that was his maximum power otherwise he simply would have kept powering up even during the energy clash.

[Jack Bz]

I think Broly is top dog but do genuinely think this is a fuck up of the broader super continuity, is a retcon, and that there just wasn't clear enough communication about this amongst Toyo and others.

I don't think there was any hidden meaning behind Goku saying he's never faced anyone as tough as Moro. To me that clearly meant Moro is stronger than Broly. And there's not even a secret caveat that Broly can't access his power because Goku faced Broly at his strongest.

Toyo is just having to course correct after getting a memo from upper management that Broly is still the strongest, and it's awkward and we're having a debate about it now! How fun!

[Thani]

I think Broly is top dog but do genuinely think this is a fuck up of the broader super continuity, is a retcon, and that there just wasn't clear enough communication about this amongst Toyo and others.

I don't think there was any hidden meaning behind Goku saying he's never faced anyone as tough as Moro. To me that clearly meant Moro is stronger than Broly. And there's not even a secret caveat that Broly can't access his power because Goku faced Broly at his strongest.

Toyo is just having to course correct after getting a memo from upper management that Broly is still the strongest, and it's awkward and we're having a debate about it now! How fun!

That's pretty much it... but it's still on Toyo for making this mess to begin with, imo. He didn't have to make Moro be "the strongest bar none" since, at the time, Goku and Vegeta were already considerably weaker than both of the antagonists they faced prior, Jiren and Broly. Moro could be up with them or even just weaker, but capable of compensating with magic, and the story would still play out the same.

The same thing more or less happened with the Granolah arc.

Now we have a LOT of inconsistencies - Broly is, at the same time, probably stronger than Beerus and an ant compared to Black Freeza who's NOT EVEN ON THE LEVEL OF THE GODS OF DESTRUCTION YET, WHICH INCLUDES BOTH BELMOD AND BEERUS, according to official sources, which would, funnily enough, mean he's still weaker than both Broly and Jiren. This would ALSO mean that only Broly and Jiren would qualify for "GoD-level" opponents, which goes against continuity as we know it, since we "know" Moro was the strongest at his time and later was surpassed by Granolah, Gas and then Freeza.

It just... don't work, unless we retcon stuff or get official clarification.

[Mr Baggins]

Toyo is just having to course correct after getting a memo from upper management that Broly is still the strongest

To be clear, I'm in full agreement with that. Extradiegetically, it is indeed a retcon of sorts.

Intradiegetically, this month's dialogue is Toyotaro applying his own course correction in an attempt to smooth things over. I predicted he would do this. It's not a perfect band-aid, but it gets the job done.

Broly is, at the same time, probably stronger than Beerus and an ant compared to Black Freeza who's NOT EVEN ON THE LEVEL OF THE GODS OF DESTRUCTION YET, WHICH INCLUDES BOTH BELMOD AND BEERUS

I'm not sure we should assume he's an ant compared to Black Freeza yet. Remember, he's heavily nerfed right now; a part of his arc is getting that strength back and under control, and the story seems to be implying he's a wildcard.

[Koitsukai]

Nobody is wrong for believing what they have been told, the manga said A, the movies said B, but we know whatever the movies say is what sticks to the wall, they are just starting to throw it to the wall. Conveniently, the manga left some windows opened to accomodate the movies, even if originally it was set up differently, so it's a soft retcon, if at all.

-The Moro comment is not that hard to hand wave, without even pretending Goku is some sort of semantics professor. Moro can be the toughest Goku, on his own, met, while Broly's FP doesn't really count because he faced him as Gogeta. Especially when tough is what I would call FPSS Broly vs Gogeta Blue, he was impossible to put down, Broly was tough as nails... but Goku didn't actually fight him, I guess.
-Whis' comment is kinda odd, he could've just said "well, if Broly snaps, then he would be ahead of you". oh well.
-The wish was a monkey's paw, if it can leave Freeza out because he was on another dimension (within U7...) so it can come back and bite Gas in the ass, then it can pretend Broly's FP doesn't count. Too bad they never cared to explain a fucking thing about a 2-DB set with no cooldown.

While a soft retcon-ish, it does perfectly align with something Shin said back in the FT arc: Vegito surpassing Beerus... if he was on that realm, and if Gogeta Blue is also the same, slightly stronger, then Broly is also close to that level.

In any case, I'd blame Toyo for having those statements that made us think one thing and then pulled out on that using the small print. Those statements the story can live without and nothing changes, they seemed to be plain, good ol' power ranking statements, we ALL took them as such, but ended up gone with the wind. Why include them in the first place?
I couldn't care less about out-of-universe opinions, not since Akira talked about SS rendering the higher forms obsolete only to have Goku access all of them in the manga all the fucking time. Until I don't see something in paper, it doesn't exist to me.

There is still some way to go until fully turning Toyo's initial conception into Toriyama's, but the road seems pretty clear to me.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

All this hubbub also retroactively makes Jiren impressive again since his God of Destruction-level strength remains a tentpole achievement.

[Thani]

Broly is, at the same time, probably stronger than Beerus and an ant compared to Black Freeza who's NOT EVEN ON THE LEVEL OF THE GODS OF DESTRUCTION YET, WHICH INCLUDES BOTH BELMOD AND BEERUS

I'm not sure we should assume he's an ant compared to Black Freeza yet. Remember, he's heavily nerfed right now; a part of his arc is getting that strength back and under control, and the story seems to be implying he's a wildcard.

Oh I'm not saying he is, but anyone would be forgiven to reach that conclusion by using the manga as a guideline. I mean:

1. Moro is the "toughest" Goku fought at the time. Moro then crushed his hand trying to punch Goku and was easily styled on.
2. Granolah defeated that same Goku.
3. Gas defeats Granolah.
4. Goku becomes stronger to fight Gas.
5. Gas becomes even stronger.
6. Freeza easily kills Gas and one-shot both Goku and Vegeta.

Those are 6 whole steps that the manga wanted us to belive were above both Broly and Jiren. And yet according to official sources, Freeza is "only" approaching the Gods of Destruction in power, which both Broly and Jiren are counted as peers of... Which would make all of the above weaker than them, despite Goku saying Moro, the weakest of the new foes, was the strongest he fought at the time.

Which is why I say it doesn't add up, it doesn't work. Most official sources still hype Jiren and Broly as GoD-tier characters, and they've been doing that for a while now, but also put Black Freeza as not at that level yet, so something has to give.

Which, as it seems, what is giving is Toyo's vision since he's going out of his way to portray Broly as relevant again by estabilishing that Broly can't just access his full power right now.

And I'm all for that, personally. I've been frustrated by his powerscaling ideas ever since the Moro arc, after all

All this hubbub also retroactively makes Jiren impressive again since his God of Destruction-level strength remains a tentpole achievement.

I'm also all for that, incidentally.

Nobody is wrong for believing what they have been told, the manga said A, the movies said B, but we know whatever the movies say is what sticks to the wall, they are just starting to throw it to the wall. Conveniently, the manga left some windows opened to accomodate the movies, even if originally it was set up differently, so it's a soft retcon, if at all.

While a soft retcon-ish, it does perfectly align with something Shin said back in the FT arc: Vegito surpassing Beerus... if he was on that realm, and if Gogeta Blue is also the same, slightly stronger, then Broly is also close to that level.

In any case, I'd blame Toyo for having those statements that made us think one thing and then pulled out on that using the small print. Those statements the story can live without and nothing changes, they seemed to be plain, good ol' power ranking statements, we ALL took them as such, but ended up gone with the wind. Why include them in the first place?
I couldn't care less about out-of-universe opinions, not since Akira talked about SS rendering the higher forms obsolete only to have Goku access all of them in the manga all the fucking time. Until I don't see something in paper, it doesn't exist to me.

Yes, to absolutely all of this.

[Hugo Boss]

To paraphrase Vegeta, rankings are good and all, but they only reflect a moment in time. They are constantly subject to change.

And to be fair, while the word “tough” can be used interchangeably with “strong”, in the light of recent data, we could infer Goku meant “difficult”. After all, Fusion did work against Broly, while it would be useless against Moro with spirit fission.

And Broly having issues with controlling power probably doesn’t make him impressive on anyone’s opinion, specially Whis. He is basically a mirror to Gohan before the Cell Games.

[Miracles]

The problem is fans think official sources override/same as canon material. This is not the case. They even think this is the case for the manga and movies. Which the head of the Dragonball Room [or Former] said they are not. We clearly see this on screen and on paper.

DBS: Super Hero in the movie universe is strictly a sequel to DBS: Broly movie. Naturally Broly would be top dawg with Goku and Vegeta capped at Super Saiyan Blue the last time we seen them. This is not the case in the manga universe where others have already mentioned the previous arcs that have come to fruition actually leaving Broly in the dust.

Right now Broly is not relevant to the power discussion. The problem is people were headcanoning statements from official sources, assumptive comparison's from movies to reconcile it with the manga, claiming Broly was exempt from all the power creep that happened in the last two arcs. Well we see the fact on paper that Broly is not among the discussion now. You are gonna have to accept the facts now and understand why Toyotaro ignored Victory Uchida about Broly because it ain't his time.

[SupremeKai25]

"Tough" in the context of Moro was almost certainly referring to power level. If it was referring to anything else (i.e. durability/resistance/endurance/stamina/overall difficulty), then the "toughest" antagonist would obviously be Zamasu, the only one who was Immortal, the only one that the protagonists could never defeat.

So "tough" in the context of Moro was referring to his power level, so Goku said that Moro was stronger than Broly. Goku fused into Gogeta only midway through the fight, he still fought Broly by himself for a time, so Broly falls under the statement.

Frieza was not included in the "strongest mortal" wish, because the wish was about the strongest in the Universe. Frieza, at the time, technically wasn't in the universe, but in another, separate dimension entirely. So he was not included. Broly would be included, as he would have been inside the universe (Planet Vampa) at the time.

It is clear that Toyotaro believes that the version of Broly who appeared in the Movie is no longer relevant. He is kept around only because he can grow stronger through his Saiyan genes.

[shadd21]

The problem is fans think official sources override/same as canon material. This is not the case. They even think this is the case for the manga and movies. Which the head of the Dragonball Room [or Former] said they are not. We clearly see this on screen and on paper.

DBS: Super Hero in the movie universe is strictly a sequel to DBS: Broly movie. Naturally Broly would be top dawg with Goku and Vegeta capped at Super Saiyan Blue the last time we seen them. This is not the case in the manga universe where others have already mentioned the previous arcs that have come to fruition actually leaving Broly in the dust.

Right now Broly is not relevant to the power discussion. The problem is people were headcanoning statements from official sources, assumptive comparison's from movies to reconcile it with the manga, claiming Broly was exempt from all the power creep that happened in the last two arcs. Well we see the fact on paper that Broly is not among the discussion now. You are gonna have to accept the facts now and understand why Toyotaro ignored Victory Uchida about Broly because it ain't his time.

Projection much? Anywho, Here's a little shock for your system, Broly during the Granolah arc was still consider among the strongest, Credit to Mr Baggins for digging these up..

"It's like there's somehow still room to grow. There's plenty more for Goku. There's Whis, and of course, Beerus. Then Broly. Also the Great Priest." – Granolah arc interview from dragon-ball-official.com (2021)

"Broly’s unique transformation can beat Goku?! He awakened Super Saiyan Full Power, which made him fight evenly with Gogeta. But then, he lost control of himself and went berserk. If he controls his emotions and fights calmly, he surely can win!" – Saikyo Jump DB manga character article that covers up to midway through the Granolah arc (2022)

Like between these, and the stuff from the Super Hero arc, how is this even still debatable at this point.

[ssj3kakarot]

I feel like too many people put too much stock in what someone says (AT, Toyo, etc)

The show, or the manga, is the main source. If you can't convey you're point via words, dialoge, or feats, then thats on you.

Take Dumbledore for example: JK never explicity said that he was homo. No big deal. But she created him as being gay. But there is nothing that says he's gay in the books or the original movies. (If memory serves me)

If Toriyama said that Krillin is literally the strongest, i dont care, I dont buy it. If they write him to be the strongest, and he demonstrates it. That's what matters. So until Goku, Vegeta, Broly, etc, surpass Beerus, than they just aren't (Jiren included).

I'd pressume this problem exists because they tried to expand the DB verse in a way that they just weren't use to doing before and jumped WAY too high. Now they have to scale back, make Beerus a moving goal post, etc. Hell, Battle of Gods has Goku using universal ripping punches. He is vastly stronger, yet his moves don't do as much damage.

I'm personally of the mindset that Goku could still take out the likes of Vegeta, Gohan, Broly if they were all a 1v1 fight. He has the best technique (Ultra instinct) out there, and he has had it the longest. He should win. But, if they decide to make those other 3, or anyone else for that matter beat him, surpass him, then that's fine. Ultra Instinct is another one of those things they needed to make weaker in order for others to shine and it not be just Goku being untouchable, 1 shotting everyone.

We knew Goku was stronger than Freeza because he beat him. Same with Cell and Gohan. Gohan and Buu. It was showed. There wasn't any questions in anyones mind because what we read, or what we watched conveyed the message clearly. It's like Super isn't able to land on an idea and say " This is the heirachy" of power. That's one of the reasons why Dragonball and Dbz were so amazing. People knew who was stronger, and they had their training arcs, came back stronger, show cased it, even characters would say " wow, character X is stronger than Goku now." So we all knew. The problem now is that there are some statements, but then the feats dont match, or the statements are vauge.

[Miracles]

The problem is fans think official sources override/same as canon material. This is not the case. They even think this is the case for the manga and movies. Which the head of the Dragonball Room [or Former] said they are not. We clearly see this on screen and on paper.

DBS: Super Hero in the movie universe is strictly a sequel to DBS: Broly movie. Naturally Broly would be top dawg with Goku and Vegeta capped at Super Saiyan Blue the last time we seen them. This is not the case in the manga universe where others have already mentioned the previous arcs that have come to fruition actually leaving Broly in the dust.

Right now Broly is not relevant to the power discussion. The problem is people were headcanoning statements from official sources, assumptive comparison's from movies to reconcile it with the manga, claiming Broly was exempt from all the power creep that happened in the last two arcs. Well we see the fact on paper that Broly is not among the discussion now. You are gonna have to accept the facts now and understand why Toyotaro ignored Victory Uchida about Broly because it ain't his time.

Projection much? Anywho, Here's a little shock for your system, Broly during the Granolah arc was still consider among the strongest, Credit to Mr Baggins for digging these up..

"It's like there's somehow still room to grow. There's plenty more for Goku. There's Whis, and of course, Beerus. Then Broly. Also the Great Priest." – Granolah arc interview from dragon-ball-official.com (2021)

"Broly’s unique transformation can beat Goku?! He awakened Super Saiyan Full Power, which made him fight evenly with Gogeta. But then, he lost control of himself and went berserk. If he controls his emotions and fights calmly, he surely can win!" – Saikyo Jump DB manga character article that covers up to midway through the Granolah arc (2022)

Like between these, and the stuff from the Super Hero arc, how is this even still debatable at this point.

Again, you post something that proves my exact point. Thanks.