The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[Majin Buu]

I'm kind of repeating myself here, but I really don't see the point in placing some kind of 'canon' on a pedastool, when it completely ignores whether a work of art is good. I think it's important that we keep that in mind, because it isn't some nebulous idea of 'canon' that is the connective tissue from the humanity of the creative staff to the humanity of the person experiencing that art. What does that is everthing else: the story, the characters, the visuals, the themes, etc.

Honestly, the canon talk just reminds me of the obsession with battle powers as a form of distilling art into math, rather than capturing the humanity of those involved with it.

Art is about feeling, not being right.

In my fan experiences outside of this forum, strength discussions have always been the reason canon mattered. When you're bickering about whether or not Vegeta had reached Super Saiyan 2 before the Majin charm, what is and isn't in the source material gets hyper-scrutinized because someone just has to be right.

In this particular, very specific case, while people are entitled to ignore whatever that doesn't come from the original author/creator, I am entitled to have an opinion on that approach (oh, and I'm not calling people "stupid", I'm calling the way they prefer to treat this matter "stupid". You may want to rephrase that). Dragon Ball is a beautiful franchise, so why would someone simply want to ignore everything else is beyond me. And, using your previously mentioned Star Wars as another example, while I don't know about it, I'm willing to bet there are good non-George Lucas works that those people who elect to ignore them are missing, all because of some kind of ridiculous "prejudice" or whatever it is.

Let me answer that question with my approach with that franchise.

I've only ever cared about the main movies, I've never been interested in the expanded universe. Not out of any "prejudice" against anything not made by Lucas, but because I just don't have the energy to follow all of that other stuff. It's just too daunting. Fact is, some people just want to stick with the source material and simply aren't interested in exploring anything beyond that, be it because they don't have the time or energy, lack the desire to do, etc. Fans aren't obligated to seek out every single work a franchise puts out.

With Dragon Ball it's different, and I think it's simply because I'm more into Dragon Ball than Star Wars so I'm more willing to go outside of the source material.

You see something similar with One Piece, where it's massive length is a barrier to entry for many due to the time commitment in spite of the praise it gets.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

In my fan experiences outside of this forum, strength discussions have always been the reason canon mattered. When you're bickering about whether or not Vegeta had reached Super Saiyan 2 before the Majin charm, what is and isn't in the source material gets hyper-scrutinized because someone just has to be right.

And aside from canon strength discussions tend to be the least constructive conversation possible to have about Dragon Ball, particularly when fans delve into such superfluous concepts as power levels, which were only relevant from about Raditz arrival until the end of Namek.

When it comes to determining when a character learned a particular transformation I prefer theories that are more story-focused and not fixated on things like frivolous numbers (which is a more interesting as a way of showing how shallow characters like the evil Saiyans or Freeza's henchmen were as strategy is what matters in combat) like Geekdom's headcanon about Vegeta attaining Super Saiyan 3 but never using it in battle because he learned the hard way it's too draining on the body.

[AliTheZombie13]

Dragon Ball Super was never about adventure. Goku doesn't care about adventure in BoG, he cares about fighting the Lord of Destruction. Goku doesn't care about adventure at the end of BoG, he cares about challenging himself to new heights and reaching the level of Destruction.

Sidelining the ever-moving chase and struggle for the top-spot for "adventure" is unironically what Toei would do without Toriyama's supervision.

I think you misunderstand the creators behind this franchise and what they want.
Toriyama was all about adventure in the first arc of the manga before realizing, "Oh wait... that's not profitable."
He tried again with Teen!Gohan, before realizing again, "Oh wait... that's not profitable."
GT tried it, before realizing again, "Oh wait... that's not profitable."
And I'm pretty sure Namek, which is consistently listed as a high point in the franchise, can be considered an adventure arc.

Daima is the last Toriyama work, in which he said he was very excited to work on it and had more control and enthusiasm than ever, what is it about? Goku becoming a kid again and going on an adventure. Fans hate it.

Dragon Ball isn't focusing itself on never-ending battles because of any artistic vision or writing consistency issues, it is because the fandom hates adventure-focused Dragon Ball with a passion, which is very sad.

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of Star Wars, George Lucas had been a controversial figure among the fanbase since the late 90s. The prequels were a major punching bag back in the day, and Lucas was a frequent subject of ridicule by RedLetterMedia. A lot of fans actually preferred the creatives behind expanded universe material over George Lucas. It was pretty much the inverse of the Dragon Ball fandom’s views on Akira Toriyama.

The current reevaluation of George Lucas is a combination of how controversial the Disney era has been, as well as the fact that the people who watched the prequels as kids are adults now.

Circling back to Toriyama and the “canon” discussions, I always felt that these debates primarily started because fans hated GT so much that they needed to invalidate its existence, so they argued that because it wasn’t written by Toriyama himself, it “never happened.”

[SupremeKai25]

And I'm pretty sure Namek, which is consistently listed as a high point in the franchise, can be considered an adventure arc.

Which part of the Namek saga is consistently listed as a "high point in the franchise"? The initial part where they're looking for the Dragon Balls, or the massive final fight between the emperor and the legend? Which of the two "acts" of the saga is the most memorable and iconic, the one that is usually brought up and talked-about?

Besides, we're getting Daima now, which is an Adventure-focused show with Kid Goku again. The people who like big fights can look to Super, the people who like adventure can look to Daima. It is literally the best of both worlds running concurrently.

As for the people who judge the book by the cover, don't mistaken me for one of the Daima naysayers, as that couldn't be farther from the truth.

I've been sold on Daima the moment I heard the leaks about Supreme Kai being a major character, in fact.

[MasenkoHA]

And I'm pretty sure Namek, which is consistently listed as a high point in the franchise, can be considered an adventure arc.

Which part of the Namek saga is consistently listed as a "high point in the franchise"? The initial part where they're looking for the Dragon Balls, or the massive final fight between the emperor and the legend? Which of the two "acts" of the saga is the most memorable and iconic, the one that is usually brought up and talked-about?

The entire Namek saga is listed as a high point.

Not that it matters, at no point is the Namek arc an adventure story. There is no treasure hunting or exploration of a world brand new to our heroes. Gohan and company land on Namek and BOOM. WARZONE.

Besides, we're getting Daima now, which is an Adventure-focused show with Kid Goku again. The people who like big fights can look to Super, the people who like adventure can look to Daima. It is literally the best of both worlds running concurrently.

We should probably wait until Daima actually comes out before determining if it's actually an adventure series and not just using new worlds as an excuse for a new battleground.

I hope Daima is an adventure series with some cool action but we'll have to see.

[WittyUsername]

The only arcs in the original manga that can properly be considered adventure stories are the initial arc and the Red Ribbon Army, and the latter is basically a hybrid.

[pepd]

Toriyama Dragon Ball ended in 1996 in the Boo arc. Everything following hasn't been 100% his own work anymore. I don't see what may follow as any different. Toriyama probably left behind a ton of scrapped designs and story ideas - if not in writing, then in conversation with Toyotaro and others. They'll be reused and expanded upon by animators and writers just like the rest of Super.

Talking about the official works sure, the DB manga (and Jaco/minus) are the last materialized works that 100% portray Tori's DB; but we have Tori talking about the characters in a way that shows are part of Dragonball in his mind, and a script by him (RoF) that is almost identical to the final product. So talking about official products sure, but Tori's DB continued until recently, even if we got just second-hand modified retellings of it.

-

About the canon discussion, I used to find it interesting, then funny, now is just sad. There is authorship and continuity. That is what canon refers to in this context. Canon is not value judgement, it's just a categorization that separates continuities based on authorship. Yes, some people don't care for non-canon material, good for them. Yes, some dismiss people that like non-canon stuff, fuck them. Learn to enjoy what you like, instead of making mental gymnastics on a weirdass negationist campaign.

[tonysoprano300]

The 2010s represent such a massive shake-up for the Dragon Ball franchise and world.

The reveal of the Gods of Destruction and Angels? Massive shake-up.

The reveal that there are 11 other Universes, with even greater Gods and mortals? Massive shake-up.

The reveal that there is a Deity even greater than the Gods and Angels? And that he is a "tiny chibi type imp"? Massive shake-up.

DBS does not get enough appreciation for just how much it has expanded the Dragon Ball horizon, mostly for the better, and catapulted the Dragon Ball franchise into the next 10 years (again, mostly for the better). 10 years after BoG, Goku still hasn't surpassed Lord Beerus.

It remains to be seen if any other author or Toei will be able to create a massive shake-up for the franchise like BoG/DBS was in the 2010s.

But these aren’t used to tell a fun DB story, there is no adventure where Goku explores the DB multiverse, God ki is never expanded upon, and the story feels incredibly stagnant from one arc to the next.

Its stuck in a cycle where essentially a bad guy shows up then Goku and Vegeta fight him then they go back to training on Beerus’s planet. The characters don’t evolve, the status quo never changes and the series never feels like its moving in a serialized direction.

I will say BOG was a good film, probably the best DB film we’ve had in a while. But they didn’t take those concepts in a meaningful direction.

Dragon Ball Super was never about adventure. Goku doesn't care about adventure in BoG, he cares about fighting the Lord of Destruction. Goku doesn't care about adventure at the end of BoG, he cares about challenging himself to new heights and reaching the level of Destruction.

Sidelining the ever-moving chase and struggle for the top-spot for "adventure" is unironically what Toei would do without Toriyama's supervision.

Super was just never meant to be an Adventure show and I don't know why some people insist that it should have had Adventure arcs. The show was never about that. Go back to BoG, no one ever says "oh boy, I can't wait to go explore those 11 universes!"

All Goku cares about is chasing the levels of the Gods, and every Super arc has been functional to this overall narrative (except Super Hero, but it was supposed to be a fun side stuff more than anything, a breathing room with a short timeskip, before all the chaos with Black Frieza goes down).

My main point is that it reveals the vastness of the multiverse to us in BOG but it doesn’t feel like the characters have had enough meaningful interactions with it. It doesn’t have to be an adventure arc per se, In DBZ, we learn about the afterlife alongside Goku in both the anime and manga continuity. We see him have to navigate it in a narrative not focused on adventure but pure survival. So i do believe if the story is good enough then it can do these things organically.

That said if DBS had no interest in doing such things and its only focused on Goku fighting strong guys with no real emphasis on narrative or character then i suppose they accomplished their mission. Original DB for all its faults was at least trying to tell a story though and we felt a sense of progression from one arc to the next.

[WittyUsername]

But these aren’t used to tell a fun DB story, there is no adventure where Goku explores the DB multiverse, God ki is never expanded upon, and the story feels incredibly stagnant from one arc to the next.

Its stuck in a cycle where essentially a bad guy shows up then Goku and Vegeta fight him then they go back to training on Beerus’s planet. The characters don’t evolve, the status quo never changes and the series never feels like its moving in a serialized direction.

I will say BOG was a good film, probably the best DB film we’ve had in a while. But they didn’t take those concepts in a meaningful direction.

Dragon Ball Super was never about adventure. Goku doesn't care about adventure in BoG, he cares about fighting the Lord of Destruction. Goku doesn't care about adventure at the end of BoG, he cares about challenging himself to new heights and reaching the level of Destruction.

Sidelining the ever-moving chase and struggle for the top-spot for "adventure" is unironically what Toei would do without Toriyama's supervision.

Super was just never meant to be an Adventure show and I don't know why some people insist that it should have had Adventure arcs. The show was never about that. Go back to BoG, no one ever says "oh boy, I can't wait to go explore those 11 universes!"

All Goku cares about is chasing the levels of the Gods, and every Super arc has been functional to this overall narrative (except Super Hero, but it was supposed to be a fun side stuff more than anything, a breathing room with a short timeskip, before all the chaos with Black Frieza goes down).

My main point is that it reveals the vastness of the multiverse to us in BOG but it doesn’t feel like the characters have had enough meaningful interactions with it. It doesn’t have to be an adventure arc per se, In DBZ, we learn about the afterlife alongside Goku in both the anime and manga continuity. We see him have to navigate it in a narrative not focused on adventure but pure survival. So i do believe if the story is good enough then it can do these things organically.

That said if DBS had no interest in doing such things and its only focused on Goku fighting strong guys with no real emphasis on narrative or character then i suppose they accomplished their mission. Original DB for all its faults was at least trying to tell a story though and we felt a sense of progression from one arc to the next.

The multiverse in Dragon Ball was never meant to be some vast world-building concept for the characters to explore. It was just an excuse to open the door for other strong fighters for Goku to meet. It’s served its purpose.

[tonysoprano300]

Dragon Ball Super was never about adventure. Goku doesn't care about adventure in BoG, he cares about fighting the Lord of Destruction. Goku doesn't care about adventure at the end of BoG, he cares about challenging himself to new heights and reaching the level of Destruction.

Sidelining the ever-moving chase and struggle for the top-spot for "adventure" is unironically what Toei would do without Toriyama's supervision.

Super was just never meant to be an Adventure show and I don't know why some people insist that it should have had Adventure arcs. The show was never about that. Go back to BoG, no one ever says "oh boy, I can't wait to go explore those 11 universes!"

All Goku cares about is chasing the levels of the Gods, and every Super arc has been functional to this overall narrative (except Super Hero, but it was supposed to be a fun side stuff more than anything, a breathing room with a short timeskip, before all the chaos with Black Frieza goes down).

My main point is that it reveals the vastness of the multiverse to us in BOG but it doesn’t feel like the characters have had enough meaningful interactions with it. It doesn’t have to be an adventure arc per se, In DBZ, we learn about the afterlife alongside Goku in both the anime and manga continuity. We see him have to navigate it in a narrative not focused on adventure but pure survival. So i do believe if the story is good enough then it can do these things organically.

That said if DBS had no interest in doing such things and its only focused on Goku fighting strong guys with no real emphasis on narrative or character then i suppose they accomplished their mission. Original DB for all its faults was at least trying to tell a story though and we felt a sense of progression from one arc to the next.

The multiverse in Dragon Ball was never meant to be some vast world-building concept for the characters to explore. It was just an excuse to open the door for other strong fighters for Goku to meet. It’s served its purpose.

I guess thats just not terribly interesting to me without a meaningful narrative to back it up but I'm one of those weirdos who read the original DB for the character arcs and the story. The best fights are ones that have significant meaning for the characters imo

[AliTheZombie13]

I guess thats just not terribly interesting to me without a meaningful narrative to back it up but I'm one of those weirdos who read the original DB for the character arcs and the story. The best fights are ones that have significant meaning for the characters imo

Me too. One of these days, the DB fandom will realize that, "You don't watch DB for the writing" just doesn't cut it, especially now that Toriyama has passed and every subsequent work will be judged by different standards.

[SupremeKai25]

I guess thats just not terribly interesting to me without a meaningful narrative to back it up but I'm one of those weirdos who read the original DB for the character arcs and the story. The best fights are ones that have significant meaning for the characters imo

The Multiverse reveal served its purpose to the overall narrative.

The reveal that Goku's Universe is just one amongst many is the first set-up of the Tournament of Power. RoF set-up Ultra Instinct with Whis alluding to moving autonomously in his training with Goku. The U6 arc pushed the set-up with Zeno saying that they should replicate the Tournament of Destroyers but with all the universes instead. The Zamasu arc, a more self-contained and "isolated" storyline, still contributed to the set-up with Future Zeno going to the Present and becoming a permanent addition to the ToP cast.

It all comes together at the end with the Tournament of Power arc. That is the pay-off to the Multiverse reveal from BoG. That is the culmination (and why I say that the ToP would have been a perfect final arc for Super). A massive tournament to the death between the Universes, where each Universe's team is given an identity and personality and serves its purpose to the plot, even if it's just to get erased and show Zeno's power.

It was never about the individual Universes. It was never about visiting one specific Universe or a storyline related to one specific Universe. It was always about ALL the Universes coming together at the end for a grand battle royal; therefore, the Tournament of Power was sufficient pay-off to the BoG reveal that there are 12 Universes.

I personally don't care about what the robots of U3, the Furries of U9, or Ribrianne are up to, therefore I'm fine with Toriyama sidelining the Multiverse to focus on Earth-based stories (Broly and Super Hero). Because it was never about the individual universe, it was about ALL the universes coming together.

The only feasible way to include the Multiverse again is with a ToP 2.0 featuring all the new forms since the original TOP, and maybe this is what this ongoing arc will be about. It's too soon to tell, but not impossible.

[WittyUsername]

I can’t think of anything more tedious than another Tournament of Power. That sounds like a nightmare. Are people actually clamoring for that? What would even be the point? Just so we could see some fighters from the other four universes that we have no reason to care about? What would be the stakes? The universes getting erased again?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do people who say "no not another tournament please" even know what Dragon Ball is about

[JulieYBM]

Do people who say "no not another tournament please" even know what Dragon Ball is about

Speaking as a gal who wants another tournament: a series can and should do more than one thing.

[SupremeKai25]

I cannot see any other feasible way to reevaluate the Multiverse beyond Tournament of Power Round. 2.

The Tournament of Power ended in 2018. It is now 2024. 6 years are enough of a "cool-off" period between tournaments (if there even needs to be a "cool-off" period in the first place).

Since then, we've had 4 Non-Tournament storylines (Broly, Moro, Granolah the Survivor, Super Hero). Potentially 5 if this new arc is not a Tournament.

Do we still have "Tournament fatigue" after 6 years and 4 Non-Tournament storylines? I personally don't. I'd be satisfied with ToP Round. 2.

[MasenkoHA]

Do people who say "no not another tournament please" even know what Dragon Ball is about

I'm all for more tournaments but I would never want a Tournaments of Power Battle Royale for 40 some episodes ever again. It was fine the one time but would be unbearable the second

[JulieYBM]

Do people who say "no not another tournament please" even know what Dragon Ball is about

I'm all for more tournaments but I would never want a Tournaments of Power Battle Royale for 40 some episodes ever again. It was fine the one time but would be unbearable the second

I really do wish they had broken up the action with backstories and such. It was a perfect chance to really give more character development to new and old characters to highlight the drama of their battles.

[AliTheZombie13]

Do people who say "no not another tournament please" even know what Dragon Ball is about

It's not that we don't want another tournament, we don't want another Tournament of Power.
An arc where whatever semblance of good writing, motivation, character development, stakes or anything really is dumbed down to "Who cares? Just watch the fights!"