Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

Beerus is always in the destruction mindstate. The following chapter even shows Vegeta exclusively practicing and using Hakai, just as Goku is able to use UI's evasion in lower forms.

Then, by the time he first transforms into Ultra Ego, the V Jump editorial note explicitly states "The power of destruction has been awakened!!", so it's 100% a destruction-based form. Vegeta then tells Granolah outright that the Ultra Ego transformation is his own and not Beerus's – it just allows him to fully tap into the power/mindset that Beerus always has.

The manga doesn't imply anywhere that Beerus has some secret unseen transformation that he's kept hidden the whole time. UE's principles are just the God of Destruction counterpart to UI's principles, so they're always in the state that Vegeta dubs "Ultra Ego". Virtually all official materials mention it's a form that allows Vegeta to use God of Destruction ki.

[QuakingStar]

Yet Goku used Hakai on Fused Zamasu and it was working if not for him stopping it, and he did it without needing to use UE.

I think you misread my comment a bit, I said Beerus used a technique not a transformation(he doesn't need a transformation for it) and it likely shot his ki up. Otherwise he didn't show Vegeta a single damn thing, and all Vegeta learned was what he told Vegeta before he invites Vegeta to watch him and copy his technique which according to you there was no technique for him to see and then copy. He already saw Destruction multiple times, so it is not destruction Beerus was telling him to watch for and steal.

IF what you are saying is the case, then it is just another bit of retcon and plot stupidity.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think Goku said he screwed the Hakai because he didn't make it explode.

Had Vegeta really seen Destruction multiple times though? I don't remember Beerus ever using destruction before in the series, aside from when he killed Zamasu.

I think it might be worth pointing out that, in one of those video interviews, Toyotaro said the idea behind UE was basically "Goku has this technique of the Angels, so why not give Vegeta the technique of the GoDs?". Vegeta only uses Hakai once or twice on Cereal so I don't think that was the big deal about it. Unless it's about mindsets? As in, UI Goku is calm like an Angel and UE Vegeta is battle-hungry like a GoD.

And of course, there's the "my power is boundless" line. In any other case this wouldn't be taken literally, but in this context (A character whose strength keeps surpassing expectations is teaching another a technique to raise his power) it's easy to read it this way.

[Mr Baggins]

Yet Goku used Hakai on Fused Zamasu and it was working if not for him stopping it, and he did it without needing to use UE.

Again, the Granolah arc clarifies all this. Right after Beerus takes out Vegeta at the start, Goku calls back to the Hakai he used against Zamasu and says it was a pale imitation. What this means is that the Saiyans can use lesser variants of those techniques without needing a full-blown transformation, much like how Goku is able to use a lesser version of UI without actually toggling the Ultra Instinct form.

What Beerus tells Vegeta to steal is directly followed up on in the next chapter when Beerus then explains the principles of destruction. He was very clearly talking about that. It's what Ultra Ego's whole ki entails.

The point being made here is that Ultra Ego is to the Gods of Destruction what Ultra Instinct is to the Angels. They're voluntary forms exclusive to Vegeta and Goku, but not really a thing that the genuine articles have because it's permanently active for them, as Whis explains when describing Ultra Instinct.

[Jack Bz]

Does Vegeta even use hakai after he transforms into UE?

Funny how that technique literally didn't matter whatsoever despite the chapters before the fight hyping it up.

[Mr Baggins]

Does Vegeta even use hakai after he transforms into UE?

Yes, or some flashy version of it, in any case.

(man, flipping through this shitty arc again is physically painful lol)

[Hugo Boss]

Also, when Vegeta was fighting Granolah as well. The destructive sphere even makes a huge explosion when Granolah pushes it back to Vegeta.

[The Monkey King]

Does Vegeta even use hakai after he transforms into UE?

Yes, or some flashy version of it, in any case.

(man, flipping through this shitty arc again is physically painful lol)

Truly the worst transformation in Dragon Ball history

• Lost every fight it was used in

• Its "gimmick" makes Vegeta take too much damage and lose

• the power boost it grants him by taking damage is almost worthless

• He doesn't manage to hakai anything

• The last thing a character says about it is "A technique that damages the user, how stupid!"

• Never seen again for almost 2 years now.

You could almost say it's built for a jobber.

[The Monkey King]

Someone on Reddit pointed out that Android 17 would've given Beerus a better fight than SSJG Goku in Battle of Gods and I can't stop laughing

[QuakingStar]

Again, I am not arguing that Beerus would or would not be using a transformation. I am saying he likely does shoot up in power when actually using UE and it being a technique Vegeta was able to copy it by watching Beerus use it. If there is no visual difference there had to be something about it Vegeta noticed and could copy and he then uses it himself. The mindset of a destroyer is obviously needed for it same way UI has its own mindset requirement to use it.

[SupremeKai25]

Someone on Reddit pointed out that Android 17 would've given Beerus a better fight than SSJG Goku in Battle of Gods and I can't stop laughing

An inevitability of power-creep. It was a problem in DBZ too.

Remember how it took like 100 episodes for Frieza to be defeated on Namek? Android 18 would finger-flick him in a few seconds.

[LoganForkHands73]

An inevitability of power-creep. It was a problem in DBZ too.

Remember how it took like 100 episodes for Frieza to be defeated on Namek? Android 18 would finger-flick him in a few seconds.

When you put it that way, the Androids are like the great equalizers in the power hierarchy. No matter how many powerful aliens, demons, gods and extra-universal warriors appear, a few random teenagers with infinite energy reactors can catch up to any threat easily. Either that, or a boffin related to Dr. Gero can just create a new set.

Now that Hedo is one of the gang, I’m half expecting him to use Capsule Corp resources to continue his research and design even more powerful androids (i.e. more action figures) to defend the weak. The Greek alphabet Jinzoningen army could easily become the new it-crowd, next to the Saiyans.

RE: Ultra Ego. I always saw it as Vegeta’s (possibly flawed) interpretation of Beerus’s teachings. We know that Vegeta invented the name - like all techniques he learns, he has to slap some fatuous label on it to make it more his own. Ultra Ego may just be the closest a Saiyan can come to strafing the near-limitless power of a true Hakaishin, similar to how Goku’s silver Ultra Instinct transformation ironically holds him back from fully integrating the technique into his everyday self. I can’t imagine Beerus verbally instructing Vegeta to let himself get pummelled in order to get stronger. As we see in the Granolah arc battle scenes, that principle only produces, to be generous, mixed results. It was probably something Vegeta came up with himself to reconcile the new destructive power with his natural Saiyan bloodlust/“zenkai” power.

I imagine that Beerus didn’t impart much more wisdom to Vegeta than the “always think of destruction” nugget, which Vegeta ran with. Beerus isn’t mentor material, he’s too lazy and mercurial to keep his mind on a task that doesn’t gratify him constantly, hence why Whis had to provide an extra incentive to motivate him by adding a competitive edge. We later see that most of Vegeta’s training seemingly consists of Beerus languidly flinging heavy objects around and getting Vegeta to practice destroying them. Not super stimulating for either of them.

[Miracles]

A fusion with Spirit Fission in the Galactic Patrol arc couldn't even beat Moro73 with Spirit Fission. Blue fusions are still currently weaker than Beerus.

[SupremeKai25]

Anyone who is not Zamasu/Zeno/Angels gets oneshot by Hakai.

Your fave is not one of those? Too bad! He gets oneshot by Hakai.

It's simple...

[ZombieVito]

Seems like

Spoiler:

Gohan knocks Goku out of UI lmao.

[QuakingStar]

Not only that.

Spoiler:

He seems to be fighting Super Saiyan Broly pretty easily. The Gohan haters are in the mud right now.

[Yuji]

It seems the chapter clarifies how all the characters stand in comparison to each other.

1. Gogeta/Vegetto Blue
2. Gohan/Broly
3. Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo

Beerus should probably be in tier 2 considering he's stated to be on par with Broly and weaker than Vegetto, but realistically he's either tier 0 or tier 1.5.

Unsure of where Freeza stands at this point. He had an easier time with Goku so he should be above Gohan and Broly at least.

[shadd21]

To anyone who still think Broly isn't among the strongest because of the Granola arc...

[SupremeKai25]

and weaker than Vegetto,

Claimed by Supreme Kai, who is not a reliable or valid narrator.

From a Meta perspective, Toyotaro in 2017 most certainly didn't have the authority to decide who is stronger than Beerus, considering how the entire Super storyline is about mortals trying to reach Beerus' level.

Do you really think Toriyama would let Toyotaro decide that Vegito is stronger than Beerus? Keep in mind that Toriyama in 2017 was already working on the script for Super Hero, where Beerus clearly remains the top dog.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Super Hero doesn't feature or even mentions fusion so it's not really relevant here.

If you want something from the movies, Gogeta Blue ran circles around someone as strong as Beerus.