The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[NeoZ Duwang]

I'm on the "Dragon Ball has no singular canon outside of the original manga" side. The term "canon" implies that there is one correct vision, when even Super has at least two major continuities (anime and manga).

You can do it like Totally Not Mark did half a decade ago and try to figure out what's "canon" and what's "filler" by finding similarities and differences between anime and manga... but then what? You're not going to uncover a secret third version of Super that's free from non-Toriyama's influences, you're just making guess-work of what ideas came from him and what didn't, but that alone is not going to make a story that you're able to experience.

Super definetly feels more "valid" than GT and Heroes because of Toriyama, but I still can't see it as the only correct sequel for the original manga when so much of it is still done by other people, and you have more than one option of experiencing its storyline, with none of them being clearly stated to be more or less important than the other. They are all alternate versions of what could've happened with the story after Majin Boo

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Volume F, a supplementary guidebook for Resurrection F, includes the original script/screenplay written by Toriyama.

Fair, although considering Toriyama himself said it was meant to be a memo for the writers at TOEI and never intended to be a screenplay I'd still question how much of it he was happy with.

This is of course the main problem with arguing for Super's "canonicity" in particular because unlike the original run there is no true or definitive published source other than Toriyama's ideas. With the original 1986 and 1989 anime series we know they are adaptations of Toriyama's manga.

If George R.R Martin doesn't live to finish Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring would his unfinished drafts count as canon?

It can be argued which medium recreated Toriyama's vision for those arcs the best, but it cannot be argued that those arcs aren't Canon. It's a fact that they are Canon and part of Toriyama's vision.

Does Bulma's birthday party take place at Capsule Corporation or on a boat? Is your definition of canon for this material Toriyama's broad ideas and not the small details? The original run of the manga has both, the revival material had the former but lacks the latter.

[SupremeKai25]

Does Bulma's birthday party take place at Capsule Corporation or on a boat? Is your definition of canon for this material Toriyama's broad ideas and not the small details? The original run of the manga has both, the revival material had the former but lacks the latter.

This is literally what I am talking about.

It's irrelevant which medium is more Canon than the other.

The STORYLINE itself is Canon. So, it is Canon that Beerus disrupted Bulma's birthday party and fought with Goku.

My definition of "Canon" is "Any kind of storyline was that was penned or supervised in any way by Toriyama".

[GreatSaiyaman123]

First off, there is a canon for DB, but it's very loose. GT, Heroes and movies (sans the last 4) aren't canon. Promo material for DBS: Broly has flat out used the word "canon". There's definitely a main story, but many details are not specific (Does that DBZ filler episode count? No idea. What's the DBS canon, anime or manga? Both, somehow).

The real point of these canon debates is so people can know what counts and what doesn't when it comes to lore and in-universe discussion. I don't think this ever affected whether someone enjoys the series, only their understanding of it. Power level folks will go wild now because they have no idea whether certain fights are supposed to count or not. But this was mostly because of how different the anime and manga were, since then I don't think it really mattered since the anime is over.

The fact we'll never get any other stories from Toriyama himself, who despite his bad memory understands this universe better than anyone, is a turn down for many people (including me), but I think that's beyond the canon talk. It's more of a creative process thing.

Basically canon only matters for people who do power levels because they want to know if Base Goku can destroy the universe or whatever. That's the bottom of it.

[JulieYBM]

I'm kind of repeating myself here, but I really don't see the point in placing some kind of 'canon' on a pedastool, when it completely ignores whether a work of art is good. I think it's important that we keep that in mind, because it isn't some nebulous idea of 'canon' that is the connective tissue from the humanity of the creative staff to the humanity of the person experiencing that art. What does that is everthing else: the story, the characters, the visuals, the themes, etc.

Honestly, the canon talk just reminds me of the obsession with battle powers as a form of distilling art into math, rather than capturing the humanity of those involved with it.

Art is about feeling, not being right.

[FinalPilaf]

Canon is no reason to experience a work of art.

Not if you use "canon" in the sense of "what is official continuity". But when I say Toriyama "canon" it's in the sense of being the main artistic vision behind the entire Dragon Ball world.

Art is defined as an act of someone's genuine creativity, or artistic vision (and it can be everything from masterful to godawful), and while there are plenty of exceptions, it is often the case that when and original creator stops being involved in a story, that story, in todays' day and age, often becomes more about entire commities of executives pandering to an audience based on market research than on any singular artistic vision.
So far nobody has dared to take the Dragon Ball franchise is as strange directions as Toriyama (I don't personaliy LIKE all of these directions, so the issue here is not about personal preferences). I'm afraid that from now on Dragon Ball will be more and more a product, less and less art. And yes, I'm sure some of you are right now preparing to type "actually Toriyama was always willing to take editors notes and towards the end of the manga he actually wanted to call it quits but didn't because of preasure from the publisher". I know all of that, but even despite all of that, only Toriayma out of everyone involved with the franchise in any offical capacity so far have been willing to steer the series in genuinly new and personal directions. Maybe others have tried but, either due to simply respecting the already existing source material too much or due to not wanting to alienate the existing fanbase, they've mostly just regurgitated what Toriyama has already done. We're certainly not going to get any reveals from now on equalling that that the actial God of the entire universe is a tiny chibi type imp... who eventually uncerimoniously becomes two. Nobody is going to dare to re-write the structure of fictional Dragon Ball universe like that.

I feel like what has now, due to the saddest circumstances possible, happaned to the Dragon Ball story is exactly what happaned (under less sad circumstances) to the Star Wars story. We no longer get Lucas' mad but personal visions, we get products made by groups of people trying to pander to a large an audience as possible. The only somewhat artistic thing to come out of Disney Star Wars is The Last Jedi (a noble experiment from Disney, in an attempt to quench the criticism againt the previous movie so very obviously being exactly the kind of soul less pandering product that everyone feared the new Star Wars movies would be) , which sucks ass don't get me wrong, but is certainly a personal vision (just like Lucas own prequels). Everything else from disney Star Wars is the movie equallent of a McDonald's cheeseburger.

So yes, I see "Toriyama canon" as "the sincere story" of Dragon Ball. It can be good or bad but it's from the person who knows the world and the character better than anyone ever could or will, because the came from aspects of himself. Others can try to appropriate those characters and, yes, also add genuine bits of themselves, for sure, but they cannot fully grasp them the way only the man who pulled them out of his own soul can. The Dragon Ball super content we have gotten over the last few years have had various amounts of the original author in them, some none whatsoever, other so little that they can just barely be said to have anything to do with him, but it has been interspliced by indesputable Toriyama canon. He's the one that decided that Goku's new main mission was going to be to best a God of Destruction forr instance, no matter to what extent other people were then put in charge of realizing that idea. Beerus is canon to me, but if in another 10 years we get a new movie about "actually there was the even MORE powerful God of Death, whose not a cat but a dog, and his name is Brandy"... that's never going to be canon to me. And the machinery that will produce Dragon Ball content from now on will very likely not allow any of the people involved in the group to actualy produce art.

[JulieYBM]

Nobody takes Dragon Ball beyond Toriyama because their hands are tied by executive and Toriyama meddling. When you create an environment where creativity is artificially stifiled to try and match the needs of executives and Toriyama, of course you're going to wind up in positions where the artistic visions of other artists are compromised. Blaming those artists for having to work under unreasonable conditions is pointless.

[Majin Buu]

What about his son?

"As promised, the creator did oversee the story of Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, and Toriyama did so with his only son.


'Norihiro Hayashida, the producer at Toei Animation, explains that Akira Toriyama's son, Sasuke Toriyama was in charge of taking care of his father's legacy in Super Hero.'

Via: @SensaCineMx pic.twitter.com/mkwypQkYNA"

https://comicbook.com/anime/news/dragon ... per%20Hero.

Honestly, this makes sense. At least with this, there's someone involved with Dragon Ball that would (presumably) have some good insight into how Toriyama would do things- the kind of insight only someone who knew him personally could provide.

[SupremeKai25]

The 2010s represent such a massive shake-up for the Dragon Ball franchise and world.

The reveal of the Gods of Destruction and Angels? Massive shake-up.

The reveal that there are 11 other Universes, with even greater Gods and mortals? Massive shake-up.

The reveal that there is a Deity even greater than the Gods and Angels? And that he is a "tiny chibi type imp"? Massive shake-up.

DBS does not get enough appreciation for just how much it has expanded the Dragon Ball horizon, mostly for the better, and catapulted the Dragon Ball franchise into the next 10 years (again, mostly for the better). 10 years after BoG, Goku still hasn't surpassed Lord Beerus.

It remains to be seen if any other author or Toei will be able to create a massive shake-up for the franchise like BoG/DBS was in the 2010s.

[FinalPilaf]

Nobody takes Dragon Ball beyond Toriyama because their hands are tied by executive and Toriyama meddling. When you create an environment where creativity is artificially stifiled to try and match the needs of executives and Toriyama, of course you're going to wind up in positions where the artistic visions of other artists are compromised Blaming those artists for having to work under unreasonable conditions is pointless.

And now thanks to that corporate environment where, as you say, creativity is artifically stifled, we're probably never going to see anything come out of Dragon Ball where artistic vision guides the output as opposed to commities and group think. Individual artists with great talent and endless passion for the works of Toriyama will try to tell their stories through the Dragon Ball world, but they will be neutered. Just like everyone involved with current Star Wars are neutured regardless of talent and passion. The only person to ever be involved with Star Wars whose personal expression ever weighed heavier than the demans of the machine was Lucas, and it was the same thing with Dragon Ball and Toriyama.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm kind of repeating myself here, but I really don't see the point in placing some kind of 'canon' on a pedastool, when it completely ignores whether a work of art is good. I think it's important that we keep that in mind, because it isn't some nebulous idea of 'canon' that is the connective tissue from the humanity of the creative staff to the humanity of the person experiencing that art. What does that is everthing else: the story, the characters, the visuals, the themes, etc.

Honestly, the canon talk just reminds me of the obsession with battle powers as a form of distilling art into math, rather than capturing the humanity of those involved with it.

Art is about feeling, not being right.

I think canon is useful when needing to explain why Piccolo can blow Goku's spaceship to smirthireens in episode 18 of Z but 20+ episodes later Dr.Briefs is able to find most of it intact or why no one remembers the Z warriors in the Cell Games despite the Saiyan invasion being broadcasted or why Gohan isn't interested in fighting and would rather study but we have scenes of him sneaking away from studying to train or obliterating Garlic Jr's henchman with warrior determination i.e turbo nerdy discussion your average viewer doesn't think or care about.

That said, when we hold canon up on a pedestal it dismisses the genuinely good stuff we've gotten without Toriyama like the Garlic Jr movie, the Trunks and Bardock tv special, and the Saiyan arc filler that makes the Z warriors more than cannon fodder and gives Gohan actual development instead of jumping from point A to point C.

[kemuri07]

Dragon Ball has no canon and never did. It's more of a western concept.

Just enjoy what you enjoy regardless of what anyone thinks.

This is the correct answer. Especially when Toriyama has been forthcoming that he pretty made a lot of Dragon Ball up on the go. Attempting to apply a "Marvel level" of canon to Dragon Ball is pointless.

[AliTheZombie13]

Not if you use "canon" in the sense of "what is official continuity". But when I say Toriyama "canon" it's in the sense of being the main artistic vision behind the entire Dragon Ball world.

Honestly, it's hard to take the argument that "canon is the true artistic vision" seriously when you read numerous interviews stating that NONE OF THIS is something that Toriyama ever intended. He saw the script for BoG, thought it sucked, and forced himself to rewrite the whole thing so it would suck less.

A lot of things that happen in Dragon Ball Super and the movies are also not the result of Toriyama's "main artistic vision" either. Broly would've never happened if it were for Toriyama alone. Gohan would never be a factor in Super Hero if Toriyama had a say in it. Many of the pointless transformations that happen in Dragon Ball Super were also pushed on him to make a quick buck of toy sales.

If Toriyama had any say in "the main artistic vision of Dragon Ball", the franchise would've been already over since the end of the original manga. Toriyama never intended to continue it past that point, and refused numerous times to continue it. How can I consider any of that to be some kind of "artistic vision" when it's clear Toriyama never wanted to do any of these things in the first place?

[JulieYBM]

Nobody takes Dragon Ball beyond Toriyama because their hands are tied by executive and Toriyama meddling. When you create an environment where creativity is artificially stifiled to try and match the needs of executives and Toriyama, of course you're going to wind up in positions where the artistic visions of other artists are compromised Blaming those artists for having to work under unreasonable conditions is pointless.

And now thanks to that corporate environment where, as you say, creativity is artifically stifled, we're probably never going to see anything come out of Dragon Ball where artistic vision guides the output as opposed to commities and group think. Individual artists with great talent and endless passion for the works of Toriyama will try to tell their stories through the Dragon Ball world, but they will be neutered. Just like everyone involved with current Star Wars are neutured regardless of talent and passion. The only person to ever be involved with Star Wars whose personal expression ever weighed heavier than the demans of the machine was Lucas, and it was the same thing with Dragon Ball and Toriyama.

It's not an exact thing, but it's definitely an issue that shounen films and television series adaptions have had since One Piece Film: Strong World. We should be addressing that as the issue facing art, because a lot of these adaptions are still being made by creative people with powerful ideas and vision. The Tomioka Atsuhiro-written episodes of Dragon Ball Super absolutely still maintain the feeling of his work from, say, his work on Pokemon, and we see how even Nagamine's flourishes and ideas still affected Dragon Ball Super and One Piece. Hell, it's Yama-uchi Shigeyasu's influence that made the older Dragon Ball films' from Dragon Ball Z Movie #8-onward so damned good.

We desperately need to be moving away from the idea that the original author is the sole authority figure that should be listened to, or else we aren't going to get another One Piece Movie #6, or Casshern Sins, or the intrigue of the Future Trunks arc tantalizingly teased as it was. This is to say nothing of getting another Kale and Caulifla relationship, either.

[SupremeKai25]

How can I consider any of that to be some kind of "artistic vision" when it's clear Toriyama never wanted to do any of these things in the first place?

Because, even though he originally "did not want to do any of those things", he still ultimately contributed to those things. His influence and vision can be seen in those things.

Otherwise, Lord Beerus would still be some random lizard who spreads a virus or whatever Toei originally cooked.

The fact that Lord Beerus looks like this is because Toriyama stepped in and applied his own vision and take on what Toei originally started:




And you see this kind of dynamic for much of Super. Even if a certain idea did not derive from Toriyama himself, he still supervised it. Even if a certain idea was suggested to Toriyama from someone else, he still made it work in a storyline that he created.

That is why it's weird to single out Super.

These are literally storylines that Toriyama worked on. Why does it matter if they weren't stories that he ORIGINALLY wanted to tell? (but he still ended up telling them in the end)

Toriyama's original vision for the Android saga was to have 19 and 20 as the main villains. 17/18/Cell are not part of Toriyama's original vision for that arc, yet you don't single them out.

So wWhy single out Super even though Toriyama still worked on those storylines?

[AliTheZombie13]

These are literally storylines that Toriyama worked on. Why does it matter if they weren't stories that he ORIGINALLY wanted to tell? (but he still ended up telling them in the end)

There is a stark difference between doing something because you're pouring your very soul into it (Daima) and doing something purely out of spite just so your name won't be stained by the incompetence of those involved (Super). But shockingly, the reception to Daima has been polarizing, despite it making a better case for Toriyama's "artistic vision" than Super ever did.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

How can I consider any of that to be some kind of "artistic vision" when it's clear Toriyama never wanted to do any of these things in the first place?

Bardock is also an interesting example of the reverse, as he was included in two panels of the manga because Toriyama loved the special. That's why I say if people want to pin down a true artistic vision free from corporate pressure, or at least the closest thing to it the only definition that's consistent is what was written by Toriyama and printed in Weekly Shonen Jump during the original run, as that eliminates the Kanzenban ending and other things that contradict the established storylines like Minus.

As has been stated though canon is not really a helpful term in Dragon Ball discourse as it discredit the great material we've got without Toriyama's involvement, so it's better in the man's honour to be grateful for all the good content we've got regardless of whose idea it wad originally. He was clearly satisfied with a lot of it so why shouldn't we be?

[JulieYBM]

How can I consider any of that to be some kind of "artistic vision" when it's clear Toriyama never wanted to do any of these things in the first place?

Because, even though he originally "did not want to do any of those things", he still ultimately contributed to those things. His influence and vision can be seen in those things.

Otherwise, Lord Beerus would still be some random lizard who spreads a virus or whatever Toei originally cooked.

The fact that Lord Beerus looks like this is because Toriyama stepped in and applied his own vision and take on what Toei originally started:

You say this like Watanabe and friends' idea was bad. It wasn't, you never saw the completed film. There was an interesting premise at hand, especially if you encouraged that premise to be fulfilled and not end with the status quo restored. Toriyama coming in and basically cherry-picking what elements he wanted to work with doesn't necessarily mean that the 2013 film that we got was better.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Because, even though he originally "did not want to do any of those things", he still ultimately contributed to those things. His influence and vision can be seen in those things.

Otherwise, Lord Beerus would still be some random lizard who spreads a virus or whatever Toei originally cooked.

The fact that Lord Beerus looks like this is because Toriyama stepped in and applied his own vision and take on what Toei originally started:

Spoiler:

Concepts don't have any inherent quality, execution gives them that, we never saw how that original idea could turn out, we can't say that it was either good or bad.

[SupremeKai25]

These are literally storylines that Toriyama worked on. Why does it matter if they weren't stories that he ORIGINALLY wanted to tell? (but he still ended up telling them in the end)

and doing something purely out of spite just so your name won't be stained by the incompetence of those involved (Super)

Yet those involved were literally following Toriyama's bullet points.

U6/Zamasu/ToP arc, that is all Toriyama (except for SSB Vegito who was added by Toyotaro for fan-service).

You say this like Watanabe and friends' idea was bad.

It was bad according to Toriyama.

That is the point. It was bad according to Toriyama, so Toriyama changed it and we got the Lord Beerus we all know.

So Lord Beerus and the entirety of BoG aligns with Toriyama's vision.