Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

lol, I'm taking what is said at face value. Posters don't even realize I'm not choosing a side. Just stating the facts that we know in context. I'm giving no conclusions on what Goku can use, has developed, or not in his training with Silver Haired. There has been bad reading within the DB fandom [forums specifically]. I'm just waiting for those certain clowns to claim bad writing when they just read it wrong.

[Koitsukai]

I doubt there's another interpretation to Goku's "let's use our best techniques, no point taking our time" that implies he has yet another power-up up his sleeve. There's no semanticizing that panel, he doesn't SEEM to think that's his best move, looks pretty confident that's his best trick to me.

[picc]

Philosophical question.

Do any of you ever wonder why these same arguments over the decades never seem to end? Just recycle over and over again?

Its because even when something is said outright, in plain and simple terms, it's still not good enough for DB fans. It almost seems like people don't want there to be an answer to our questions. Its like we forget that these characters don't actually exist, and none of this is really happening. Every line of dialogue is actually coming from the writer of the series and creator of the characters. The one person who would actually know what the reality of the DB universe is.

So if a character can flatly say something and its still not accepted, I'm not sure how we can expect things with any ambiguity to ever be agreed on. Does it make you question the point of these debates at all when there can't even be a resolution on things that are stated in as close to plain English as possible?

I don't mean just this UI thing. Plenty of other things as well. I've seen multi-page arguments here over things that couldn't have been stated more clearly. Things AT would probably be flabbergasted by if he found out there was confusion about.

Is it that resolution isn't actually the point of these debates, and its just fun to engage in the rhetoric? To explore every avenue with devils advocacy because having an answer is boring?

Serious question. I'm genuinely curious.

I think the above is an understandable position to have btw, it is arguably better to know less and thus drive forum discussion and thought. I'm not trying to buzz kill at all, its just stood out to me over the years here how eager we seem to be to reject clarity.

[Hugo Boss]

Possible reasons:

- Lack of certain reading comprehension skills:
1. Identifying key details, facts, and main ideas.
2. Making logical deductions and inferences based on the information provided in the text.
3. Questioning the author’s perspective, analyzing and evaluating the text, including its arguments, tone, and underlying assumptions.
4. Identifying the most important information while omitting irrelevant details.
5. Understanding the context in which the text is written: this includes considering factors such as the author's background, purpose for writing, and the historical or cultural context in which the text was produced.
6. Understanding the meanings of words within the context of the passage.

(Personal note: improving those skills requires practice and exposure to a variety of texts across different genres and topics, which unfortunately very few people have the time and energy to do, sometimes they aren’t at fault.)

- Psychological and emotional factors: fragile ego, fear of judgment, lack of communication skills, or denial.

(In any case, it's essential to approach these situations with empathy and understanding, encouraging the person to acknowledge their areas of improvement and offering support to help them develop their critical reading and fact-checking skills, instead of mocking the person's deficiencies, focusing solely on correcting their faults, using passive-aggressive language when addressing the person's concerns, which in the end will only make the person feel ashamed, inadequate, or devalued, making it harder for them to acknowledge their deficiencies and seek help to improve.)

[Ziegander]

Philosophical question.

Do any of you ever wonder why these same arguments over the decades never seem to end? Just recycle over and over again?

Its because even when something is said outright, in plain and simple terms, it's still not good enough for DB fans. It almost seems like people don't want there to be an answer to our questions. Its like we forget that these characters don't actually exist, and none of this is really happening. Every line of dialogue is actually coming from the writer of the series and creator of the characters. The one person who would actually know what the reality of the DB universe is.

No, it's because the writers are wildly inconsistent and say things that they immediately retcon in the next chapter. Remember how many times Frieza was fighting with his full power? How often Goku has claimed exactly the same? How often the writers or editors or executives make some claim about something that turns out to be wildly exaggerated if not a flat out lie?

"Mastered" UI is, itself, a bullshit term. He hasn't mastered anything. There are tiers to his mastery that he's not even close to reaching yet. So why should anyone trust Goku when he says he's going into his strongest form when he's not even using autonomous movement and Whis tells Beerus that it "seems" to be his best trick?

It's nonsense to argue endlessly over it, sure, but let's not act like the characters, the writers, or any of the staff involved in Dragon Ball are trustworthy commentators on, well, Dragon Ball.

[QuakingStar]

Some things are cut and dry, but then another chapter or statement is made that retcons it. This is why people have doubts. As of chapter 102 Goku's current Silver UI is his best thing he has. Can that change in the coming chapters? Yes it can. I think the arguing is just people LOOKING to argue.

[Miracles]

Also what do you guys think about this scenario brought up in fanverse...?





The dispute is; if Moro didn't want Vegeta to touch him with Spirit Fission because he would of caused damage to make the technique work against Moro. Then how in the world is Moro 7-3 going to tag and damage a current fusion dance or Patora merge with Goku and Vegeta?

Thoughts?

[LoganForkHands73]

Philosophical question.

Do any of you ever wonder why these same arguments over the decades never seem to end? Just recycle over and over again?

I think it's because we're all a bit autistic

In all seriousness, it's a combination of boredom and tribalism. Everybody wants to be on a team. The fact that Dragon Ball often is such a blunt, straightforward series can occasionally be part of the problem. Take Goku calling Moro the toughest opponent he's ever faced. That's a pretty unambiguous statement, but we all know Beerus exists and there are many fans who would rather carry on as if Jiren and Broly are still top dogs on the mortal plane. Outside of this one manga-exclusive statement, many creators still implicitly refer to Broly as Goku's strongest (mortal) opponent. It's the same deal with the eternal Kid Buu vs Super Buu debates. There are a few statements that call Kid Buu the strongest form of Majin Buu, and since Kid Buu is more popular, cue thousands of fans rationalising those statements. As tired as many of these arguments are, they can be a stimulating diversion for some people who like to heatedly debate over useless topics.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The dispute is; if Moro didn't want Vegeta to touch him with Spirit Fission because he would of caused damage to make the technique work against Moro. Then how in the world is Moro 7-3 going to tag and damage a current fusion dance or Patora merge with Goku and Vegeta?

Thoughts?

Moro could probably use his magic to slow down Gogeta/Vegetto somehow. Remember he pinned down UIO Goku? That or Piccolo just has the IQ of your average Fanverse poster.

Moro > Fusion is completely off the table. Piccolo's line is basically "Fusion would've been our trump card if not for Spirit Fission". If Moro is outright stronger than fusion

Philosophical question.

Do any of you ever wonder why these same arguments over the decades never seem to end? Just recycle over and over again?

Its because even when something is said outright, in plain and simple terms, it's still not good enough for DB fans. It almost seems like people don't want there to be an answer to our questions. Its like we forget that these characters don't actually exist, and none of this is really happening. Every line of dialogue is actually coming from the writer of the series and creator of the characters. The one person who would actually know what the reality of the DB universe is.

So if a character can flatly say something and its still not accepted, I'm not sure how we can expect things with any ambiguity to ever be agreed on. Does it make you question the point of these debates at all when there can't even be a resolution on things that are stated in as close to plain English as possible?

I don't mean just this UI thing. Plenty of other things as well. I've seen multi-page arguments here over things that couldn't have been stated more clearly. Things AT would probably be flabbergasted by if he found out there was confusion about.

Is it that resolution isn't actually the point of these debates, and its just fun to engage in the rhetoric? To explore every avenue with devils advocacy because having an answer is boring?

Serious question. I'm genuinely curious.

I think the above is an understandable position to have btw, it is arguably better to know less and thus drive forum discussion and thought. I'm not trying to buzz kill at all, its just stood out to me over the years here how eager we seem to be to reject clarity.

The interesting part for me is seeing the thought of different people in the subject. I think it's funny how something can be spelled in the most obvious way possible but people will find different ways to read it. That's basically what art (and communication as a whole) is, isn't it?

I don't really care about the hardcore debating part. Once I get what the person is talking about, I just move on. I'm more interested in changing my own mind than someone else's. Discussing is like reading a book for me. When I make a post affirming something it's not really a "Debate me." kind of attitude as much as a "What you guys think about this?" attitude.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Philosophical question.

Do any of you ever wonder why these same arguments over the decades never seem to end? Just recycle over and over again?

At least in part, when looking at Dragon Ball Super I would say it's because of a few things:

• Deliberate Ambiguity/Incomplete Information. The story rarely immediately spells out all relevant data pertaining to a thing under discussion (be it an ongoing strength relationship, details of a transformation, or whatever else), for the sake of, y'know, telling a story rather than just being an infodump, and also allowing scope for further development later on by not stating anything too strongly at first (so, often maintaining at least a little ambiguity). Sometimes this is also exacerbated by translation choices, which may inadvertently slant interpretation in a way that the original-language material does not necessarily indicate.
• Quick-Setting Terms of Discussion. For convenience of discussion in the interim, the fanbase tends to convert things into a kind of "shorthand" that quickly ossifies into an accepted set of definitions/terms/assumptions defining the scope of discussion. This shorthand then gets read back into the story as presented, with the tacit assumption that the product of fan discussion is what the story is trying to say, when it isn't necessarily so. Discussion of (and speculation about) 'the new thing' is always a feature of fan discussion and moves much more quickly than new story material, so fans reach either consensus or (more likely) entrenched positions on a topic very "early" on. To be fair, it's intrinsic to the nature of discussion to be saying something rather than conceding that in the interim it might be better to say nothing.
• Consequent Indigestibility of New Information. Crucially, however, when new information comes along the fanbase tries to squeeze it into the framework of what it has already "established" for itself. Often, rather than prompting a reassessment of the story on these terms, the fanbase will either charge the original work with inconsistency, or will try to "adopt" the new material to a set of definitions that, when coined by the fanbase, meant something else. The application of old discussion positions to new material reduplicates misunderstanding, and proves almost impossible to shift.

Case in point (this is not a reply to Ziegander as such; I'm using a comment of his to illustrate the above point):

"Mastered" UI is, itself, a bullshit term. He hasn't mastered anything. There are tiers to his mastery that he's not even close to reaching yet.

To the best of my knowledge the story has never said that Goku has "Mastered" Ultra Instinct; not even when he gains the ability to use it at will in the Moro arc. It has used the terms 完全な{る} (Kanzen'na{ru}) or 完成 (Kansei) to refer to Goku's silver-haired Ultra Instinct. These statements mean "completed" (in the sense of achieving and using the whole technique, and not partial manifestations like "Omen" is), and does not necessarily indicate achieving an unsurpassable proficiency in it.

Viz's English rendering tends towards words like "perfected" (which is indeed another potential meaning of those terms), which is very absolute-sounding, with connotations of not being susceptible of any improvement at all. And the English has also used "mastered" for simply another use of 完成 in the original when referring specifically to the silver-haired form (Chapter 59), which has solidified that association in English. And, to be fair, Whis has occasionally made contrasts between Omen and the Silver-Haired Ultra Instinct that can be interpreted as flatly dichotomising between levels of achievement. But much of the interpretive work here was done by fans in the interim, calling it "Mastered Ultra Instinct" or "MUI" for short, and investing the discussion with the idea that once he achieved Ultra Instinct properly and at will, Goku's work would be done. The idea of Goku "Mastering" Ultra Instinct isn't really the story's term or set of concepts, yet - that is the product of, and belongs to, fan discussion.

So when the story pulls moves that it left enough space for, like Goku being able to refine his technique with Ultra Instinct still further, and do things like return to "Omen" and integrate it with his personality more effectively and to leapfrog the performance of the silver-haired form (while having that form still be classed as "stronger", as it was even when he first used "True" Ultra Instinct against Gas - incidentally, it's a very Dragon Ball Super move to have a 'lower' form trump a 'higher' form for dealing more effectively with a particular scenario or problem, so in that sense this is just a well-established narrative move that shouldn't perplex to the degree that it seems to), the fanbase has a very difficult time with accommodating these changes, still using terms like "MUI", implicitly viewing the technique the same way they were some years ago, and making out like the writers are just being hopelessly inconsistent because it doesn't line up with what was thought to be the case previously.

That's not to say new developments on the page have no 'jagged edges' at all, but a lot of what seems like a problem, and continues to be problematic in discussion, is the concepts and terms the fanbase brought to the discussion and can't bring themselves to simply jettison or otherwise revise wholesale.

[Mr Baggins]

As tired as many of these arguments are, they can be a stimulating diversion for some people who like to heatedly debate over useless topics.

Personally, what draws me to this topic in particular over something like the "All-Purpose Versus" thread is that it's less based in pointless hypotheticals, and more just about what kind of broad strength hierarchy the writers are trying to adhere to at the moment. Sometimes, that's a bit obfuscated by production issues (see: Toriyama writing Super Hero well before the post-ToP arcs in the manga, despite also being somewhat involved in the manga). Sometimes, it's the premise of whole story arcs in Super. I think it's fun to try and piece together, even if it is surface level.

I don't really have any investment in this stuff beyond that, and will always scoff at the notion of power scalers consuming Dragon Ball with their calculators in hand. With that said, I'll admit my Achilles heel is occasionally turning into a version of the "old man yells at cloud" meme when I think someone's being just a little too dishonest about the thrust of the writing. My intention has always been to discuss, not debate.

I should probably take a break from this thread, given how circular it indeed has become.

[LoganForkHands73]

As tired as many of these arguments are, they can be a stimulating diversion for some people who like to heatedly debate over useless topics.

Personally, what draws me to this topic in particular over something like the "All-Purpose Versus" thread is that it's less based in pointless hypotheticals, and more just about what kind of broad strength hierarchy the writers are trying to adhere to at the moment. Sometimes, that's a bit obfuscated by production issues (see: Toriyama writing Super Hero well before the post-ToP arcs in the manga, despite also being somewhat involved in the manga). Sometimes, it's the premise of whole story arcs in Super. I think it's fun to try and piece together, even if it is surface level.

I don't really have any investment in this stuff beyond that, and will always scoff at the notion of power scalers consuming Dragon Ball with their calculators in hand. With that said, I'll admit my Achilles heel is occasionally turning into a version of the "old man yells at cloud" meme when I think someone's being just a little too dishonest about the thrust of the writing. My intention has always been to discuss, not debate.

I should probably take a break from this thread, given how circular it indeed has become.

I think any variation beyond the plain "who's stronger, who would win" questions is more entertaining to consider these days. The broad hierarchies can be more fun to consider as they are constantly shifting.

[QuakingStar]

In terms of who has the most latent power and potential Toriyama has repeatedly made it clear that Gohan is the one. That's about the only solid thing nowadays besides Beerus being the strongest not including the Angels, and the mortals have yet to reach him.

[Miracles]

The dispute is; if Moro didn't want Vegeta to touch him with Spirit Fission because he would of caused damage to make the technique work against Moro. Then how in the world is Moro 7-3 going to tag and damage a current fusion dance or Patora merge with Goku and Vegeta?

Thoughts?

Moro could probably use his magic to slow down Gogeta/Vegetto somehow. Remember he pinned down UIO Goku? That or Piccolo just has the IQ of your average Fanverse poster.

Moro > Fusion is completely off the table. Piccolo's line is basically "Fusion would've been our trump card if not for Spirit Fission". If Moro is outright stronger than fusion.

For Spirit Fission to work it has to cause damage. In order to cause damage Moro7-3 would need to be fast enough to do so. So it is saying that Moro 7-3 is in a current fusion's league.

[QuakingStar]

The dispute is; if Moro didn't want Vegeta to touch him with Spirit Fission because he would of caused damage to make the technique work against Moro. Then how in the world is Moro 7-3 going to tag and damage a current fusion dance or Patora merge with Goku and Vegeta?

Thoughts?

Moro could probably use his magic to slow down Gogeta/Vegetto somehow. Remember he pinned down UIO Goku? That or Piccolo just has the IQ of your average Fanverse poster.

Moro > Fusion is completely off the table. Piccolo's line is basically "Fusion would've been our trump card if not for Spirit Fission". If Moro is outright stronger than fusion.

For Spirit Fission to work it has to cause damage. In order to cause damage Moro7-3 would need to be fast enough to do so. So it is saying that Moro 7-3 is in a current fusion's league.

Weren't there moments where Vegeta's hits were doing no damage at all but Vegeta wasn't worried? Him simply landing hits was weakening Moro via Spirit Fission and it got to the point that he was finally able to hurt Moro. I think even blocking an attack from Moro-73 instead of dodging would help Moro-73. His magic can also make it easier to make happen, he's crafty enough.

[Koitsukai]

The Moro-fusion situation got me thinking.
I guess, within the concept of Moro being above Broly, Gogeta having issues landing a blow on Moro made sense, it was a possibility, but now that Broly's FP is implied to be above all the powers seen so far, except Freeza's and Beerus', and Gogeta wiped his ass with said power, not only that, his fusees were already way stronger than vs Broly, then Gogeta should've been able to deal with Moro even easier than Gas vs Vegeta. Moro73 should not be able to even see Gogeta coming, let alone do something not even Broly could. His magic failed to do shit to UI Goku.

Either, the powers seen by the end of the Moro arc were above those on Planet Cereal (as in Goku's UI wasn't as good as vs Moro due to reasons), or Toyo really wanted to surpass Broly but had to back off. I'm open to a third in-universe interpretation other than "what does Piccolo know?"

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Actually, speaking about Piccolo, I've seen a lot of folks in other parts of the internet bring up the notion that Piccolo couldn't possibly know how strong Gamma 1 and 2 were because he can't sense them, nor gauge how strong Goku and Vegeta are due to not being able to sense God Ki.

I've always found this strange, as though these folks think sensing energy is the only way to tell how strong someone is.

Maybe Piccolo wouldn't get the exact specifics down, but I think he'd be a reliable source for getting a decent sense of scale for his opponents' powers given how he's an expert martial artist and can feel up the movements and degree of effort his opponents are putting in at their current level. It's the same way Goku could tell 17 was holding back against him in the anime's recruitment episode simply because he actually fought him and got a gauge for his opponent's suppression at the level of power he displayed.

I imagine this is also the intention for how Piccolo could feel that the Gammas were about as strong as SSB Goku and Vegeta, the strongest forms he knows they have as of the Broly and Super Hero films. And he's seen them fight at that level enough to know how strong it would be; this is another way, seeing how well someone fights enough can also give you an idea of how strong they are.

It kinda baffles me that many folks try to discredit Piccolo entirely on the basis of Ki sensing alone.

[Miracles]

Moro could probably use his magic to slow down Gogeta/Vegetto somehow. Remember he pinned down UIO Goku? That or Piccolo just has the IQ of your average Fanverse poster.

Moro > Fusion is completely off the table. Piccolo's line is basically "Fusion would've been our trump card if not for Spirit Fission". If Moro is outright stronger than fusion.

For Spirit Fission to work it has to cause damage. In order to cause damage Moro7-3 would need to be fast enough to do so. So it is saying that Moro 7-3 is in a current fusion's league.

Weren't there moments where Vegeta's hits were doing no damage at all but Vegeta wasn't worried? Him simply landing hits was weakening Moro via Spirit Fission and it got to the point that he was finally able to hurt Moro. I think even blocking an attack from Moro-73 instead of dodging would help Moro-73. His magic can also make it easier to make happen, he's crafty enough.

The narration has Vegeta's first hit as "barely" having any effect at all against Moro. Yet sapping spirit energy from Moro. The more Vegeta hit the weaker Moro got.

[QuakingStar]

Actually, speaking about Piccolo, I've seen a lot of folks in other parts of the internet bring up the notion that Piccolo couldn't possibly know how strong Gamma 1 and 2 were because he can't sense them, nor gauge how strong Goku and Vegeta are due to not being able to sense God Ki.

I've always found this strange, as though these folks think sensing energy is the only way to tell how strong someone is.

Maybe Piccolo wouldn't get the exact specifics down, but I think he'd be a reliable source for getting a decent sense of scale for his opponents' powers given how he's an expert martial artist and can feel up the movements and degree of effort his opponents are putting in at their current level. It's the same way Goku could tell 17 was holding back against him in the anime's recruitment episode simply because he actually fought him and got a gauge for his opponent's suppression at the level of power he displayed.

I imagine this is also the intention for how Piccolo could feel that the Gammas were about as strong as SSB Goku and Vegeta, the strongest forms he knows they have as of the Broly and Super Hero films. And he's seen them fight at that level enough to know how strong it would be; this is another way, seeing how well someone fights enough can also give you an idea of how strong they are.

It kinda baffles me that many folks try to discredit Piccolo entirely on the basis of Ki sensing alone.

He directly senses the ki of SSG Goku and focuses on it, he then focuses on Wrath State Broly and can tell that Broly is stronger. So Piccolo can sense God Ki from that point forward. The Androids have no senseable energy regardless though.

[Koitsukai]

By now, we have to accept these people, by fighting someone, can sense aproximately how much they are holding back and then guess where they would peak. Even when there's no ki to feel. Freeza did so on Namek.
The story should go full circle with this by proving it later on, like Gamma vs Ultimate Gohan. But sometimes it doesn't, like with 17 who never proves it, not until the Moro arc, and we are left with just X = 9 without all the math that put him there. Or worse, get the author say the character who said something could be wrong, instead of standing by their decision, creating precedent for the audience to opt not believe a statement.

Apparently, everybody tends to hold back and dose their energy -even those with infinite energy.