The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[WittyUsername]

Do people who say "no not another tournament please" even know what Dragon Ball is about

Tournaments are one thing, but I can’t comprehend what the appeal would be in seeing them recycle the Tournament of Power concept again. People really want to keep seeing the same thing over and over again?

This is why I actually think Daima sounds like a welcome change of pace in modern Dragon Ball.

[SupremeKai25]

The Tournament of Power is just that. A Tournament between the strongest mortals to see whose Power is greater.

A Simple and straightforward format for an arc, a basic one even, but an entertaining one.

Nowhere is it written in the rules that it needs to be a battle royal, or even involve 8 universes (although it can certainly involve the 4 universes that were exempt from the first TOP).

In no way does TOP 2.0 automatically mean that it will be a rehash of the previous ToP. It's literally just a tournament between the strongest. Nothing says it has to be another battle royal and can't have a new unique spin to it that wasn't in the previous ToP.

Another Tournament setting is the most logical way to catch up with the other Universes.

[tonysoprano300]

I don’t have a problem with tournaments in DB, some of the best DB content is from the original world martial arts tournaments.

That said, if the TOP is a template for how the writers are going to approach tournament arcs then i can certainly understand not wanting to see another one. The ones in the original DB we’re perfectly paced, featured extensive story development(Like Tien leaving the crane school and forging his own path forward or Master Roshi passing the torch to the new generation) and there was plenty of down time for characters to interact with each other. The TOP was non-stop fighting for like 1000 episodes, its cool to look at for a while but for someone like me that gets boring very quickly.

[Grimlock]

Let me answer that question with my approach with that franchise.

I've only ever cared about the main movies, I've never been interested in the expanded universe. Not out of any "prejudice" against anything not made by Lucas, but because I just don't have the energy to follow all of that other stuff. It's just too daunting. Fact is, some people just want to stick with the source material and simply aren't interested in exploring anything beyond that, be it because they don't have the time or energy, lack the desire to do, etc. Fans aren't obligated to seek out every single work a franchise puts out.

With Dragon Ball it's different, and I think it's simply because I'm more into Dragon Ball than Star Wars so I'm more willing to go outside of the source material.

You see something similar with One Piece, where it's massive length is a barrier to entry for many due to the time commitment in spite of the praise it gets.

And you answered it with a very solid, justifiable, understandable and sensible reason to not go out seeking every Star Wars material. I think I made pretty clear that my only problem is with those that don't even try to go outside of the source material and (or still go but) judge everything other than it based on their "principles" already aforementioned.

I don't see anything "solid", "justifiable", "understandable" and "sensible" in: "if the author/creator didn't do it, it's crap". And I don't see it because there isn't indeed any of that to be found in such line of thought. Although I question "lack of desire". If you are a casual fan, then okay, you will consume only the projects that are already readily and easily available to you. But if you are a hardcore fan, I don't understand why you wouldn't have the desire to check out the "expanded universe".

[Majin Buu]

And you answered it with a very solid, justifiable, understandable and sensible reason to not go out seeking every Star Wars material. I think I made pretty clear that my only problem is with those that don't even try to go outside of the source material and (or still go but) judge everything other than it based on their "principles" already aforementioned.

Ok, so in general you don't have a problem with people choosing to not go beyond the source material, you just don't like when people give that specific reason for doing so. I responded because it felt like you were saying "Choosing to not go beyond the source material is stupid and anyone who does that is stupid" so thanks for clarifying.

That being said...

Although I question "lack of desire". If you are a casual fan, then okay, you will consume only the projects that are already readily and easily available to you. But if you are a hardcore fan, I don't understand why you wouldn't have the desire to check out the "expanded universe".

A hardcore fan might simply have disliked the material they've come across for one, and if that happens enough times, it's easy to see how such a fan would come to the conclusion that most of the stuff outside of the source material isn't worth seeking out. It wouldn't be about "principles", just simply not liking the material when they decided to check it out and having that happen one too many times.

For instance, it's not hard to find people on this forum who dislike Dragon Ball Heroes for reasons that have nothing to do with "canon". I say this because at your worst, you have a tendency to paint with too broad of a brush when it comes to people who don't like Heroes. It's like you believe those people don't ever have valid reasons for disliking it.

[Rhadon]

Toriyama Dragon Ball ended in 1996 in the Boo arc. Everything following hasn't been 100% his own work anymore. I don't see what may follow as any different. Toriyama probably left behind a ton of scrapped designs and story ideas - if not in writing, then in conversation with Toyotaro and others. They'll be reused and expanded upon by animators and writers just like the rest of Super.

Do you really think dbz was akira 100%? lol

dragonball is as close to what akira wanted as it gets. dbz is riding the success wave with quite some input from other people. he never wanted to make going from comdeci to serious and even sad stuff. but it simply made money like crazy so you ride it and work 16 hours a day.

super is more like akiras work than dbz ever was.

[tonysoprano300]

Toriyama Dragon Ball ended in 1996 in the Boo arc. Everything following hasn't been 100% his own work anymore. I don't see what may follow as any different. Toriyama probably left behind a ton of scrapped designs and story ideas - if not in writing, then in conversation with Toyotaro and others. They'll be reused and expanded upon by animators and writers just like the rest of Super.

Do you really think dbz was akira 100%? lol

dragonball is as close to what akira wanted as it gets. dbz is riding the success wave with quite some input from other people. he never wanted to make going from comdeci to serious and even sad stuff. but it simply made money like crazy so you ride it and work 16 hours a day.

super is more like akiras work than dbz ever was.

It was still Toriyama who writing everything from start to finish, even if he had to adhere to editor oversight it was still him who had to figure out how to make it work.

Super is him giving bullet points to people who then have to actually execute the story, which is a very different thing imo.

[SupremeKai25]

Toriyama Dragon Ball ended in 1996 in the Boo arc. Everything following hasn't been 100% his own work anymore. I don't see what may follow as any different. Toriyama probably left behind a ton of scrapped designs and story ideas - if not in writing, then in conversation with Toyotaro and others. They'll be reused and expanded upon by animators and writers just like the rest of Super.

Do you really think dbz was akira 100%? lol

dragonball is as close to what akira wanted as it gets. dbz is riding the success wave with quite some input from other people. he never wanted to make going from comdeci to serious and even sad stuff. but it simply made money like crazy so you ride it and work 16 hours a day.

super is more like akiras work than dbz ever was.

It was still Toriyama who writing everything from start to finish, even if he had to adhere to editor oversight it was still him who had to figure out how to make it work.

Super is him giving bullet points to people who then have to actually execute the story, which is a very different thing imo.

Yet it's still a story that Toriyama wanted to tell, same as the OG one, or he wouldn't have even bothered to make a plot outline.

So Super is still a story that Toriyama wanted to tell, no different than the OG series. That is the only thing that matters.

[tonysoprano300]

Do you really think dbz was akira 100%? lol

dragonball is as close to what akira wanted as it gets. dbz is riding the success wave with quite some input from other people. he never wanted to make going from comdeci to serious and even sad stuff. but it simply made money like crazy so you ride it and work 16 hours a day.

super is more like akiras work than dbz ever was.

It was still Toriyama who writing everything from start to finish, even if he had to adhere to editor oversight it was still him who had to figure out how to make it work.

Super is him giving bullet points to people who then have to actually execute the story, which is a very different thing imo.

Yet it's still a story that Toriyama wanted to tell, same as the OG one, or he wouldn't have even bothered to make a plot outline.

So Super is still a story that Toriyama wanted to tell, no different than the OG series. That is the only thing that matters.

I don’t disagree, I'm just saying that its not really as personal as it used to be because writing a story is much than just having bullet points and ideas. Theres a lot that happens in the process of writing something that extends beyond just providing an outline and then approving how someone else executes it. It is still his ideas but Toriyama also happens to be famous for writing the story by the seat of his pants and going on feel.

[Grimlock]

I responded because it felt like you were saying "Choosing to not go beyond the source material is stupid and anyone who does that is stupid" so thanks for clarifying.

No, it did not. Even though English is not my first language, there's no room for misinterpretation on what I said. Especially if you do follow and keep up with my posts, which apparently you do as per your last paragraph.

Even if you want to take this out of context:

Much like how many Star Wars fans refuses to aknowledge anything without involvement from George Lucas as canon, so does some Dragon ball fans dismiss anything without significant involvement by Toriyama as non canon.

Really? I've never been a fan of Star Wars so I don't know much about it. But from what you say I guess stupidity runs wild throughout "fanbases".

It's very clear that what I find to be stupidity is the idea of "Star Wars fans refuses to aknowledge anything without involvement from George Lucas as canon" as well as "dismissing anything without significant involvement by Toriyama as non canon". So you can only come to the understanding that I'm against the notion itself, not the person. Again, this becomes even more apparent when you take other instances where I say the same or similar things. That I don't like that approach, not the person for having that preference. Which is why I don't understand when someone gets offended by that, much like I don't get offended when someone is in any way in disagreement with me.

For instance, it's not hard to find people on this forum who dislike Dragon Ball Heroes for reasons that have nothing to do with "canon". I say this because at your worst, you have a tendency to paint with too broad of a brush when it comes to people who don't like Heroes. It's like you believe those people don't ever have valid reasons for disliking it.

There is no valid reason for dislking Golden Coola while at the same time praising Golden Freeza, which I have witnessed happening many time before. They are both and very equally nonsensical, they are both presented with very equally poor explanation and they both have horrendous designs. But it's Golden Freeza the one to be much more welcomed by the general people because of one very specific and clear reason.

Or even if you want to talk about in general, the way Dragon Ball Heroes presents itself, again, open-mindness is required. It is an arcade game, it is not your conventional animated series or manga. It tells its story through dialogues without cutscenes. The story is interrupted so you can play right in the middle of it before it goes back to the dialogues. You have to rely on fan translations to understand what is going on if you don't know Japanese yourself. You can't expect a conventional format of anything. It is one thing and quite understandable one not liking this format and keeping yourself away from the game because of it, it is another thing to dismiss it based on "Toriyama's not here, it's crap", the latter being a reality. You can't just keep not acknowledging the existence of those who have an unfair view and approach this in bad faith.

The anime: it's a promotional, low-budget, eight-minute, sporadically-released episode series. There's nothing to be fairly judged or said.

The manga: I don't know how free is the author to adapt the story of the arcade into the manga. Though he occasionally takes a few liberties, we don't know if he has full authorship on his work. Be that as it may, it is possible another author could either do a better or worse job.

No, it mischaracterizes the characters. They don't feel Toriyama at all.

Yeah, well, get to used to it. Toriyama is no longer with us. The characters will now be written by other people. This is going to become much more frequent from now on. Your Dragon Ball Super will also have mischaracterized characters, they won't feel Toriyama at all (one can say it's already the case). Get used to it or move on.

The designs are bland. / It's fanfic. / Just to smash figures together.

Nothing different from Dragon Ball Super, then. And while they both share these similarities, one is much more welcomed by the general people because of one very specific and clear reason.

Super Saiyan 4 Gohan/Broly, what a load of 1990's/2000's fan crap

What the hell Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan White (commonly known as "Ultra Instinct") and many other transformations are?

Yeah, none of these specific reasons are valid. All of them is also applicable to the other series, yet they are actively ignored. Because, again, one is much more welcomed by the general people because of one very specific and clear reason. That's when this issue becomes a problem. Some people do have valid reasons for not liking something, it's just that it's not often we come across them, generally it's this presented above type to be more commonly found. Hopefully I made myself very clear this time because I won't justify myself any time someone randomly brings up Dragon Ball Heroes, which has nothing to do with anything.

[Neon Z]

I think a new Tournament of Power could work easily enough and stand out from its predecessor if it has some kind of villain subplot going on within it, like Piccolo Jr in the 23rd Budokai, or the kind of stuff you often saw in stories of old fighting games, like someone using the fighters' energy for an evil plan. or some other way of building up an evil plot in the background (see for example the Gundam Fight in G Gundam).

[Majin Buu]

No, it did not.

I get what you mean- that isn't what you were saying (to be charitable).

The way this is worded though comes across like you're outright denying that your words made me feel a certain way:

Me: "Your post came off a certain way to me"

You: "No, it did not"

When you read it like this, it comes off like you're trying to dictate the experience I had reading what you wrote when that's not what you're trying to do (again, being charitable here).

You're imprecise with the words that you use, which might be part of the problem I'm talking about: That you paint with too broad of a brush when it comes people who don't like Heroes.

there's no room for misinterpretation on what I said. Especially if you do follow and keep up with my posts, which apparently you do as per your last paragraph.

You're right, I do. So I know you tend to be dismissive of people who don't like Heroes.

It's very clear that what I find to be stupidity is the idea of "Star Wars fans refuses to aknowledge anything without involvement from George Lucas as canon"

This is still painting with too broad a brush though. For instance, I could see someone coming to this viewpoint by virtue of having actually checked out and disliked enough non-canon material to determine that they prefer Star Wars when Lucas is involved.

much like I don't get offended when someone is in any way in disagreement with me.

You don't get offended, you get very dismissive. Like, "Ugh, you're one of those aren't you" is the energy you give off when you interact with people that don't like Heroes.

There is no valid reason for dislking Golden Coola while at the same time praising Golden Freeza, which I have witnessed happening many time before. They are both and very equally nonsensical, they are both presented with very equally poor explanation and they both have horrendous designs. But it's Golden Freeza the one to be much more welcomed by the general people because of one very specific and clear reason.

Well, Golden Freeza isn't a particularly inspired idea to begin with, but I would argue that it works better with him than Cooler since it better plays to Freeza's character: It makes sense that a petty and vain person like him would want his new form to be gold. Plus there's the implication that he's just straight up copying the Super Saiyan transformation.

Cooler in contrast isn't petty or vain like Freeza and is more bland in characterization so giving him a golden form doesn't really play to his character the way it does with Freeza. Freeza's new form is gold because it was a conscious design choice on his part to establish that he's the best. Why does Cooler make his new form gold? From what I can tell, only because Freeza's new form is gold. The least they could have done was make him make his new form a different color than gold. How about "Silver Cooler"? That would have at least been somewhat clever.

It is an arcade game, it is not your conventional animated series or manga. It tells its story through dialogues without cutscenes. The story is interrupted so you can play right in the middle of it before it goes back to the dialogues.

I've played Super Dragon Ball Heroes World Mission so I have an idea of how the story is presented in Heroes (and I'm guessing World Mission isn't all that different from the main series in that regard). I'm guessing you assumed my engagement with the brand was zero considering you were speaking to me as such.

No, it mischaracterizes the characters. They don't feel Toriyama at all.

Yeah, well, get to used to it. Toriyama is no longer with us.

If said people think the characterization in Heroes doesn't feel right, that implies that they at least checked out enough of the material to form an opinion on it.

Also, people complain about characterization issues in Super too.

The designs are bland. / It's fanfic. / Just to smash figures together.

Nothing different from Dragon Ball Super, then. And while they both share these similarities, one is much more welcomed by the general people because of one very specific and clear reason.

One of these is the main product the revival era revolves around while the other is a fanservice video game series. Acting like they're equal in stature is a false equivalency. Toriyama's involvement is very much a factor in why people like Super more, but Heroes isn't the main product of the revival era and never was. If no one was taking Toriyama's involvement or lack thereof into account, Heroes would likely still be less popular than Super since Super is the main product.

Super Saiyan 4 Gohan/Broly, what a load of 1990's/2000's fan crap

What the hell Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan White (commonly known as "Ultra Instinct") and many other transformations are?

Your fake quote is about giving existing transformations to characters that never had them in the series proper. Your response to that is about the new transformations Super introduced. You're conflating two different things.

Yeah, none of these specific reasons are valid. All of them is also applicable to the other series, yet they are actively ignored. Because, again, one is much more welcomed by the general people because of one very specific and clear reason. That's when this issue becomes a problem. Some people do have valid reasons for not liking something, it's just that it's not often we come across them, generally it's this presented above type to be more commonly found.

I'm going to end this post with this: I think if Heroes was producing stories on the level of say, the Bardock special, you'd see more people taking it seriously as a brand. I don't think fans write off Heroes because it's not canon so much as because its just not very good. It not being canon just makes it easier to ignore.

[Koitsukai]

Well, Golden Freeza isn't a particularly inspired idea to begin with, but I would argue that it works better with him than Cooler since it better plays to Freeza's character: It makes sense that a petty and vain person like him would want his new form to be gold. Plus there's the implication that he's just straight up copying the Super Saiyan transformation.

Cooler in contrast isn't petty or vain like Freeza and is more bland in characterization so giving him a golden form doesn't really play to his character the way it does with Freeza. Freeza's new form is gold because it was a conscious design choice on his part to establish that he's the best. Why does Cooler make his new form gold? From what I can tell, only because Freeza's new form is gold. The least they could have done was make him make his new form a different color than gold. How about "Silver Cooler"? That would have at least been somewhat clever.

Totally agree. Having both guys become golden implies some type of admiration or competition, oh you cooked noodles, I'll cook noodles... and it's from Cooler's end, nonetheless.
I really don't see Cooler competing (or admiring) with his younger brother like they are equals, that is not congruent with Cooler's characterization, he was shown to behave like he is above Freeza, more mature, better in every way, not just stronger but wiser too. I definitely see Freeza trying to compete with his older brother, but not the other way around.

Silver Cooler? I think it'd be too close to Metal Cooler, taking into account Cooler always had this darker vibe, always in the shadows, I believe a Black Cooler would've suited him much better.
Freeza was the flashy, childish one, so the golden form looks so good on him, and Cooler being the more adult, sinister older brother wearing black just works for me. And this was waaay before Black Freeza was even a thing. They kinda remind me of Bud and Syd from Saint Seiya, also wearing light and dark colors.

Both guys being golden is boring, lazy and uncharacteristic of Cooler.

One of these is the main product the revival era revolves around while the other is a fanservice video game series. Acting like they're equal in stature is a false equivalency. Toriyama's involvement is very much a factor in why people like Super more, but Heroes isn't the main product of the revival era and never was. If no one was taking Toriyama's involvement or lack thereof into account, Heroes would likely still be less popular than Super since Super is the main product.

Curiously enough, I've noticed the DBS anime is much more well received than the manga, and we know the anime had less involvement from Toriyama than the manga. Even with all of its flaws, shit, I think I prefer the anime, too.

[SupremeKai25]

Curiously enough, I've noticed the DBS anime is much more well received than the manga, and we know the anime had less involvement from Toriyama than the manga. Even with all of its flaws, shit, I think I prefer the anime, too.

Because the average viewer doesn't care that Toriyama had less involvement in the Anime compared to the Manga. The average viewer most likely doesn't even know this to begin with.

If you care about researching how Toriyama felt about the quality of scrips or animation of Super Anime, you are no longer the average viewer, you are above average.

The average viewer only cares about this:





To what extent Toriyama was involved -- the average viewer does not care.

[sunsetshimmer]

The average viewer only cares about this:

Spoiler:

To what extent Toriyama was involved -- the average viewer does not care.

If that was the case there wouldn't be any "GT isn't canon" topic ongoing for years. Because Toriyama was credited as author for GT openings/endings as well:


Average viewer doesn't care about that. Average viewer cares about canon/non-canon bullshit other average viewers spread across internet. They care about fake rumors, fake trailers, random facebook fanpages posting fake statements and fake designs for fake arcs that will never exist. Average fan believed in Daishinkan being evil, believed in every "DBS 2.0" fake news spreaded by people like Geekdom to get attention.

What you just described isn't average viewer to me. It's a completely casual viewer who is just watching DB but not following any news regarding that and not interacting with fanbase in any way. A casual viewer who doesn't even know what "canon" means and just knows DB was made by some guy called Toriyama at best. That's type of viewer we all were who watched DB as kids back then and were just enjoying their favorite cartoon and laughing at Goku and Piccolo learning how to drive without even thinking "that episode might not be part of official storyline".

[SupremeKai25]

The average viewer only cares about this:

Spoiler:

To what extent Toriyama was involved -- the average viewer does not care.

If that was the case there wouldn't be any "GT isn't canon" topic ongoing for years. Because Toriyama was credited as author for GT openings/endings as well:

Average viewer doesn't care about that. Average viewer cares about canon/non-canon bullshit other average viewers spread across internet. They care about fake rumors, fake trailers, random facebook fanpages posting fake statements and fake designs for fake arcs that will never exist. Average fan believed in Daishinkan being evil, believed in every "DBS 2.0" fake news spreaded by people like Geekdom to get attention.

What you just described isn't average viewer to me. It's a completely casual viewer who is just watching DB but not following any news regarding that and not interacting with fanbase in any way. A casual viewer who doesn't even know what "canon" means and just knows DB was made by some guy called Toriyama at best. That's type of viewer we all were who watched DB as kids back then and were just enjoying their favorite cartoon and laughing at Goku and Piccolo learning how to drive without even thinking "that episode might not be part of official storyline".

And I would argue that the average viewer doesn't care about GT's canon or non-canon status and just enjoys the product for what it is.

If I were asked by someone at the park or at a bar why I dislike GT, I would say:

"Because the first adventure half is boring and tedious"
"Because the entire Super 17 arc is a joke"
"Because 5 out of the 7 Shadow Dragons are literally just throw-away and forgettable monsters"

"Because it is not cAnOn" or whatnot would be at the very bottom of My list, perhaps not even in it at all.

The point being, you are overestimating how much people really care about GT's status in the overarching franchise. What you are missing, is that the Redditor who asks if GT is not canon, or the random Youtube/Discord user saying that GT is not canon, or the random TikToker saying that GT is not canon -- they are not the average Dragon Ball consumer. They are, again, above the average.

Ultimately, internet circles are an irrelevant fraction of the entire community. They absolutely do not reflect the entire community.

[Grimlock]

Well, Golden Freeza isn't a particularly inspired idea to begin with, but I would argue that it works better with him than Cooler since it better plays to Freeza's character: It makes sense that a petty and vain person like him would want his new form to be gold. Plus there's the implication that he's just straight up copying the Super Saiyan transformation.

Cooler in contrast isn't petty or vain like Freeza and is more bland in characterization so giving him a golden form doesn't really play to his character the way it does with Freeza. Freeza's new form is gold because it was a conscious design choice on his part to establish that he's the best. Why does Cooler make his new form gold? From what I can tell, only because Freeza's new form is gold. The least they could have done was make him make his new form a different color than gold. How about "Silver Cooler"? That would have at least been somewhat clever.

Why would Coola choose another color? He was defeated by Super Saiyan(s), twice. Maybe he understood why Freeza chose the golden color and wanted to do the same. Why would Coola choose "silver"? Was he defeated by a Saiyan using Ultra Instinct or Beast? What's exactly "clever" about that?

If said people think the characterization in Heroes doesn't feel right, that implies that they at least checked out enough of the material to form an opinion on it.

Or maybe not. Sometimes they were exposed to little (like just a cover), involuntarily, and formed an opinion from that, without even need to go as far deep as characterization.

One of these is the main product the revival era revolves around while the other is a fanservice video game series. Acting like they're equal in stature is a false equivalency. Toriyama's involvement is very much a factor in why people like Super more, but Heroes isn't the main product of the revival era and never was. If no one was taking Toriyama's involvement or lack thereof into account, Heroes would likely still be less popular than Super since Super is the main product.

Being the "main product" is hardly an excuse and it won't shield Dragon Ball Super from the same criticisms Dragon Ball Heroes gets, especially when it does the exact same things the games do. And Heroes may not be the "main product of the revival era" but it certainly is one of them. Its popularity and how much incoming it generates in Japan cannot be understated. Not that any of this matter, but anyways.

Your fake quote is about giving existing transformations to characters that never had them in the series proper. Your response to that is about the new transformations Super introduced. You're conflating two different things.

There's nothing new about these Dragon Ball Super transformations. They date back to the same period people were giving existing forms to existing characters. Blue/red/white/pink-haired Super Saiyan forms exist since way back then, along with them giving Super Saiyan 4 to other characters. I'm not conflating anything. It is yet another example of Dragon Ball Super getting "free pass" to do the same shit Dragon Ball Heroes does.

I'm going to end this post with this: I think if Heroes was producing stories on the level of say, the Bardock special, you'd see more people taking it seriously as a brand. I don't think fans write off Heroes because it's not canon so much as because its just not very good. It not being canon just makes it easier to ignore.

Yes, but with the exception of Trunks TV Special, there is absolutely nothing that came before or after Bardock TV Special that matched its level of quality. So no one should be expecting it in the first place. Yeah, but that's where we reach a moot point, because there is no canon. So what's really to ignore here? And, in the event of canonicity being your only reason to dismiss it, what is really your excuse for dismissing it? Because you're essentially dismissing it for a non-existent reason.

[ATA]

When I was younger I used to be deep into canon debates. Now I just don't care. I treat anime canon almost like Family Guy. Outside of manga adaptations, every DB series is its own thing that's free to reference anything in DB lore even if it don't quite make sense. If one series wanna have King Kai planet be destroyed and then another series wanna bring it back....fuck it. Long as the story is entertaining I don't really care anymore.

However in terms of "Toriyama canon" that ended when the manga ended. Even with the alternative ending...it's an alternative ending. Outside of that nothing is canon or non canon. DBGT, BoG, RoF, and Super are DLC. Downloadable Canon

[JoeCapricorn]

Future Dragon Ball productions will probably still say something on the lines of "Based on the manga by Akira Toriyama" regardless of how much posthumous work he did for those.

Dragon Ball could go in a direction where there are multiple different 'canons', like Marvel. Stan Lee passed away, but his creations are still drawn and new content is created. Earth-616 and Earth-199999 exist in the broadest sense of Marvel canon, despite being primarily done in completely different form of media (616 is the Prime comic universe while 199999 is the MCU)

[AliTheZombie13]

Future Dragon Ball productions will probably still say something on the lines of "Based on the manga by Akira Toriyama" regardless of how much posthumous work he did for those.

Dragon Ball could go in a direction where there are multiple different 'canons', like Marvel. Stan Lee passed away, but his creations are still drawn and new content is created. Earth-616 and Earth-199999 exist in the broadest sense of Marvel canon, despite being primarily done in completely different form of media (616 is the Prime comic universe while 199999 is the MCU)

Honestly, I have NEVER seen a single person complain about Spiderman canon, or argue "this isn't written by Stan Lee" when it comes to criticizing Sam Raimi's films, or anything of the sort. Heck, I doubt there's a single person alive who sincerely thinks Disney adaptations are worse than the books they're based on, and Disney is very liberal when it comes to adapting them. It's only Anime fans who ever do this when it comes to adaptations of the source material.