If Zamasu came back

[SupremeKai25]

but Freeza also has an existing relationship and grudge with the Saiyans that Zamasu lacks

Zamasu arguably has an even bigger relationship and grudge with the Saiyans, considering how he stole Goku's body, killed his family, and also killed Vegeta's wife and ruined his son's future.

Taking Heroes into account, Zamasu even killed 99 different versions of Goku.

tl;dr: I appreciate Zamasu's character coming full circle in its own irreverent capacity as another silly god who happened to be in way over his head. Perhaps you should as well. Some things are better left concluded.

That's literally the argument I made earlier.

[capsulecorp]

Given how hierarchical the system of deities is, and how far outside his station he was conducting himself, maybe he'll have to start over from the bottom rung of the ladder. Years from now we'll find that Zamasu has been working contritely on some far flung planet, filing paperwork and making tea for junior Kais hundreds of years younger than him.

I know it's a faux pas to quote yourself, but the more I think about this idea, the more I love it. The best way for Zamasu to return is if he's humbled by being placed in a totally subservient role, similar to these guys from King Yemma's place:



It's perfect - his punishment should be that he becomes forced to respect mortals by serving them.

[Bardock God of Time]

An interesting way they could bring him back is introducing a new concept to the lore.

Perhaps everything that gets erased by the Gods and Zeno don't actually get erased? Just get sent to it's own dimension.

Zamasu would be the leader of that dimension and the whole Future Trunks timeline that was destroyed are basically his slaves.

Hey that's another way to bring Future Trunks back too.

[SupremeKai25]

Perhaps everything that gets erased by the Gods and Zeno don't actually get erased? Just get sent to it's own dimension.

This.

I have read this theory several times back when the ToP arc was airing, that maybe the erased contestants were not actually killed or "erased", but simply sent to another dimension.

It's interesting how there's pretty much no difference between restoring to life from the Otherworld someone who died and restoring to life someone who was erased. Does this not imply that the souls of erased people still exist somewhere? Otherwise, how can they be restored?

Think of it like this: If Zeno's Erase technique really does erase people from existence, how come the Grand Priest isn't angry that Zeno killed 5 of his children?

This is a good premise for a new arc, I believe there is a storyline that can and should be told here.

[capsulecorp]

An interesting way they could bring him back is introducing a new concept to the lore.

Perhaps everything that gets erased by the Gods and Zeno don't actually get erased? Just get sent to it's own dimension.

Zamasu would be the leader of that dimension and the whole Future Trunks timeline that was destroyed are basically his slaves.

Hey that's another way to bring Future Trunks back too.

The problem with something like this is, "why"? Zamasu should only return if there's a way to further develop his character or use it to illuminate themes of the Dragon World, it's not interesting to just... see him again in a new context. Why would people want to read about Zamasu enslaving people?

That's why I think it's so important to see him humiliated and forced to serve mortals. He's a bully, an insane zealot, whose insane anti-ideology caused him to end up erased by the most powerful being in the multiverse. It's interesting to see a character like that be forced to come to terms with his flaws, similar to Freeza's extended realization that actually, Goku SHOULD be taken seriously.

[nineko]

Perhaps everything that gets erased by the Gods and Zeno don't actually get erased? Just get sent to it's own dimension.

Just like the "pruning" done by the TVA in the Loki television series, then.

Think of it like this: If Zeno's Erase technique really does erase people from existence, how come the Grand Priest isn't angry that Zeno killed 5 of his children?

Angels weren't erased during the ToP, and if you were referring to Universes 13 to 18 (which is 6 in total, not 5), we don't know what happened to those angels, they might still be somewhere.

[SupremeKai25]

Angels weren't erased during the ToP, and if you were referring to Universes 13 to 18 (which is 6 in total, not 5), we don't know what happened to those angels, they might still be somewhere.

Yeah, I was referring to the 13-18 Angels. They are the children of the Grand Priest, and the Grand Priest certainly seems to be a good guy in the grand scheme of things, so shouldn't he be angry that Zeno killed 6 of his children because he was throwing a temper tantrum one day?

Unless, the people who are erased aren't actually erased/killed.

[LoganForkHands73]

Perhaps everything that gets erased by the Gods and Zeno don't actually get erased? Just get sent to it's own dimension.

This.

I have read this theory several times back when the ToP arc was airing, that maybe the erased contestants were not actually killed or "erased", but simply sent to another dimension.

It's interesting how there's pretty much no difference between restoring to life from the Otherworld someone who died and restoring to life someone who was erased. Does this not imply that the souls of erased people still exist somewhere? Otherwise, how can they be restored?

Think of it like this: If Zeno's Erase technique really does erase people from existence, how come the Grand Priest isn't angry that Zeno killed 5 of his children?

This is a good premise for a new arc, I believe there is a storyline that can and should be told here.

The erased universes and all souls within them are, well, erased (would be funny if the old dub-ism of "sent to another dimension" was canonised in a roundabout way). That's why only a power source as great as the Super Dragon Balls could restore them to life, otherwise it would be impossible. Retconning this would remove the tension and existential themes of the arc; the Dragon Team and everyone else involved in the tournament truly are fighting for survival, but as Android #17 muses, if Zeno can wipe out a universe in a blink, is there even much point in resisting such a fate that could come at any time without warning?

If the Grand Priest was angry, there's not a lot he can do about it. He already secured the best deal he could hope for by guaranteeing the lives of his children even when their universes and gods are erased, even if they are rendered dormant until they are assigned to another universe (who's to say that any of the angels we see in the arc didn't once preside over the mysterious deleted universes and were reassigned?)

[SupremeKai25]

That's why only a power source as great as the Super Dragon Balls could restore them to life, otherwise it would be impossible.

How come the Grand Priest is also able to do it (as he did to Merus)?

Retconning this would remove the tension and existential themes of the arc; the Dragon Team and everyone else involved in the tournament truly are fighting for survival, but as Android #17 muses, if Zeno can wipe out a universe in a blink, is there even much point in resisting such a fate that could come at any time without warning?

Not a "retcon". A "recontextualisation".

Does it remove tension from a prior arc? That ship sailed a long time ago. For instance, How can you rewatch the Frieza arc and still feel any tension, when you know that an incompetent fool like Shin could oneshot Final Form Frieza?

Anyway, I'm not saying this is the only way to bring Zamasu back. There are many ways to bring him back, Heroes already managed to do it twice. There's also Zamasu from Cell timeline that is still alive.

I'm just saying it's possible that "erased" people don't actually cease to exist, or not in the way that we think at a surface-level reading. In the TOP arc, they don't look like they're being killed or destroyed, they look like they're being teleported away.

[Majin Buu]

It's perfect - his punishment should be that he becomes forced to respect mortals by serving them.

I like this.

The big bad isn't punished with death (or complete non-existence) this time, but instead, by being forced to do a job he hates for the rest of his life. It works because it's so hilariously mundane (to the point of being somewhat relatable) compared to the more grandiose punishment he got in the Future arc. Denying a narcissist like him another big demise in favor of a punishment that's forces him to experience something he considers professionally and personally beneath him is perfect; and if it turns out he's too stubborn to change his ways, he'll be trapped in his own personal hell forever.

[LoganForkHands73]

That's why only a power source as great as the Super Dragon Balls could restore them to life, otherwise it would be impossible.

How come the Grand Priest is also able to do it (as he did to Merus)?

I don't think there was any implication that Merus's entire soul was erased when he broke the rules, but there are probably different mechanics at play here. It's not even that clear if the angels' non-interference clause is something built into them at a biological level, or some external inhibitor placed on them by the Grand Priest, or what. Even so, the Grand Priest apparently wasn't able to fully revive him, Merus had to sacrifice his immortality and essentially be reborn as an entirely new lifeform.

Does it remove tension from a prior arc? That ship sailed a long time ago. For instance, How can you rewatch the Frieza arc and still feel any tension, when you know that an incompetent fool like Shin could oneshot Final Form Frieza?

I can still feel the tension because Shin wasn't there, lol.

I'm just saying it's possible that "erased" people don't actually cease to exist, or not in the way that we think at a surface-level reading. In the TOP arc, they don't look like they're being killed or destroyed, they look like they're being teleported away.

IMO, the "cleanness" is part of the subtle horror. When Zeno kills someone, it's instantaneous. The victim painlessly blinks out of existence like they never existed in the first place. Contrast that with Beerus's methods of destruction which are functionally similar but slower, messier and more painful for the recipients. It's easy to see why #17 would come to a fatalistic conclusion that if there's this all-powerful god who has the power to do erase life on a multiversal scale, on a whim, whenever he feels like it, is there even much point in resisting? Reducing that to Zeno just teleporting them away somewhere feels cheap.

[SupremeKai25]

I can still feel the tension because Shin wasn't there, lol.

But he retroactively existed in the Universe, along with Beerus, Whis, Zeno, and all the rest.

So, when you go rewatch the Cell arc and arrive at the point where Super Perfect Cell says that he will end the universe, please keep in mind that there's a dozen people in U7 alone that can oneshot Super Perfect Cell.

DBS recontextualized and scaled back the "threat" factor of the original DBZ villains, an inevitability of power-creep.

Ironically, the same has happened to Zamasu. Zamasu has been hit hard by power-creep since 2017. That is why you have people wondering why Jiren/Toppo/Merus/Grand Priest did not do anything about Zamasu. I can easily rationalize how Zamasu could have dealt with those people in a way that doesn't involve simple power-scaling; but I also cannot deny that the ToP arc has opened up new questions about the FT arc, namely what all those 70 fighters were doing while Zamasu was genociding the mortals.

This is the inevitable fate of any long-running series and unchecked power-creep. As new arcs are created, older arcs are inevitably recontextualized and scaled back in terms of tension and stakes.

IMO, the "cleanness" is part of the subtle horror. When Zeno kills someone, it's instantaneous. The victim painlessly blinks out of existence like they never existed in the first place. Contrast that with Beerus's methods of destruction which are functionally similar but slower, messier and more painful for the recipients. It's easy to see why #17 would come to a fatalistic conclusion that if there's this all-powerful god who has the power to do erase life on a multiversal scale, on a whim, whenever he feels like it, is there even much point in resisting? Reducing that to Zeno just teleporting them away somewhere feels cheap.

There's some ambiguity to this.

In the ToP, the victims of the Zeno technique went out relatively painlessly, some were even talking and making jokes and smiling while it was happening (Cabba, Champa, the entire U2 team, Jiren, etc.).

But then you look at Infinite Zamasu, and he was pretty much screaming in agony throughout the entire process, not too differently from when Beerus erased the Apprentice Zamasu.

Anyway the bottom line is that "the erased people are not actually erased" is just a potential avenue to bring Zamasu back. It's not the only option, there are other ways. It's just an intelligent route, since it can also tie into Future Trunks and his entire timeline, as well as the 13-18 universes, since Zamasu wasn't the only one erased by Zeno.

[WittyUsername]

Something something “Somehow Zamasu returned.”

I don’t see what else you could do with that character. His story was wrapped up pretty conclusively.

[SupremeKai25]

Something something “Somehow Zamasu returned.”

I don’t see what else you could do with that character. His story was wrapped up pretty conclusively.

Frieza's story was also wrapped up conclusively. There was pretty much nothing left to be told about him. He got humbled and humiliated by a Saiyan, dethroned from his spot as the strongest, and pretty conclusively killed (cut into pieces and, for good measure, incinerated after being cut into pieces).

The executives don't care about the story, they only care about profits and if the premise of an arc can be popular. The premise of RoF was destined for success, because people are nostalgic and people want to see Frieza come back to relive their nostalgia. That is why they are still milking on the Frieza presence almost 10 years after RoF.

The matter is simple: Is Zamasu popular/loved enough to warrant a comeback?

My answer is: YES. Zamasu is pretty much the only mainstream, original villain from Super. By virtue of being in two mediums and in videogames, he is more popular than the Manga-only villains.

If a villain was to make a comeback, and that villain had to be from Super, who would create more profits, internet traffic, and hype around the franchise? A villain who doesn't even appear in any anime or videogame? The answer is obvious.

Fun fact: Black is also in Fortnite, a collab between DBS and one of the most played videogames of the planet. With Zamasu/Black being exposed even more to Zoomers and Gen. Alpha through Fortnite, I'd say it's only a matter of time until we see "Resurrection of Z" on the big screens.

[Mr Baggins]

But he retroactively existed in the Universe, along with Beerus, Whis, Zeno, and all the rest.

You're fundamentally missing the point.

The gods aren't interested in intervening in mortal affairs, particularly those that don't immediately threaten their way of life or the cosmos. You can still read those older arcs retroactively and feel all the same tension because nobody was going to save the day and give the good guys backup if they lost. Any potential encounters would have been made long after Goku and his friends became space debris.

That isn't comparable to the series pulling an "ackshually Zamasu was secretly alive and well" when all that forgoes the irony of his role and themes of the story. If he has to be brought back, I'd argue that capsulecorp's idea befits the nature of his character's comeuppance more than any of these other straightforward ideas that only diminish it.

Zamasu doesn't need to return. His story is over, and Heroes (as is typical) did nothing interesting with him.

[SupremeKai25]

That isn't comparable to the series pulling an "ackshually Zamasu was secretly alive and well" when all that forgoes the irony of his role and themes of the story. If he has to be brought back, I'd argue that capsulecorp's idea befits the nature of his character's comeuppance more than any of these other straightforward ideas that only diminish it.

I disagree.

There is no point in bringing back a villain just to humiliate him and for comic relief.

If that's his punishment, it must come after he has threatened the mortals once again and had to be fought and defeated in battle.

Otherwise, if he's to return just because Toriyama feels like replacing Frieza with someone else as the recurring Scooby Doo comic relief villain, he should just stay dead and erased.

and Heroes (as is typical) did nothing interesting with him.

Making Zamasu work with a team of mortals is an interesting idea.

One of the most interesting conceivable ideas you could have for the character, even.

If a character hates mortals and he is forced to work with mortals to achieve their goal, that is interesting.

[Grimlock]

Making Zamasu work with a team of mortals is an interesting idea.

Normally it would be, if it had come from Dragon Ball Super or Toriyama, but because that's an idea that came from a game, then it is bad, as typical. For more, see: Golden Freeza = good, Golden Coola = bad. Tournaments and retellings = good, a "villain" who wants to give mortals actual free will = bad.

Speaking of which, until when we will call Hearts a "villain"? He sounds more like a savior to me.

[capsulecorp]

There is no point in bringing back a villain just to humiliate him and for comic relief.

For what its worth, this was Pilaf's fate, and that has worked really well for Super so far. I wouldn't want to see as much of Zamasu as much as we saw of Pilaf, but they're similar archetypes (entitled, arrogant, self-important, ignorant) and it makes sense that the audience would want to see them humbled.

Of course, the devil is in the details. In the case of Pilaf, his continued scheming despite the (even more) vast difference in power between him and Goku is especially funny. He was in over his head way back in the first arc of Dragon Ball! He still is! How oblivious!

And in the case of Zamasu, being kicked back down the celestial hierarchy is the ultimate refutation of his perverse ideology. If we see him again - and that's a big IF, given the "gaiden" nature of the Dragon Ball Super manga & anime - I wouldn't expect him to be a threat.

[Mr Baggins]

Also, here's the good news: Toriyama already made him an embarrassing villain. In the story proper, Zamasu is the equivalent of a disgruntled grocery store clerk that got a little too full of himself, fucked around and found out. There's a reason almost every character in the manga is regularly dismissive of him (Goku actually makes fun of him at one point) save for Gowasu, ever oblivious to his apprentice's tomfoolery.

Whereas Freeza was the tyrant that made everyone collectively shit themselves on Namek, Zamasu was the guy that loved to hear himself talk while being taken seriously by almost nobody present. He humiliates himself enough during the arc's plot that it's almost as if he was specifically designed to, or something.

I don't think there's a shred of justification to have him return as an antagonist, since the narrative already tells us what someone like him becoming one leads to. But forcing him to do grunt work in the afterlife would be a pretty funny and fitting cameo, if you ask me.

If a character hates mortals and he is forced to work with mortals to achieve their goal, that is interesting.

I can come up with a few words to describe Zamasu allying himself with a god-slaying mortal who then predictably betrays him, all while nothing happens with the characters or their progression during all of that. "Interesting" isn't one of them, sadly. "Banal", "trite", and "formulaic" come to mind.

But that's all of SDBH in a nutshell, which is more concerned with mashing action figures together and doling out transformations Oprah-style even when it doesn't make sense than telling a story. I suppose I shan't be too hard on something that doesn't pretend to be more than a glorified video game ad in the first place. If people enjoy it, more power to them.

[SupremeKai25]

Looking back on it, you can see that Zamasu was a character clearly created by Toriyama and appreciate how Toriyama's influence permeated Super:

- A Supreme Kai who hates mortals and thinks that they are inferior... and yet he is obsessed with the body of a mortal and needs the body of a mortal to achieve his goal. Classic Toriyama irony.

(like Frieza dismissing the Saiyans as brutes and savages and yet he really isn't any better)

- A villain who sees himself as the ultimate deity, who was truly and utterly unbeatable by the protagonists, with the ultimate invulnerability that the protagonists could never possibly defeat... only to be erased instantly by the true deity (who is a child) because Goku pressed a button. Classic Toriyama trolling.

(like when Cell the "super perfect being" that defeated every adult got annihilated by a child with one arm)

- A deity who loses his mind (literally) because he got beat by a mortal in a fight, so basically he's super salty and mad and just throws a temper tantrum against mortals. A classic Toriyama trope: The Gods are useless and incompetent and they are really just like humans. How ironic that Zamasu, a deity, is filled with so many human emotions and weaknesses. And yet that is the Classic Toriyama irony; in other works, deities are these stoic and wise beings who know all the answers. In Dragon Ball, Gods are incompetent and lazy (and very salty and vain, as in the case of Zamasu).

There is no doubt, Zamasu is a classic Toriyama villain, very similar to the old villains of DBZ. He is cool, he has badass on-screen presence, he is both evil and funny, and the story never treats him as anything more than just that: a villain. (That is why I cringe when people say that his motivations should have been more explored or whatever; this is Dragon Ball, not Naruto, villain motivations are just a backdrop to justify the cool fight scene).

I just find it so amazing that Toriyama managed to make a cringe OC Deviant art idea like "Evil Supreme Kai who is also Evil Goku and also time travels because why not" actually work with his overall whimsical and fun-loving story.

There's probably nothing left that can be done with Zamasu. Nothing that warrants an entire arc anyway. He has served his purpose to the overall plot, which was to show the horrors of a rogue Supreme Kai, and to show the horrors of when Zeno throws a temper tantrum.

I would personally enjoy a simple cameo for comedic purposes, like that cameo Perfect Cell and Frieza had in DBZ where they got stomped by Pikkon.

I would personally enjoy a quick cameo where Zamasu (or what is left of him) just has a funny moment. His time in the spotlight ended in 2016.

I would not want another arc centred entirely around Zamasu, just as I would not want another arc centred entirely around Perfect Cell or Moro: They are Arc villains. Their purpose to the overall story was limited to their one arc; their time in the spotlight ended with their one arc.