Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu literally threatened two timelines.

Why is this such a big deal? He was wearing the Time Ring before becoming Infinite Zamasu. Who's to say he didn't just merge with the thing and that granted him the ability to affect multiple timelines? Sure, that isn't stated anywhere, but neither is it stated that he could do that stuff because of his raw power.

This is just Splitting hairs.

Yeah, it's kind of inconsistent but Zeno doesn't need to actually follow the fighters to be stronger than them anyways. The other fighters might have better perception than them but he still has the bigger attack potency. I don't think Dyspo could defeat Zeno if he were to throw hands with him, so why is this even a discussion?

How Zeno uses his technique on time if someone like Dyspo can blitz him (assuming Zeno is not immortal and can be killed)?

Even at the end of the FT arc, Goku and co. had time to evacuate the entire timeline before Zeno actually used his technique.

Why can Zeno be placed at the top thanks to his hax (not physical strength) but not Infinite Zamasu?

[ZombieVito]

Why is this such a big deal? He was wearing the Time Ring before becoming Infinite Zamasu. Who's to say he didn't just merge with the thing and that granted him the ability to affect multiple timelines? Sure, that isn't stated anywhere, but neither is it stated that he could do that stuff because of his raw power.

That's not how the Time Ring works. You can only move forward in time and only return to the timeline the ring belong to. Goku Black's Time Ring can't travel to the present timeline.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Spoiler:

What's the general consensus on this line from Beerus, again?

Is it enough to explain why he's always ahead of everyone regardless of the amount of power they gain?

Or is this Beerus the same as he was during the GoD battle royale

[Hugo Boss]

In my viewpoint, this line only reinforces that Ultra Ego is, in fact, a suitable way to keep ever increasing battle power, but as Vegeta’s fight suggests, in practice, the technique has a limit and Vegeta might have to figure out the best way to make it work out for him, like Goku is doing with Ultra Instinct.

As for Beerus, in the last chapter, he challenges Goku into surpassing him again, so at least he considers this a possibility.

[ZombieVito]

Spoiler:

What's the general consensus on this line from Beerus, again?

Is it enough to explain why he's always ahead of everyone regardless of the amount of power they gain?

Or is this Beerus the same as he was during the GoD battle royale

It's one of Toyo's rare instances of brilliance. It perfectly explains how Beerus can still be ahead of Goku and Vegeta while respecting what happened in the ToP. As Whis is always in UI, I suspect Beerus is always in UE.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Since we were talking about tier lists, this is how I view things currently.

Blue Fusions
Broly
Beerus
Freeza ~ Gohan

Cell Max ~ Gas
Goku ~ Vegeta ~ Piccolo
Granolah
Moro
Jiren

Gammas
Merged Zamasu
Kefla
Android 17

Beerus has gotten stronger since the ToP. Broly hasn't since he just started his training, he's just been this strong all along apparently.

Seems like next chapter will put Goku and Gohan in the same league, which would bump Piccolo down to at least Granolah level.

Spoiler:

What's the general consensus on this line from Beerus, again?

Is it enough to explain why he's always ahead of everyone regardless of the amount of power they gain?

Or is this Beerus the same as he was during the GoD battle royale

It's not just the line as much as the whole context behind it. Beerus taught Vegeta UE.

If this is the same Beerus from the ToP, then he must have been leagues above Belmond. Not necessarily 100x, but at least 2-3x which is a lot.

[Mr Baggins]

Since we were talking about tier lists, this is how I view things currently.

Agreed with almost everything here except Gas.

I think it's time we put Gas below Goku and Vegeta at this point in their training, and below Cell Max by proxy. His zombie form was so brittle his body parts were getting destroyed by simple punches and kicks. He may have slightly more raw power, but likely not enough to finish someone on their level off before his body literally falls apart.

[Koitsukai]

I actually think there are reasons to believe Broly got stronger post movie due to his biology, but not to explain his current placement at the top.

He never had any fights or experiences that might've secured him a zenkai, not until coming to Earth, in that regard, his body should be comparable to pre-Z Goku, he is like a brand new saiyacar. So, his zenkai cave should be mostly unexplored, and he did take the beating of a lifetime.
Being the LSS, he should have all the perks of his race, so a huge zenkai should've taken place. In fact, I wonder if a LSS wouldn't get bigger zenkais or if they even have a zenkai limit like a regular saiyan.

In any case, he should've gotten stronger just by surviving Gogeta Blue. Vegeta's base form got way stronger with Pybara, yet he still needs SS to fight base Broly like in the movie, so I'd say both grew stronger in order to keep the gap the same.

[ZombieVito]

Since we were talking about tier lists, this is how I view things currently.

Blue Fusions
Broly
Beerus
Freeza ~ Gohan

Cell Max ~ Gas
Goku ~ Vegeta ~ Piccolo
Granolah
Moro
Jiren

Gammas
Merged Zamasu
Kefla
Android 17

Beerus has gotten stronger since the ToP. Broly hasn't since he just started his training, he's just been this strong all along apparently.

Seems like next chapter will put Goku and Gohan in the same league, which would bump Piccolo down to at least Granolah level.

Spoiler:

What's the general consensus on this line from Beerus, again?

Is it enough to explain why he's always ahead of everyone regardless of the amount of power they gain?

Or is this Beerus the same as he was during the GoD battle royale

It's not just the line as much as the whole context behind it. Beerus taught Vegeta UE.

If this is the same Beerus from the ToP, then he must have been leagues above Belmond. Not necessarily 100x, but at least 2-3x which is a lot.

I find it hard to believe Goku and Vegeta didn't surpass Gas in 2 years.

[QuakingStar]

I actually think there are reasons to believe Broly got stronger post movie due to his biology, but not to explain his current placement at the top.

He never had any fights or experiences that might've secured him a zenkai, not until coming to Earth, in that regard, his body should be comparable to pre-Z Goku, he is like a brand new saiyacar. So, his zenkai cave should be mostly unexplored, and he did take the beating of a lifetime.
Being the LSS, he should have all the perks of his race, so a huge zenkai should've taken place. In fact, I wonder if a LSS wouldn't get bigger zenkais or if they even have a zenkai limit like a regular saiyan.

In any case, he should've gotten stronger just by surviving Gogeta Blue. Vegeta's base form got way stronger with Pybara, yet he still needs SS to fight base Broly like in the movie, so I'd say both grew stronger in order to keep the gap the same.

Broly definitely got stronger due to "zenkai". Broly is also in his 50's though so idk about him having "fresh" zenkai cave or anything, that's yet to be proven though in this case this could very well be Broly's equivalent to the Zenkai Goku got on Namek which was his biggest yet overall going from 90,000 to 3,000,000.

and somebody said Beerus was using UE the whole time, though I doubt that because Beerus also had to show Vegeta UE and have Vegeta copy it and he referred to UE as a technique, so I doubt Beerus is in UE the whole time.

[Thani]

But when did Broly got to near death? He was pummeled, but didn't seem very hurt, and Gogeta's last kamehameha never hit him. All other instances of "zenkais" happened after the saiyans body was left near death.

Broly came close to dying, but not because of damage. Gogeta's kamehameha might have killed him outright instead of leaving his body almost dead, so avoiding that shouldn't give him a zenkai.

[Mr Baggins]

Zenkai hasn't been a thing in the story for ages and I doubt any of the writers were thinking about it. The more obvious answer is that FPSS Broly was always just that strong, which is why they have him busting through dimensions and shit along with statements placing him over Beerus since his introduction.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think asking "What are the writers thinking" is a good stance because they're not even thinking at all. Last time we saw Ultimate Gohan he was leagues behind Blue Goku but now he's "on par".

Watching DBSB you'd think it was just Broly >= Beerus, but in the manga it's actually Broly >>> Beerus (Pre UE) so it is a bit weird. Broly getting a Zenkai is a happy coincidence that would help explain this.

I find it hard to believe Goku and Vegeta didn't surpass Gas in 2 years.

Maybe, but no need to bloat the scale even more based on a hunch.

I think it's time we put Gas below Goku and Vegeta at this point in their training, and below Cell Max by proxy. His zombie form was so brittle his body parts were getting destroyed by simple punches and kicks. He may have slightly more raw power, but likely not enough to finish someone on their level off before his body literally falls apart.

Well this is a strength comparison, but I remember Gas was giving Goku and Vegeta quite a hard time even in his zombified state.

[Mr Baggins]

I don't think asking "What are the writers thinking" is a good stance because they're not even thinking at all. Last time we saw Ultimate Gohan he was leagues behind Blue Goku but now he's "on par".

It's the only appropriate stance. What happens to fictional characters is decided by the whims of authorial intent alone.

Ultimate Gohan has never been a static power boost, and there is no such thing as "pre UE" Beerus.

Well this is a strength comparison, but I remember Gas was giving Goku and Vegeta quite a hard time even in his zombified state.

Strength encompasses more than just raw offensive power. Zombie Gas didn't affect Goku and Vegeta as much as they affected him in the short time they fought. Freeza finished him off, but the narrative makes it clear that he didn't have much time left.

[Hugo Boss]

I think it’s likely that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Zombie Gas, but I’m not entirely certain about it myself. Maybe this month chapter will shed some light on the subject.

About Broly having a zenkai, not likely, since he didn’t underwent the same kind of experience that warranted such power-ups for the other Saiyans. Instead, his inner potential is covered by rage and transformations.

[Miracles]

The canon has Beerus entering the Dragonball franchise above every mortal in the universe in Battle of gods. Goku even pondered that getting stronger through fusion wouldn't even be enough to handle Beerus. This narrative hasn't changed all the way up to the Super Hero movie. As it was stated that Beerus was the strongest in the universe behind Whis back in Battle of Gods, once again said to be the strongest in Super Hero. The fact is, even fusions that have been shown do not go above Beerus on the power scale.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's the only appropriate stance. What happens to fictional characters is decided by the whims of authorial intent alone.

Ultimate Gohan has never been a static power boost, and there is no such thing as "pre UE" Beerus.

Static boost or not, Gohan hasn't done any training but he's suddenly stronger than before.

I think you're getting caught up with semantics here on the "pre "UE" thing. Point is, Beerus is essentially as strong as he wants to be, so that leaves Broly in a weird position.

[QuakingStar]

But when did Broly got to near death? He was pummeled, but didn't seem very hurt, and Gogeta's last kamehameha never hit him. All other instances of "zenkais" happened after the saiyans body was left near death.

Broly came close to dying, but not because of damage. Gogeta's kamehameha might have killed him outright instead of leaving his body almost dead, so avoiding that shouldn't give him a zenkai.

Gogeta beat the dogshit out of him and set a nuke off in his chest. He was so badly hurt that he reverted to SS, the novel explains that part more clearly. He may not have been nearly dead but he should have still gotten stronger after. Besides literally all he has to do is eat, sleep, and train on his home planet so for 2 whole years that's all he did anyway.

For Ultimate Gohan, his own innate potential and latent power is already limitless. Though, clearly as of DBS Ultimate does not truly draw into his full potential either that or he will continually get stronger the more he uses Ultimate DUE to his potential and Beast just taps into it deeper. Toriyama even joked saying he didn't know what he would do when Gohan gets another transformation so Beast likely isn't even the last stage of his "Ultimate" series of forms either.

Gohan is the Anakin Skywalker of DB in terms of potential and latent power, but he is NOT the MC and thats probably why they struggle to utilize him properly? idk.

About Beerus, he can't always BE in UE if he has to have Vegeta watch him use it and he himself describes it as a Technique, which Gods of Destruction do and can use. I think Beerus is simply insanely strong already, and then when he needs to get super serious he taps into UI and that's why Moro and others that were such incredible threats Beerus did not treat like threats to himself.. even if they surpassed his base level of power he has a gargantuan power up he can tap into. This is probably why not one of them has reached him yet.

[Yuji]

I may be proven wrong over the next few months but I very much doubt we'll see Gohan one shotting Goku to place him at Freeza's level.

[Mr Baggins]

Static boost or not, Gohan hasn't done any training but he's suddenly stronger than before.

No, that's completely wrong.

It's established twice in the movie/arc that although Gohan supposedly became rusty enough to lose Ultimate, he'd still been practicing and training to some degree before the story began. If his base form grew stronger than before, it stands to reason Ultimate would as well even if it was a fixed boost.

But it's not a fixed boost. Ultimate isn't just another transformation, it's a manifestation of Gohan's potential that never caps out. That's the whole point.

I think you're getting caught up with semantics here on the "pre "UE" thing. Point is, Beerus is essentially as strong as he wants to be, so that leaves Broly in a weird position.

This isn't semantics. I don't think you're following. You said Beerus grew stronger since the Tournament of Power, but that isn't implied anywhere. The beginning of that arc placed him above his fellow GoDs and literally said he was a "million years" above completed Blue.

If Goku and co. had surpassed or come near Beerus at any point, it would have been made clear in the manga. To the contrary, January's chapter puts this nail in the coffin and confirms he never has.

I may be proven wrong over the next few months but I very much doubt we'll see Gohan one shotting Goku to place him at Freeza's level.

You're likely correct. If they're still framing Freeza as the next big threat, I don't think they'll present the 'answer' to it this soon and there's probably a reason Broly is conveniently gimped right now.