Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

Strength is not just power level. Strength as a term refers to everything, including endurance, stamina, energy, speed, etc.

Yes, and Jiren is better than Zamasu in all categories as a fighter.

Jiren is not more durable than Infinite Zamasu. Beerus' Hakai will annihilate Jiren, while it won't do anything to IZ (Beerus' admission).

as his "toughest" foe (タフ historically refers to durability/difficulty)

Yet Moro was clearly neither more durable nor more difficult to defeat than Infinite Zamasu.

Beerus' Hakai will destroy Moro. It won't do anything to IZ (Beerus' admission).

The mortals defeated Moro, while they were helpless against IZ if not for Zeno.

Since Moro is neither more durable nor harder to beat than Infinite Zamasu, the statement could have only been referring to Moro's brute power level. Which is why that statement is proof that Moro surpassed 2018!Broly.

If you take Infinite Zamasu and make him corporeal, he's just Merged Zamasu. Merged Zamasu stopped being relevant in 2017, bro.

This post doesn't make sense. It's like saying "If you take Moro and remove his absorption technique, he's fodder."

"If you take Granolah/Gas and remove their wish, they are fodder."

You can't take a character and remove a core aspect of them.

In this case, you cannot take IZ and remove the core aspect that he is not restricted to one body. Because then you are not talking about Infinite Zamasu anymore, you are talking about Fused Zamasu (who is correctly placed in the Entry level of UI/Destroyer tier, below the current "heavy hitters", in terms of raw power level).

Merged Zamasu stopped being relevant in 2017, bro.

Fused Zamasu was relevant in SDBH (2019 arc) btw.

[Mr Baggins]

Yet Moro was clearly neither more durable nor more difficult to defeat than Infinite Zamasu.

Goku has red button. Goku presses red button. Red button goes boom and Goku escapes.

That's the "difficulty" of Infinite Zamasu. The original native language dialogue is correct – he doesn't come even a fraction as close to the sheer level of threat that Moro posed, where they didn't have any emergency buttons to fall back on and everything from fusion to Beerus's willingness to intervene was rendered moot.

Nobody in-universe or out-of-universe talks about Zamasu in the seven literal IRL years he's been defeated. Vegeta didn't mention him in the Super Hero arc. None of the three creatives of the mainline series saw fit to bring him up in the numerous occasions they've touched upon other antagonists retroactively, which makes sense because in a series about martial arts it's clear that Zamasu isn't in the conversation.

Let it go, fam.

[QuakingStar]

In the Manga, Fused Zamasu being immortal was the issue. His power wasn't slightly less than Perfected Blue Goku's. There was also the fact he just made clones of himself too. Being an immortal only Zeno could erase him and only sealing him could actually defeat him and there were too many of him to seal in time. In the anime when he becomes part of reality they could not touch or effect him and only Zeno could beat him. Manga Fused Zamasu was surpassed in almsot every single way after that arc by the next big bads.

[SupremeKai25]

Yet Moro was clearly neither more durable nor more difficult to defeat than Infinite Zamasu.

Goku has red button. Goku presses red button. Red button goes boom and Goku escapes.

With this, I can tell that you are not posting in good faith at all.

It wasn't that easy to defeat Zamasu, and you know it.

he doesn't come even a fraction as close to the sheer level of threat that Moro posed,

Zamasu literally threatened two timelines.

Nobody in-universe or out-of-universe talks about Zamasu in the seven literal IRL years he's been defeated. Vegeta didn't mention him in the Super Hero arc. None of the three creatives of the mainline series saw fit to bring him up in the numerous occasions they've touched upon other antagonists retroactively, which makes sense because in a series about martial arts it's clear that Zamasu isn't in the conversation.

That he isn't in the conversation doesn't change the fact that he belongs in the same tier with Zeno and Super Shenron.

In the Manga, Fused Zamasu being immortal was the issue. His power wasn't slightly less than Perfected Blue Goku's. There was also the fact he just made clones of himself too. Being an immortal only Zeno could erase him and only sealing him could actually defeat him and there were too many of him to seal in time. In the anime when he becomes part of reality they could not touch or effect him and only Zeno could beat him. Manga Fused Zamasu was surpassed in almsot every single way after that arc by the next big bads.

AND Fused Zamasu is placed in Entry UI level, below the likes of Jiren.

We are talking about Infinite Zamasu who belongs in a special tier with Zeno and Super Shenron.

[Mr Baggins]

Gotta love the irony of being accused of posting in bad faith by the guy with the literal Zamasu avatar and username. I'll let that speak for itself.

But no, it was that easy because that's exactly what happened. The whole narrative thrust of Zamasu is that he's a scrub in the grand scheme who was so thirsty for power that he would resort to stealing bodies, becoming immortal, using potara earrings and then defying reality so he wouldn't have to rely on his own low level strength. Even that didn't work out so well for him. Both the characters and the writing consistently treat him as desperate and weak, especially as far as the manga is concerned. Putting him above everyone on an "outlasting" technicality is disingenuous as hell.

That this even needs to be explained is pretty astonishing. Anyway, I'm gonna go back to discussing the characters that are actually relevant to the highest tiers in terms of fighting prowess now.

[ZombieVito]

1) I would add Infinite Zamasu just underneath Zeno and put Super Shenron equal to the later.
2) Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta.
3) Piccolo is on par with Goku and Vegeta.
4) Cell Max is stronger than Goku and Vegeta.
5) Gamma 2's attack should be one tier below Cell Max.
6) SSB Vegetto was on par with Fused Zamasu.
7) You have Gamma 1 very high. He's just SSB tier in SH so it should be SSBKK from the ToP.
8 ) Koichiarator should be stronger than Goku Black. It gave trouble to a much stronger Goku.
9) Future Zamasu is SS2 tier. Just like his present self.
10) Obuni shouldn't be that high. He lost to base Vegeta, stalemated with base Gohan and only gave the later trouble because of his feints.
11) Rubalt, Damon and Gamisaras are base tier since Piccolo is too in the ToP.

1) Infinite Zamasu should still be as strong as Merged Zamasu, it's just that he can't be killed. Also, I know it's kind of a futile effort to reconcile the Anime and the Manga, let alone SDBH, but apparently Zamasu was still alive in the Prison Planet Arc. So it's kind of iffy but I'd still put Super Shenron above Zeno.

2) I think Gohan was stronger than Goku and Vegeta from the last time Piccolo and co. saw them, but I'd still put the both of them above him. I don't think we'll get a Goku VS Gohan fight in the Manga, but I guess we'll find out who's stronger for sure if it does happen.

3) I only think that he's on par as in he's in the "beyond the Hakaishin" category at best. Nothing in the actual story suggests he's close in power to the strongest guys. However, I do think he'd be on the same level if he pulled the self sacrificing Light Grenade he was about to use against Moro.

4) Stronger than Goku and Vegeta from when the Movie was released, which was before Gas was a thing, yeah.

5) It's in the same tier as Orange Piccolo, albeit a bit weaker.

6) Yeah, he dicked around at that level until he used the Kamehameha in the Manga and that final punch in the Anime that made him defuse.

7) I keep hearing that they're SSB tier but has this ever been actually stated? The Gammas are weaker than Ultimate Gohan who's equal to LSS Kefla in the Manga, but they're stated to be the strongest Androids so they should be above 17, so I just put them somewhere in between there.

8 ) On the fence on this one. On one hand, Goku said his stamina had "recovered a bit" before he joined the fight against Koichiarator so I have no trouble putting him below the SSBs. But it could also be above them since Gohan had to charge his Kamehameha a fair bit to defeat him, and the same Gohan was able to push Goku into SSB in their sparring match. I think either could work.

P.S. I do not know how hard it would be to code this but can we get a petition to not change "8 )" to on this forum if, say, "6)" and "7)" are present in the same post?

9) Yeah, I think I did put him a bit too high. He was getting owned by SSG Goku in the Manga so I'd put him in that tier at best. I still think he could've gotten stronger in the time that had elapsed. I'd put him around Anime Kale's level since both of them have the same tendency to fluctuate between fighting SSBs and jobbing to a SSG.

10) Yeah, I included his technique for the ranking though.

11) Piccolo has always made the Base Saiyans look better than him since like the Buu arc, but do not believe him. He be hiding his power to make Gohan look more impressive.

1) Well, Zeno is physically weak and yet you put him on the highest tier because of his erase technique. I see putting Infinite Zamasu in the same tier because of his attributes no different than that.

2) But Gohan is confirmed by Toriyama as being the strongest.

3) Piccolo is confirmed by Toriyama to rival Goku's power now.

4) If Piccolo couldn't even beat a weakened Cell Max then Goku and Vegeta can't as well.

6) Nothing suggest he's not going all out. They even clash fists while Gowasu explains that Zamasu wasn't healing and Vegetto only noted superiority with his speed.

7) They are SSB tier because they are on Ultimate Gohan's level, who is SSB tier.

9 ) Future Zamasu couldn't beat SS2 Future Trunks on the both occasions they fought alone. He's SS2 tier.

11) This makes no sense at all. They are on a tournament that decides their fates, he wouldn't hold back to make base Gohan look good. He's base tier as their fight with the U6 Namekains proved.

[Miracles]

How do we see the top fighters in relation to the other gods of destruction, meaning aside from Beerus who is clearly still the strongest?

I was just reading the pre-ToP stuff the other day and saw the part where goku went ssg against toppo, and one of the GoD's said he was already at their level.

Obviously this isn't true, but how are seeing UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Beast Gohan, and Broly vs the lesser gods of destruction at this point?

Gohan, Broly, Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo should all be able to beat Belmond at least since all of them surpassed ToP Jiren.

Oh, you are spot on with this manga wise. This is just a progressive Dragonball narrative fact. However, Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo surpassing Jiren in movie land is suspect tho. Broly is stronger than Jiren in movie continuity too tho.

[ZombieVito]

Oh, you are spot on with this manga wise. This is just a progressive Dragonball narrative fact. However, Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo surpassing Jiren in movie land is suspect tho. Broly is stronger than Jiren in movie continuity too tho.

Goku already surpassed Jiren at the ToP. Super Hero is 3 years after it so Goku should be considerably stronger than ToP Jiren but you made me realized that Vegeta doesn't have UE in the anime so Piccolo is stronger than him in that continuity at the moment lmao.

[ssj3kakarot]

Oh, you are spot on with this manga wise. This is just a progressive Dragonball narrative fact. However, Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo surpassing Jiren in movie land is suspect tho. Broly is stronger than Jiren in movie continuity too tho.

Goku already surpassed Jiren at the ToP. Super Hero is 3 years after it so Goku should be considerably stronger than ToP Jiren but you made me realized that Vegeta doesn't have UE in the anime so Piccolo is stronger than him in that continuity at the moment lmao.

You're implying if you've only ever watched the animated series since the last we saw was Goku and Vegeta in the ToP, correct? I've been watching entirely too many fanmade Dbs mangas and they are all starting to melt into one.

[SupremeKai25]

But no, it was that easy because that's exactly what happened. The whole narrative thrust of Zamasu is that he's a scrub in the grand scheme who was so thirsty for power that he would resort to stealing bodies, becoming immortal, using potara earrings and then defying reality so he wouldn't have to rely on his own low level strength. Even that didn't work out so well for him. Both the characters and the writing consistently treat him as desperate and weak, especially as far as the manga is concerned. Putting him above everyone on an "outlasting" technicality is disingenuous as hell.

1) Yes, Zamasu is a villain who cheats and steals (the norm in Dragon Ball villains); that has no bearing on his placement in the power scale. Otherwise, we might as well place Granola and Gas forever in Bardock tier.

2) You're acting like Zamasu is the only villain who stole his power, when Majin Buu, Cell, Moro, Granola, and Elec did the same or were arguably more cowardly and lazy (at least Zamasu put in some effort in training to get used to Goku's body). In fact, if we remove all the power-stealing, Zamasu (who is stronger than Shin who could wipe out Namek saga Frieza) would annihilate Granola and Elec (around weakling Bardock's level), which makes your comment about Zamasu's presumed weakness all the funnier.

1) Well, Zeno is physically weak and yet you put him on the highest tier because of his erase technique. I see putting Infinite Zamasu in the same tier because of his attributes no different than that.

This.

If these tiers were only talking about physical strength, then Zeno would go at the bottom, since Base Goku casually picked him up (indication that Zeno is physically scrawny and weak).

The fact that Zeno is placed at the top in every power list is the ultimate proof that power is not just about physical strength.

We put Zeno at the top because, despite of his physical weakness, he still has the ultimate hax technique that no one can counter. Therefore, we also put Infinite Zamasu at the top because he has ultimate hax technique that only Zeno can counter.

And the fact that Goku and Vegeta never mention Infinite Zamasu during their training is a point IN FAVOUR of Zamasu, NOT AGAINST. It means that Zamasu is at such an unreachable level that it's not even relevant to bring him up, because Goku and Vegeta can never reach his level through training.

Which is why they mention Jiren/Granola/Gas/Broly (all very strong people that can be surpassed and beaten through training), but not Infinite Zamasu or Zeno (ultimate hax character that no one can defeat in battle and whose level can't be reached via training).

It should be rather obvious why Infinite Zamasu is never mentioned.

[Mr Baggins]

Yes, Zamasu is a villain who cheats and steals (the norm in Dragon Ball villains); that has no bearing on his placement in the power scale. Otherwise, we might as well place Granola and Gas forever in Bardock tier.

*sigh*... Hombre, you're clearly not getting this.

What Zamasu does has every bearing on his placement on a power scale when he's bypassing the concept of power altogether. That's the point of his character. We've seen that much with the immortality wish, or his fused self just flat-out becoming incorporeal when he didn't get his way. It's not like Moro's absorption or Granolah's wish to be the strongest or even Zeno's obliterating existence; it's more like having Mr. Satan become immortal and then putting him at the top because most of the characters can't kill him.

You're comparing apples to oranges and likening obviously non-strength related matters to strength related matters so you can force some arbitrarily high ranking for Zamasu, but Infinite Zamasu doesn't actually have anything that any of these characters want, which is 1) why they haven't brought him up in 7 years, and 2) why they instead regarded him with contempt back when he actually was relevant.

Sir, this is a Wendy's, and Dragon Ball is a series about martial arts. Going intangible doesn't suddenly increase a character's strength. If you'd rather base your scaling purely on hypotheticals and technicalities like "A can outlast B in a fight because A isn't physical", be my guest, but neither most of the people in this thread nor the series itself are interested in following that lead.

[SupremeKai25]

What Zamasu does has every bearing on his placement on a power scale when he's bypassing the concept of power altogether. That's the point of his character. We've seen that much with the immortality wish, or his fused self just flat-out becoming incorporeal when he didn't get his way. It's not like Moro's absorption or Granolah's wish to be the strongest or even Zeno's obliterating existence; it's more like having Mr. Satan become immortal and then putting him at the top because most of the characters can't kill him.

Infinite Zamasu is not placed at the top simply because he is immortal. It's also because he is a Cosmis entity (this is stated by Gowasu, who stated that he "became one with the very fabric of the Cosmos"). It is the combination of BOTH, Immortality and an incorporeal, Cosmic-spanning form, that grants him a spot in the top tier.

Garlic Jr. is immortal, but he is not placed at the top because anyone with Mafuba can end him.

An Immortal Mr. Satan would not be placed at the top because anyone with Mafuba can end him.

Infinite Zamasu is placed at the top because we know of no technique in existence besides Zeno's Erase technique who can end him. Mafuba is obviously not going to do anything to IZ. That is why IZ is placed right below Zeno.

If it was just about immortality, we would place Future Zamasu at the top too, No? But we don't, because it's already proven that the Mafuba can end him.

Now, if Mr. Satan became immortal and somehow merged with the Cosmos? I would absolutely place him at the top. I have no horse in this race (the proof of this is that I acknowledged that Fused Zamasu might be weaker than Jiren in terms of raw power level, this is the proof that I don't have a horse in this race, I could be convinced either way).

To centralize the debate and cut the filler, I would ask you three key questions, to gauge your final standing on this; anyone else is also free to answer these three questions:

1) Where would you place Infinite Zamasu in a general power tier (if not below Zeno/in the same tier as Zeno)?

2) If you placed Infinite Zamasu below Character X (Example, Jiren), do you think that Character X (Example, Jiren) could defeat Infinite Zamasu in a fight?

3) Given how Infinite Zamasu is sustained by Super Shenron's power (Gowasu states "But thanks to the Dragon's power, his being remains"), do you think that Infinite Zamasu and Super Shenron should be placed in the same tier/close to each other?

[Mr Baggins]

An Immortal Mr. Satan would not be placed at the top because anyone with Mafuba can end him.

I... what?

You understand Mafuba is a rare technique that few characters have access to, right? Immortal Mr. Satan can still outlast opponents that can't bypass his immortality, including those that are stronger than the ones that can. That's circular placement.

Once you stop confusing versus threads/discussions with strength threads, you can pretty easily answer the three questions in your post. They are two very distinct things; the latter is a concrete ranking system, while the former is completely hypothetical and based on specific match-ups. Weaker characters beating stronger ones is not at all unheard of in DB.

[SupremeKai25]

An Immortal Mr. Satan would not be placed at the top because anyone with Mafuba can end him.

I... what?

You understand Mafuba is a rare technique that few characters have access to, right? Immortal Mr. Satan can still outlast opponents that can't bypass his immortality, including those that are stronger than the ones that can. That's circular placement.

Once you stop confusing versus threads/discussions with strength threads, you can pretty easily answer the three questions in your post. They are two very distinct things; the latter is a concrete ranking system, while the former is completely hypothetical and based on specific match-ups. Weaker characters beating stronger ones is not at all unheard of in DB.

Why is Zeno placed at the top of the scale when he is slower than Dyspo (so he can't react to anyone faster than Dyspo) and so frail and weak that Base Goku can casually pick him up?

[Mr Baggins]

Why are you asking me? I don't personally rank Zeno anywhere. He doesn't fight/spar.

[Thani]

I mean, he was at the epicenter of his own timeline-erasing technique and later was shown floating in the nothingness left with not a single scratch.

You could argue that he's immune to his own techniques, of course, but then... He was capable of perceiving the whole fight of UI Goku vs Jiren at their full power.

As far as Zeno is concerned, it's useless to rank him in anyway except "he's the most powerful shown character in the DB franchise, but he's no fighter".

[SupremeKai25]

You could argue that he's immune to his own techniques,

My point exactly about Infinite Zamasu and how a character's immunity to one or all techniques should play a role in the final estimation of that character's "strength".

Zeno is placed at the top because we can assume that he is immortal and invulnerable to everything.

He was capable of perceiving the whole fight of UI Goku vs Jiren at their full power.

Actually, was he not having trouble following the speed at which Dyspo and his enemies were moving around?

A neater solution to this conundrum would be to just restrict the power-scale to fighters, and ignore all the characters who are not fighters. Zeno and Super Shenron are not fighters; I also wouldn't classify Infinite Zamasu as a fighter.

Still, I can't disagree with the notion that Zeno, Super Shenron, and Infinite Zamasu are at an unreachable level of power compared to what normal fighters can attain through training.

[Thani]

Actually, was he not having trouble following the speed at which Dyspo and his enemies were moving around?

Indeed, he was. But then later he was having no trouble with both Jiren and (both versions of) UI Goku fighting around.

[DBZ Macky]

Zamasu literally threatened two timelines.

Why is this such a big deal? He was wearing the Time Ring before becoming Infinite Zamasu. Who's to say he didn't just merge with the thing and that granted him the ability to affect multiple timelines? Sure, that isn't stated anywhere, but neither is it stated that he could do that stuff because of his raw power.

Actually, was he not having trouble following the speed at which Dyspo and his enemies were moving around?

Indeed, he was. But then later he was having no trouble with both Jiren and (both versions of) UI Goku fighting around.

Yeah, it's kind of inconsistent but Zeno doesn't need to actually follow the fighters to be stronger than them anyways. The other fighters might have better perception than them but he still has the bigger attack potency. I don't think Dyspo could defeat Zeno if he were to throw hands with him, so why is this even a discussion?

Also y'all, Anime Jiren should definitively be above Movie Broly. Broly was only maybe stronger than Beerus whereas Jiren was stated to be stronger than the Gods of destruction as a whole, and then he went on to surpass that power in his "Super Full Power" state.
Goku doesn't say that Broly was the enemy they faced, but he does say so about Moro if my memory serves me correctly.

So I think a power scale for the main antagonists can be established:
Broly < Jiren < Moro < Granolah < Gas < Black Frieza

That being said, I do think Broly is more relevant to the story than Jiren and is possibly stronger than most of the cast after the training on Beerus's planet.

[Miracles]

Zamasu literally threatened two timelines.

Also y'all, Anime Jiren should definitively be above Movie Broly. Broly was only maybe stronger than Beerus whereas Jiren was stated to be stronger than the Gods of destruction as a whole, and then he went on to surpass that power in his "Super Full Power" state.
Goku doesn't say that Broly was the enemy they faced, but he does say so about Moro if my memory serves me correctly.

So I think a power scale for the main antagonists can be established:
Broly < Jiren < Moro < Granolah < Gas < Black Frieza

That being said, I do think Broly is more relevant to the story than Jiren and is possibly stronger than most of the cast after the training on Beerus's planet.

Jiren only surpassed a god, singular in the anime and manga...

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