Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

[Jack Bz]

Funny thing is in the super manga Gohan already had a rage boost moment against Moro, and it amounted to nothing. And it was in response to Goku being in extreme mortal danger!:




(Gohan Beast haters rise up)

[The Monkey King]

There was no plot twist. Your simply reaching and connecting dots that aren't there. It's stated that Gohan has rage boost it's not stated that he can't do it.

So between the Cell Games and Super Hero, where were these massive rage boosts when Gohan needed them?

I'm not moving goal posts I posted specific examples from the story. It's just a straw man on your part.

Quoting what you said and what happened in the manga isn't a straw man

More headcanon from you. You took statements out of context and just double down trying to fit them into your misrepresentation of Gohan's power. Gohan himself stated that he was going to transform into SSJ2 willfully. He did that. Not by rage boost.

So why didn't he use SSJ2 against Dabura and Fat Buu if he could do so willingly?

In none of those examples or explanations of yours shows where Gohan can't get explosive power from a rage boost.

Tell me why he didn't get Beast Gohan level rage boosts (or any kind of rage boost at all) in all the examples I listed and why it qualifies as "consistent writing" for Gohan.

Funny thing is in the super manga Gohan already had a rage boost moment against Moro, and it amounted to nothing. And it was in response to Goku being in extreme mortal danger!:

Spoiler:

(Gohan Beast haters rise up)

Absolute GOLD!

As I said before, Gohan was clearly done getting meaningful rage boost power-ups before the Beast Gohan asspull.

I also like how it acknowledges that rage boosts were no longer a Gohan special snowflake thing (Vegeta's "My Bulma!" scene)

[Mr Baggins]

I appreciate Toyotaro trying to develop it since Toriyama doesn't seem too invested in Gohan. I think it's likely that Toriyama would have this as one time Gohan fan service and he slack off again by EoZ.

Fair point. Toriyama did originally plan to write the movie with only Piccolo in mind until the suits asked him to include Gohan. I'd agree he plausibly would have just had him slacking off otherwise, as has become tradition for this character in Super.

It's funny, though. It just occurred to me that Beast's power might be used to set a hard limit for Gohan for the first time, now that he's apparently mastered the emotional burst needed to fully awaken it. Or maybe he'll just slack off again. Something's gotta give in order for Goku to eventually pivot his interest to Oob.

The series is in a place where it's kind of just spinning its wheels now, unfortunately.

[Koitsukai]

Funny thing is in the super manga Gohan already had a rage boost moment against Moro, and it amounted to nothing. And it was in response to Goku being in extreme mortal danger!:




(Gohan Beast haters rise up)

I actually like the form, I love how stupid it looks, even though his Ultimate form was introduced as the next step of transformations, but yeah, reading this discussion, this scene kept popping up in my mind. If daddy getting fisted like that didn't deserve a rage-fueled transformation (with Piccolo waiting on line to get one, too), then why something else would?
But I still like it, so I guess I like my fair share of asspulls, and also understand that not everything will make sense now, as long as it's cool I'll go with the flow.

Probably another hint at Toriyama not given that many fucks about Toyo's manga, or perhaps Goku should get a paternity test because there's more love going to Namek than to Mt. Paozu.
Pan in real danger triggering Beast would've sold it to me, though.

[Mr Baggins]

Probably another hint at Toriyama not given that many fucks about Toyo's manga

Especially Moro, lol. It's the only arc that wasn't mentioned to be a collaborative effort. The only contribution from Toriyama (that we know of) was this art correction and I believe a Jaco one as well.

*edit: also what Ponta said I guess*

[Magnificent Ponta]

Probably another hint at Toriyama not given that many fucks about Toyo's manga

Especially Moro, lol. It's the only arc that wasn't mentioned to be a collaborative effort. The only contribution from Toriyama (that we know of) was this art correction from a single chapter.

I believe Toriyama is also (obliquely) credited with conceiving of Merus as an Angel, which is a pretty significant plot point.

[Yuji]

Funny thing is in the super manga Gohan already had a rage boost moment against Moro, and it amounted to nothing. And it was in response to Goku being in extreme mortal danger!:




(Gohan Beast haters rise up)

I actually like the form, I love how stupid it looks, even though his Ultimate form was introduced as the next step of transformations, but yeah, reading this discussion, this scene kept popping up in my mind. If daddy getting fisted like that didn't deserve a rage-fueled transformation (with Piccolo waiting on line to get one, too), then why something else would?
But I still like it, so I guess I like my fair share of asspulls, and also understand that not everything will make sense now, as long as it's cool I'll go with the flow.

Probably another hint at Toriyama not given that many fucks about Toyo's manga, or perhaps Goku should get a paternity test because there's more love going to Namek than to Mt. Paozu.
Pan in real danger triggering Beast would've sold it to me, though.

You can ask yourself why Gohan never went Super Saiyan in the Namek arc. The plot didn't demand it. Gohan probably felt powerless during the Superhero movie which wasn't necessarily the case during the Moro arc, he was shown there as a very capable fighter. In Superhero everything was also on his shoulders, whereas in the Moro arc he may have subconsciously believed Goku and Vegeta would pull through. Not sure if that would matter for the transformation but it's difference.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not only Enraged Gohan failed to unlock Beast vs Moro, his rage boost couldn't even make him as strong as SSJB Goku. He was leagues behind Goku, but then was rivaling him by the time of the movie.

But tbf, Gohan's rage boosts were never really consistent. Sometimes he's 10x stronger, other times not even 2x stronger...

[Miracles]

There was no plot twist. Your simply reaching and connecting dots that aren't there. It's stated that Gohan has rage boost it's not stated that he can't do it.

So between the Cell Games and Super Hero, where were these massive rage boosts when Gohan needed them?

Doesn't change the fact that his rage boost ability is there; exists.

I'm not moving goal posts I posted specific examples from the story. It's just a straw man on your part.
Quoting what you said and what happened in the manga isn't a straw man

Then don't say I'm moving goal posts. When I say in danger, right in front of him, I posted specific examples of what I meant.

More headcanon from you. You took statements out of context and just double down trying to fit them into your misrepresentation of Gohan's power. Gohan himself stated that he was going to transform into SSJ2 willfully. He did that. Not by rage boost.
So why didn't he use SSJ2 against Dabura and Fat Buu if he could do so willingly?

Who said he didn't? Official sources like the Daizenshuu says he did.

In none of those examples or explanations of yours shows where Gohan can't get explosive power from a rage boost.

Tell me why he didn't get Beast Gohan level rage boosts (or any kind of rage boost at all) in all the examples I listed and why it qualifies as "consistent writing" for Gohan.

The point is, who said/showed Gohan is suppose to have them all the time? Who said there non existent? Only you, not the story which is a straw man on your part.

Let your fanon go.

[The Monkey King]

Doesn't change the fact that his rage boost ability is there; exists.

So you can't give me a straight answer then? In turn admitting Gohan's rage boosts aren't consistent, contrary to what you claimed before?

If the writing wasn't "bad" you would be able to give me a simple logical answer, but you can't because it is in fact bad.

Gohan's rage boosts spontaneously came back after being absent for so long because of lazy writing on Toriyama's part. Simple.

Then don't say I'm moving goal posts. When I say in danger, right in front of him, I posted specific examples of what I meant.

Gohan seeing Goten, Trunks and Piccolo being absorbed right in front of his eyes, isn't enough "danger, right in front him" for an explosive rage boost? Why?

Also where was Gohan's "explosive rage boost" against Moro? Why was it clearly so pathetic and ineffective?

It's simply because I'm right

Gohan couldn't get anymore meaningful rage boost power-ups

Therefore, Beast is an asspull

Who said he didn't? Official sources like the Daizenshuu says he did.

Because he clearly wasn't a SSJ2... if you're going to be this willfully ignorant, stubborn and in denial this will be my last reply to you.

Anyway, Manga > Guidebook.

Gohan wasn't drawn with lightning for a single panel, meanwhile Toriyama drew Goku and Vegeta with lightning while they were fighting in the same 2 chapters Gohan was facing Fat Buu.



If Gohan could transform into a SSJ2 on demand he would have.

Now you're just denying manga canon because you have no argument.

Just like how you deny MUI being Goku's strongest transformation just because you don't like it. Despite the fact it was clearly stated in this very chapter.

The point is, who said/showed Gohan is suppose to have them all the time?

You did.

So the history of Gohan's rage boost is consistent but the key to rage unlocking his power is Gohan always needs someone in danger right in front of him.

There is no bad writing, it's pretty consistent throughout Dragon ball and Super Hero concerning Gohan's rage boosts.

Do you not know what consistent means? It's when you can predictably count on something happening if specific conditions are met.

You claimed if 'XYZ' were to occur Gohan would get a massive rage boost. I've thoroughly debunked that.

If a key doesn't work 90% of the time the last word I would use to describe it would be "consistent"

If Gohan's rage boosts didn't occur in multiple situations where they should have, how is that anything if not bad writing?

Let your fanon go.

Coming from you of all people this is hilarious.

Tell me more about Beerus' secret off-screen training sessions with Whis, that no character ever talks about.

[Miracles]

Doesn't change the fact that his rage boost ability is there; exists.

So you can't give me a straight answer then? In turn admitting Gohan's rage boosts aren't consistent, contrary to what you claimed before?

If the writing wasn't "bad" you would be able to give me a simple logical answer, but you can't because it is in fact bad.

Gohan's rage boosts spontaneously came back after being absent for so long because of lazy writing on Toriyama's part. Simple.

Then don't say I'm moving goal posts. When I say in danger, right in front of him, I posted specific examples of what I meant.

Gohan seeing Goten, Trunks and Piccolo being absorbed right in front of his eyes, isn't enough "danger, right in front him" for an explosive rage boost? Why?

Also where was Gohan's "explosive rage boost" against Moro? Why was it clearly so pathetic and ineffective?

It's simply because I'm right

Gohan couldn't get anymore meaningful rage boost power-ups

Therefore, Beast is an asspull

Who said he didn't? Official sources like the Daizenshuu says he did.

Because he clearly wasn't a SSJ2... if you're going to be this willfully ignorant, stubborn and in denial this will be my last reply to you.

Anyway, Manga > Guidebook.

Gohan wasn't drawn with lightning for a single panel, meanwhile Toriyama drew Goku and Vegeta with lightning while they were fighting in the same 2 chapters Gohan was facing Fat Buu.



If Gohan could transform into a SSJ2 on demand he would have.

Now you're just denying manga canon because you have no argument.

Just like how you deny MUI being Goku's strongest transformation just because you don't like it. Despite the fact it was clearly stated in this very chapter.

The point is, who said/showed Gohan is suppose to have them all the time?

You did.

So the history of Gohan's rage boost is consistent but the key to rage unlocking his power is Gohan always needs someone in danger right in front of him.

There is no bad writing, it's pretty consistent throughout Dragon ball and Super Hero concerning Gohan's rage boosts.

Do you not know what consistent means? It's when you can predictably count on something happening if specific conditions are met.

You claimed if 'XYZ' were to occur Gohan would get a massive rage boost. I've thoroughly debunked that.

If a key doesn't work 90% of the time the last word I would use to describe it would be "consistent"

If Gohan's rage boosts didn't occur in multiple situations where they should have, how is that anything if not bad writing?

Let your fanon go.

Coming from you of all people this is hilarious.

Tell me more about Beerus' secret off-screen training sessions with Whis, that no character ever talks about.

Your concession is accepted. You can't show me where Gohan's rage boosts ended and now you are claiming the manga said it's something he is suppose to have every time despite the fact the Buu saga showed otherwise. Since it's said in the Buu saga that Gohan has to get angry like it was against CELL. The specific examples I laid out is like that. I don't got time to argue against your pride of assumptions. You failed to bring objective facts.

Oh and BTW, Whis said Beerus has not mastered Ultra Instinct yet. That means there is a future that he will. That's not a headcanon but a straight line from the story.

Let it go of your fanon.

[The Monkey King]

Your concession is accepted.

Says the guy who got desperate enough to start denying manga canon and can't give any of my questions straight answers because the writing he is defending is so garbage.

But you know what's hilarious, even if we go with the Daizenshuu, guess what? It proved me right.

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Due to Gohan's lack of training AND lack of rage boost he was still weaker than his child self.

Therefore, even if Gohan did get a full on rage boost, he still would've been weaker than his SSJ2 self during the Cell Games. Just like what I said earlier.

This super-hidden-rage-potential-Gohan Goku and Vegeta were speculating about, quite simply didn't exist in the Buu saga.

It's also funny that you mention Gohan's lack of training, because all of Gohan's rage boosts prior to SSJ2 weren't enough the defeat the person he was fighting. It's only after training with Goku is that he finally had a rage boost that he could utilise effectively. Lack of proper training is why Future Gohan died miserably.

The Buu saga framed Gohan not training during the 7 year timeskip as a bad thing, if he just needed a rage boost to leap frog everyone again it would ruin that narrative entirely.

So now, even Official sources like the Daizenshuu that you held is such his esteem just a couple posts ago agree with me.

You can't show me where Gohan's rage boosts ended

They went the way of saiyan tails. Gone because Toriyama was done with them, despite character's claims to the contrary.

Spoiler:

and now you are claiming the manga said it's something he is suppose to have every time

So Gohan's rage boosts aren't consistent like you claimed? Concession accepted.

I didn't say they have to happen every time, I just pointed out that they NEVER happened between the Cell Games and Super Hero in situations where they had every reason to.

Gohan's not being able to get explosive rage boosts for decades and suddenly being able to again out of nowhere is bad writing.

despite the fact the Buu saga showed otherwise. Since it's said in the Buu saga that Gohan has to get angry like it was against CELL.

The Buu saga showed that even if Gohan sees Piccolo, Goten and Trunks eaten right before his eyes that isn't enough to trigger a rage boost of any kind.

If he could've gotten one he would've gotten one, but how could he since he had his potential unleashed beyond his limits by the Old Kai? If Gohan's rage boosts draw upon his latent power but all of Gohan's latent power had been accessed, how could getting angry make him any stronger anyway? What's there to draw upon?

Just another reason why Beast is a lazy asspull.

Anyway, the Daizenshuu states a Rage Boost from a rusty Gohan wouldn't even put him on the same level he was during the Cell Games (another reason why Beast is an asspull)

The Moro arc showed that not only were Ultimate Gohan's "rage boosts" pathetic, they aren't even acknowledged as Gohan specific (another reason why Beast is an asspull)

You failed to bring objective facts.

You're the one who stated Beast Gohan isn't bad writing and Gohan's rage boosts are "consistent" but can't defend either point.
Concession accepted.

Oh and BTW, Whis said Beerus has not mastered Ultra Instinct yet. That means there is a future that he will. That's not a headcanon but a straight line from the story.

Sure... but that's not all you claim as fact now is it?

There is no if's about it, Beerus got stronger due to Whis escalating his strength himself.

That's cause people are ignoring the fact that Whis stated Beerus hasn't "quite" perfected UI "yet." Meaning in pursuit; on it's way. Then Whis says Beerus may be handled by two Blue's which obviously means Beerus got stronger. Since a Red back in BoG pushed him to 70%.

Now THIS is headcanon fan conjecture.

Surely you can show me a single panel or interview from Toriyama/Toyotarou confirming Beerus and Whis do in fact train off-screen and in secret when Goku and Vegeta aren't looking.

If not, concession accepted.

I know it's off-topic but that is just another example of you turning a blind eye to Super's lazy, awful writing and making stuff up instead.
It's okay that Super's writing isn't perfect (or even good) but you won't explode if you admit that, I promise.

[VegettoEX]

Y'all are just so. darn. rude. to each other!

This has to end, both for the attitude reasons, and because it's veered so far off course from being about this actual chapter of the Dragon Ball Super manga specifically. Additional posts of this topic and type will receive account strikes, which add up and contribute to account bans (either temporary or permanent).

Several of you already have account strikes on file, which at this point means you're going for a total nuke. This is not a thing you should strive for, and you should not be making this type of conversation reflective of either yourself or the wider community as a whole. It's extremely embarrassing to have to read (nevermind respond to!).

[TheMikado]

Ok so I’m really going to need some help here… I’ve recently been watching some old DBZ movies and Super Hero recently..

So Beast Gohan is in the same league as Perfect UI Goku which also Ultra Ego Vegeta is in and Black Frieza is above all that and I guess Orange Piccolo sits below all of this..

Beerus sits in GoD territory and Jiren and Broly are where now? Also Roshi was apparently doing UI stuff so is he still a contender, he probably never should have been in the same conversation for the tournament of power after saying repeatedly for decades he’d only get in the way..

So uh, what’s up with all the power levels and color changes at this point. I keep dipping out of modern Dragonball but pop back in once in a while when something crazy hits the internet. Are we basically just making Mattel manga/anime for toy sales?

[Thani]

So Beast Gohan is in the same league as Perfect UI Goku which also Ultra Ego Vegeta is in and Black Frieza is above all that and I guess Orange Piccolo sits below all of this..

Correct. Gohan still considers Piccolo pretty awesome, though, so the difference might be small enough for him to contend.

Beerus sits in GoD territory and Jiren and Broly are where now? Also Roshi was apparently doing UI stuff so is he still a contender, he probably never should have been in the same conversation for the tournament of power after saying repeatedly for decades he’d only get in the way..

So, apparently, they're all still on the nebulous "GoD territory", for whatever that means anymore. The only thing we know is that Broly can't access his full power right now and that Jiren (as he was in the ToP) has definitely been surpassed (by Goku at least).

Roshi has some form of proto-UI, but it's nowhere near as effective as the real deal, so he won't be getting any relevance anytime soon imo.

So uh, what’s up with all the power levels and color changes at this point. I keep dipping out of modern Dragonball but pop back in once in a while when something crazy hits the internet. Are we basically just making Mattel manga/anime for toy sales?

Well, DB has always been like this imo, so I guess?

[Jiren The Alpha]

Funny thing is in the super manga Gohan already had a rage boost moment against Moro, and it amounted to nothing. And it was in response to Goku being in extreme mortal danger!:




(Gohan Beast haters rise up)

His rage boost did not work because he had 2 right hands at that moment.

[Miracles]

Pertaining to the chapter Beerus is right to ask Whis if Silver-Haired Goku is Goku's strongest form. Despite Goku already telling Gohan that both should use their best. Goku held back SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta, He lied about using full power against Fat Buu. Held back Full power Blue in the Future Trunks arc. We as the audience already know he hasn't mastered Silver-Haired since the last arc. In roder to compensate he used Ultra Instinct Sign [True UI] as his stronger form for now. Since he can put his emotions to work due to Bardocks influential battle against Gas.

[kemuri07]

So uh, what’s up with all the power levels and color changes at this point. I keep dipping out of modern Dragonball but pop back in once in a while when something crazy hits the internet. Are we basically just making Mattel manga/anime for toy sales?

The easy answer to this is: yes.

[dragonballhero]

I'll say this much, I do hope that Goten and Trunks will be given more to do following this chapter. Call me crazy, but it doesn't seem like much of a coincidence that the boys' lack of proper guidance in terms of martial arts was brought up quite a lot during the Super Hero arc...

[Vectur123]

I'll say this much, I do hope that Goten and Trunks will be given more to do following this chapter. Call me crazy, but it doesn't seem like much of a coincidence that the boys' lack of proper guidance in terms of martial arts was brought up quite a lot during the Super Hero arc...

Specially Vegeta seeing that, i think they will be trained too