Freeza shouldn’t have been a transforming villain

[Osmium]

I find the fight between the non-Goku characters and Freeza to be less him “playing with his food” and more just plain incompetence, particularly when he’s constantly getting blindsided and getting the shit beaten out of him until he decides it’s time to transform again, so he can comfortably dominate, until something happens that allows the characters to be conveniently just strong enough to challenge Freeza at his current level, so he has to transform again.

Nothing actually happens until Freeza reaches his final form because that’s when things can actually have an impact because Freeza doesn’t have a magic “reset the fight” button at hand. Dende isn’t killed until Freeza reaches his final form. Vegeta doesn’t give up until Freeza reaches his final form because that’s when the story commands it. Goku doesn’t show up until the final form because otherwise there would be no tension at all.

It just screams poor writing to me.

He's not a great fighter. He typically relies too much on strength, but he has so much of it so I don't know how you can say he was incompetent when he never HAD to transform except once. He did it to intimidate people and to amuse himself.

I agree about cutting out the 3rd form. The rest work, even the final final form where he bulks up. It's a lot like Trunks' transformation in that he has a lot more strength but no idea how to use it properly.

I suppose those are good points, but my problem with that is that it’s really underwhelming then after all the buildup that Freeza gets as this impossible wall of power only to be consistently fooled by a group of weirdo ragtag fighters who shouldn’t matter to him whatsoever.

It’s not like the situation with Raditz, who was a low level fighter with limited experience and only had his gut to go off of, Freeza was an emperor ruling a good fraction of the universe, and who was portrayed as sufficiently cunning and intelligent.

[Zephyr]

I find the fight between the non-Goku characters and Freeza to be less him “playing with his food” and more just plain incompetence, particularly when he’s constantly getting blindsided and getting the shit beaten out of him until he decides it’s time to transform again, so he can comfortably dominate, until something happens that allows the characters to be conveniently just strong enough to challenge Freeza at his current level, so he has to transform again.

Well, he does say that he's been made a fool of after his plans for immortality fall through. But he also calls the group "industrious" for having defeated the Ginyu Force. Personally I read the group's many successes at blindsiding and beating the shit out of Freeza as a reason to praise them, rather than a reason to denigrate Freeza. They're a scrappy bunch, and deserve props. It is indeed not every day that some group of stooges from a backwater planet like Earth come along and go toe-to-toe with the emperor of the universe. That's part of the fun irony; our guys are just built different.

But like you said, he's only moving the bar enough to "comfortably dominate", rather than simply ending things immediately, which is telling to me. He wants to torture them after they deprived him of immortality, and each subsequent transformation is increasingly difficult for him to control. The closer to his true strength, the more likely it is he'd just accidentally kill someone. Where's the fun in that?

There's also the way dude is just so fucking stoked every time he announces a new transformation and sees the look of horror in everyone's faces, and says some shit about returning the pain he's been dealt by many times. He is 100% playing with his food. The degree to which this food makes it difficult is more compliments to the chef than something which calls the patron's abilities into question. He's never had a dish quite like this in his toy box.

[AliTheZombie13]

SNIP

Toriyama himself thinks Freeza should have only had two transformations so even the man himself would agree with this sentiment (and that says something as his sensibilities don't often align with the fandoms').

Me personally, I like how freaky and outright monstrous his third form looks. I like that it exists even if it doesn't add anything to the plot and is only there for like 5 minutes.

The man himself thought the entire Freeza vs. Goku fight was dragging out for far too long by the time Super Saiyan showed up.

[SupremeKai25]

Interesting how the Namek saga and Frieza as a villain have so many writing flaws and issues in hindsight, yet they are generally considered to be the best part of the Dragon Ball franchise. Nostalgia? Nostalgia due to growing up watching them?

I wonder if Super arcs will carry the same nostalgia value for Zoomers and Gen. Alpha in the future, wherein the future generations that will grow up with Super will not hyperfocus on DBS' writing flaws like the DBZ's generation does.

For instance, since this thread is complaining that Frieza had too many forms in DBZ (correct), should we not give DBS credit for "streamlining" Frieza appearances to just his "True" form? (Golden and Black Frieza are recolours of his "True" form, after all)

[Jord]

When you have established a trend of villains going through transformations (the Saiyans to Oozaru as a holdover from Goku's Monkey King roots, Zarbon, to a certain extent Piccolo going from old to young) it makes sense that not only would the biggest baddest villain (at the time) be able to transform but that he would have at least one extra metamorphosis. I do agree the third form was pretty pointless other than to pad the story out a bit and let Toriyama remind everyone he's seen Alien.

I agree with you. The third form only existed to trump Piccolo's power and there was basically no story reason for him to transform again since he was far and away the strongest at that point. It felt more like showing of.
That being said, this third form does look cool at least.

[ABED]

I find the fight between the non-Goku characters and Freeza to be less him “playing with his food” and more just plain incompetence, particularly when he’s constantly getting blindsided and getting the shit beaten out of him until he decides it’s time to transform again, so he can comfortably dominate, until something happens that allows the characters to be conveniently just strong enough to challenge Freeza at his current level, so he has to transform again.

Nothing actually happens until Freeza reaches his final form because that’s when things can actually have an impact because Freeza doesn’t have a magic “reset the fight” button at hand. Dende isn’t killed until Freeza reaches his final form. Vegeta doesn’t give up until Freeza reaches his final form because that’s when the story commands it. Goku doesn’t show up until the final form because otherwise there would be no tension at all.

It just screams poor writing to me.

He's not a great fighter. He typically relies too much on strength, but he has so much of it so I don't know how you can say he was incompetent when he never HAD to transform except once. He did it to intimidate people and to amuse himself.

I agree about cutting out the 3rd form. The rest work, even the final final form where he bulks up. It's a lot like Trunks' transformation in that he has a lot more strength but no idea how to use it properly.

I suppose those are good points, but my problem with that is that it’s really underwhelming then after all the buildup that Freeza gets as this impossible wall of power only to be consistently fooled by a group of weirdo ragtag fighters who shouldn’t matter to him whatsoever.

It’s not like the situation with Raditz, who was a low level fighter with limited experience and only had his gut to go off of, Freeza was an emperor ruling a good fraction of the universe, and who was portrayed as sufficiently cunning and intelligent.

Is any of this actually true though?

He's fooled but he's never actually hurt to any substantial degree. He's not a great fighter whose cunning consists of killing people or threats to keep them in line. he's so strong that he doesn't have to use his intelligence to outmaneuver people.

Raditz is actually a fighter with a lot of experience. Moreso than even Goku.

[WittyUsername]

It’s somewhat debatable how skilled of a fighter Raditz actually is. He was completely helpless when Goku grabbed his tail, even though Goku himself overcame that weakness when he was a kid, and and Vegeta and Nappa didn’t have that weakness either.

Let’s be honest though, when it comes to the latter parts of Dragon Ball, “skill” doesn’t really matter much. It’s all about who has the higher power level. For all the talk about how Dragon Ball is a martial arts series, there’s very little actual martial arts.

[ABED]

It’s somewhat debatable how skilled of a fighter Raditz actually is. He was completely helpless when Goku grabbed his tail, even though Goku himself overcame that weakness when he was a kid, and and Vegeta and Nappa didn’t have that weakness either.

Let’s be honest though, when it comes to the latter parts of Dragon Ball, “skill” doesn’t really matter much. It’s all about who has the higher power level. For all the talk about how Dragon Ball is a martial arts series, there’s very little actual martial arts.

My bad. I was referring purely to the length of time Raditz has been fighting. Clearly Goku has more vaired experiences fighting and a more complete understanding of martial arts than Raditz, he just lacked the power in their encounter.

As for martial arts in DB, ki blasts and flight and things of that nature are martial arts.

[90sDBZ]

I completely disagree.

I like that he has so many forms. It adds to the sense of dread, like when he's in his 2nd form and reveals he can transform twice more. It really hits home that there's nothing any of them can do, and that they've messed with the wrong guy this time.

And all of his forms look cool.

[WittyUsername]

As for martial arts in DB, ki blasts and flight and things of that nature are martial arts.

Sure, but as the series goes on, they start to feel less like martial arts and more like superpowers. I mean, even low level grunts in Freeza’s forces seem to at least be capable of flight, and Freeza himself is obviously extremely proficient in ki attacks, despite his supposed lack of skill or knowledge in the principles of martial arts.

[ABED]

As for martial arts in DB, ki blasts and flight and things of that nature are martial arts.

Sure, but as the series goes on, they start to feel less like martial arts and more like superpowers. I mean, even low level grunts in Freeza’s forces seem to at least be capable of flight, and Freeza himself is obviously extremely proficient in ki attacks, despite his supposed lack of skill or knowledge in the principles of martial arts.

Because enemies are on average stronger.

Freeza doesn't have any understanding, he's just naturally adept at certain aspects. He lacks refinement. It's all martial arts. Even if they are superpowers, they are fighting using superpowers. Martial Arts is the art of fighting.

[MasenkoHA]

. For all the talk about how Dragon Ball is a martial arts series, there’s very little actual martial arts.

I mean yeah except for literally the entire series.

[WittyUsername]

. For all the talk about how Dragon Ball is a martial arts series, there’s very little actual martial arts.

I mean yeah except for literally the entire series.

Fights in the later parts of Dragon Ball are flashy light shows where the winner is the one with the higher power level. I wouldn’t really call that “martial arts.” The fighting is too simplistic. There’s not really any sense that skill or strategy actually matter.

[GhostEmperorX]

I mean, you might not call it that personally, but that still ends up being what it is. Like, what else could it be called?
They still mostly have to do training to get to those levels, and it isn't mainly a matter of strength training either (something made clear many times during the series). There happens to be a whole section of Martial Arts media with all the same devices and elements out there, too... one from which the franchise still happens to be pulling stuff from to this day...

[ABED]

. For all the talk about how Dragon Ball is a martial arts series, there’s very little actual martial arts.

I mean yeah except for literally the entire series.

Fights in the later parts of Dragon Ball are flashy light shows where the winner is the one with the higher power level. I wouldn’t really call that “martial arts.” The fighting is too simplistic. There’s not really any sense that skill or strategy actually matter.

This isn't true. Buu was stronger than anyone he comes up against, and while Gohan was stronger than Cell, Gohan's shattered arm put him at a severe disadvantage. The heroes usually won due to a numbers game, and yes, a strategy. And whether you call it martial arts or not, it is.

[WittyUsername]

I mean yeah except for literally the entire series.

Fights in the later parts of Dragon Ball are flashy light shows where the winner is the one with the higher power level. I wouldn’t really call that “martial arts.” The fighting is too simplistic. There’s not really any sense that skill or strategy actually matter.

This isn't true. Buu was stronger than anyone he comes up against, and while Gohan was stronger than Cell, Gohan's shattered arm put him at a severe disadvantage. The heroes usually won due to a numbers game, and yes, a strategy. And whether you call it martial arts or not, it is.

Boo gets overwhelmed at several points by stronger opponents and has to resort to absorption to keep going, but regardless, his final defeat is because Goku throws a Genki Dama at him. As far as strategies go, that’s pretty basic.

[Cure Dragon 255]

The topic creator is right, the whole transformation thing is silly, contrived and shoddily written... But it is mega popular and most people loved it. Now I AM NOT saying popular equals good, but if you wanna be that stringent you shouldnt be reading Dragon Ball. Its not War And Peace or Anna Karenina.

[MasenkoHA]

. For all the talk about how Dragon Ball is a martial arts series, there’s very little actual martial arts.

I mean yeah except for literally the entire series.

Fights in the later parts of Dragon Ball are flashy light shows where the winner is the one with the higher power level. I wouldn’t really call that “martial arts.” The fighting is too simplistic. There’s not really any sense that skill or strategy actually matter.

There's not enough strategy in these fights =/= its not martial arts. It's still martial arts.

And people way over exaggerate the usage of ki blast (which in the confines of Dragon Ball is still martial arts but whatever). Yes there is a lot of it from the Tenshinhan arc onwards but so many people make it sound like the fights are nothing but characters standing in one spot and firing ki beams at each other. The hand to hand combat never goes away at any point

[WittyUsername]

I mean yeah except for literally the entire series.

Fights in the later parts of Dragon Ball are flashy light shows where the winner is the one with the higher power level. I wouldn’t really call that “martial arts.” The fighting is too simplistic. There’s not really any sense that skill or strategy actually matter.

There's not enough strategy in these fights =/= its not martial arts. It's still martial arts.

And people way over exaggerate the usage of ki blast (which in the confines of Dragon Ball is still martial arts but whatever). Yes there is a lot of it from the Tenshinhan arc onwards but so many people make it sound like the fights are nothing but characters standing in one spot and firing ki beams at each other. The hand to hand combat never goes away at any point

I mean, sure, it’s technically martial arts in-universe. It’s just obvious that Toriyama didn’t put much thought into it beyond “the stronger character wins.” It’s all very basic. The characters all more or less fight the same.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Fights in the later parts of Dragon Ball are flashy light shows where the winner is the one with the higher power level. I wouldn’t really call that “martial arts.” The fighting is too simplistic. There’s not really any sense that skill or strategy actually matter.

There's not enough strategy in these fights =/= its not martial arts. It's still martial arts.

And people way over exaggerate the usage of ki blast (which in the confines of Dragon Ball is still martial arts but whatever). Yes there is a lot of it from the Tenshinhan arc onwards but so many people make it sound like the fights are nothing but characters standing in one spot and firing ki beams at each other. The hand to hand combat never goes away at any point

I mean, sure, it’s technically martial arts in-universe. It’s just obvious that Toriyama didn’t put much thought into it beyond “the stronger character wins.” It’s all very basic. The characters all more or less fight the same.

You assume your western point of view where fights and ki blasts are scifi and that counts as "basic". But Toriyama's Eastern view is that the Wuxia and Kung Fu stuff IS THE BASICS. Sci Fi complicates it more instead of less.