The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[Dr. Casey]

I don't think anything's changed or that willingness to train is related to race. Saiyans have a love for fighting but not necessarily for training; the former is universal/almost universal, the latter is probably as individualized for Saiyans as it is for humans. A lot of Saiyans from the old days were probably lazy brutes who enjoyed using their natural strength to domineer the weak but never would have put themselves through a difficult training regime. It's probable that Gohan was indeed turned off by fighting thanks to his childhood, and the fact that Pan loves training so much despite being a quarter-Saiyan (much moreso than the three half-Saiyan males) also implies that interest in training and in martial arts in general is probably just a personal thing rather than species-related.

[tonysoprano300]

I'm sure Goku probably thought the afterlife would be more exciting thanit ultimately was(although if we’re going by the anime continuity, then it was exciting)

Isn't that one anime mini-arc semi-canon? The Grand Kai is directly referenced in Toriyama's material and one of the filler Kais makes a cameo in the manga.

Some of the characters yea, but I believe thats all

[WittyUsername]

Weirdly enough, The thing about the half breed saiyans not having the will to improve and push themselves like their full blooded fathers always kind of rubbed me the wrong way, at least when you incorporate the context of the original DB. When Goku went through his adventures as a kid, he contended with and fought alongside plenty of legit martial artists who pushed themselves hard for the sake of improving themselves. Krillin, Tien and Yamcha all embraced this ideology. Its seemed to be a philosophical thing that a good martial artist would embrace and I got the sense that they all pushed themselves because of that.

It seemed like something they were taught rather than it being inherently due to saiyan biology, turtle school’s philosophy of avoiding defeat by ones own self and seeking out challenge to test your ability and further focus your training ultimately feels like something Goku was always gonna do anyway because he’s a saiyan.

I always preferred the idea of Gohan not liking battle(although even that’s somewhat inconsistent) because he was abducted as a child and forced to be weapon for an upcoming war. And that Goku never really had an opportunity to impart the martial arts philosophies taught to him by various masters because Chi Chi wouldn’t allow it. Not necessarily because he isn’t a full blooded saiyan.

Once Goku was revealed to be an alien, pretty much every aspect of his personality was retroactively established as being the result of his Saiyan heritage. Even his appetite is apparently because of his biology, and the only reason he isn’t evil is because he has brain damage.

[tonysoprano300]

Weirdly enough, The thing about the half breed saiyans not having the will to improve and push themselves like their full blooded fathers always kind of rubbed me the wrong way, at least when you incorporate the context of the original DB. When Goku went through his adventures as a kid, he contended with and fought alongside plenty of legit martial artists who pushed themselves hard for the sake of improving themselves. Krillin, Tien and Yamcha all embraced this ideology. Its seemed to be a philosophical thing that a good martial artist would embrace and I got the sense that they all pushed themselves because of that.

It seemed like something they were taught rather than it being inherently due to saiyan biology, turtle school’s philosophy of avoiding defeat by ones own self and seeking out challenge to test your ability and further focus your training ultimately feels like something Goku was always gonna do anyway because he’s a saiyan.

I always preferred the idea of Gohan not liking battle(although even that’s somewhat inconsistent) because he was abducted as a child and forced to be weapon for an upcoming war. And that Goku never really had an opportunity to impart the martial arts philosophies taught to him by various masters because Chi Chi wouldn’t allow it. Not necessarily because he isn’t a full blooded saiyan.

Once Goku was revealed to be an alien, pretty much every aspect of his personality was retroactively established as being the result of his Saiyan heritage. Even his appetite is apparently because of his biology, and the only reason he isn’t evil is because he has brain damage.

Hell given the context of Minus and the Granolah arc, even Goku’s “soft hearted” nature is now a trait passed onto him from Bardock and Gine.

[tonysoprano300]

I don't think anything's changed or that willingness to train is related to race. Saiyans have a love for fighting but not necessarily for training; the former is universal/almost universal, the latter is probably as individualized for Saiyans as it is for humans. A lot of Saiyans from the old days were probably lazy brutes who enjoyed using their natural strength to domineer the weak but never would have put themselves through a difficult training regime. It's probable that Gohan was indeed turned off by fighting thanks to his childhood, and the fact that Pan loves training so much despite being a quarter-Saiyan (much moreso than the three half-Saiyan males) also implies that interest in training and in martial arts in general is probably just a personal thing rather than species-related.

This all also depends on how much stock we put in anything Radditz said at the beginning of the saiyan arc. According to Radditz, saiyan babies are sent to weak planets like Earth so that they can gain years of training and practice. However, everything Radditz said has been so heavily retconned to the point where it seems he had no clue what he was talking about.

[MasenkoHA]

Weirdly enough, The thing about the half breed saiyans not having the will to improve and push themselves like their full blooded fathers always kind of rubbed me the wrong way, at least when you incorporate the context of the original DB. When Goku went through his adventures as a kid, he contended with and fought alongside plenty of legit martial artists who pushed themselves hard for the sake of improving themselves. Krillin, Tien and Yamcha all embraced this ideology. Its seemed to be a philosophical thing that a good martial artist would embrace and I got the sense that they all pushed themselves because of that.

It seemed like something they were taught rather than it being inherently due to saiyan biology, turtle school’s philosophy of avoiding defeat by ones own self and seeking out challenge to test your ability and further focus your training ultimately feels like something Goku was always gonna do anyway because he’s a saiyan.

I always preferred the idea of Gohan not liking battle(although even that’s somewhat inconsistent) because he was abducted as a child and forced to be weapon for an upcoming war. And that Goku never really had an opportunity to impart the martial arts philosophies taught to him by various masters because Chi Chi wouldn’t allow it. Not necessarily because he isn’t a full blooded saiyan.

Once Goku was revealed to be an alien, pretty much every aspect of his personality was retroactively established as being the result of his Saiyan heritage. Even his appetite is apparently because of his biology, and the only reason he isn’t evil is because he has brain damage.

Hell given the context of Minus and the Granolah arc, even Goku’s “soft hearted” nature is now a trait passed onto him from Bardock and Gine.

To be fair, he was still depicted as feral and aggressive when Grandpa Gohan first found him.

But yeah I'm not a fan of the more modern material putting a spin that everything about Goku from his love of fighting to his appetite to his pure heart comes from his lineage.

[Skar]

Yeah, if they were willing to go past the original story's ending they probably would have done that in the first place.

Yeah all the arcs in Super could've easily taken place after EoZ with minor changes if there was any intention to go past it. Toriyama mentioned the characters being too old a few times and giving Vegeta a mustache. I think he mixed up his EoZ design for Vegeta with the one he created for GT or it might be how he envisions Vegeta after settling down more. I also remember this from the 30th anniversery in 2016:

How did you feel as you were drawing the final portions of the series?

The Artificial Human and Cell story arc was pretty rough… I guess you could say I did all I could with Freeza, so I was burned out, and figured I couldn’t pull off a better battle than that. I thought, “Do I really have to keep going?” Even when Cell ended, it still didn’t feel like it could end. So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was. So my starting point for the Boo arc was, “This is the end, so I’m going to draw whatever I want!” I always liked dumb gags, so I made things comical, with the Great Saiyaman and Gotenks and whatnot. It wasn’t until immediately before the final chapter that I thought up the ending. I needed something that would signal this truly was the end, so I jumped forward ten years… But I didn’t count on the series continuing in anime form11, so I bet it was really rough on everyone over at the anime company. (laughs)
When the kanzenban came out several years later, I added a bit more to the ending.10 I thought that somehow it just didn’t click. I wanted to make it more clear that Goku’s battles were over, and that a new generation was taking over.

He's emphasizing the updated Kanzenban ending was the end of Goku's story. Someone could argue that only reflects his thoughts back then but this interview is after Super started so it seems to still apply. I think it also relates to the other topic here about the next generation. DB is Goku's story so it started when he took over from the previous generation and ends when the next generation takes over from him. EoZ established the half Saiyans aren't interested in training so next generation is mostly just Uub. Pan might grow up like the half Saiyans and only interested at a young age.

[Zephyr]

But yeah I'm not a fan of the more modern material putting a spin that everything about Goku from his love of fighting to his appetite to his pure heart comes from his lineage.

The original run also tries to spin his love of fighting as being the result of 'nature' rather than 'nurture', but I've never really found that convincing because it's at odds with everything else we see. The 'martial arts bug' as we might call it is hardly unique to the Saiyans throughout the story (something the modern material leans into pretty well), and even among Saiyans Goku is an aberration in his dedication to the craft of it all.

The characters can (and do) say that it's the Saiyan blood at work, but they could also say that Goku has never once in his life used the Kamehameha; that wouldn't make it true! What is true is that Saiyan genetics and its cheats (near death recovery, transformations, etc.) intersect with Goku's unique dedication to the sport, allowing him to get as strong as he does. That is why he makes reckless gambles for the sake of fair and thrilling tests of might, such as crushing the Potara, or letting Piccolo get a free hit on him and yearning for him to get even stronger after letting him go (something which comes before the 'Saiyan heritage' retcon).

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Toriyama had characters attribute Goku's fighting spirit to his Saiyan genetics as a way to show how incorrect they were, I'm saying it was sloppy of Toriyama to deliver exposition that actually doesn't really track.

[kemuri07]

Weirdly enough, The thing about the half breed saiyans not having the will to improve and push themselves like their full blooded fathers always kind of rubbed me the wrong way, at least when you incorporate the context of the original DB. When Goku went through his adventures as a kid, he contended with and fought alongside plenty of legit martial artists who pushed themselves hard for the sake of improving themselves. Krillin, Tien and Yamcha all embraced this ideology. Its seemed to be a philosophical thing that a good martial artist would embrace and I got the sense that they all pushed themselves because of that.

It seemed like something they were taught rather than it being inherently due to saiyan biology, turtle school’s philosophy of avoiding defeat by ones own self and seeking out challenge to test your ability and further focus your training ultimately feels like something Goku was always gonna do anyway because he’s a saiyan.

I always preferred the idea of Gohan not liking battle(although even that’s somewhat inconsistent) because he was abducted as a child and forced to be weapon for an upcoming war. And that Goku never really had an opportunity to impart the martial arts philosophies taught to him by various masters because Chi Chi wouldn’t allow it. Not necessarily because he isn’t a full blooded saiyan.

Once Goku was revealed to be an alien, pretty much every aspect of his personality was retroactively established as being the result of his Saiyan heritage. Even his appetite is apparently because of his biology, and the only reason he isn’t evil is because he has brain damage.

Hell given the context of Minus and the Granolah arc, even Goku’s “soft hearted” nature is now a trait passed onto him from Bardock and Gine.

Uugh. RIP Toriyama, but some of his worst writing was happening during this period. Absolutely hate Minus for straight up making the Kakkarot/Kal-El comparisons literal, and the Granolah arc makes a pretty good argument that the entirety of Super should just be made non-canon.

The problem with these arguments over canon or what were Toriyama’s intentions with the Saiyans is that there’s a clear lack of consistency within Toriyama’s writing to make sense of this. No, not every writer has to be George R R Martin, but there’s a haphazardness to the way Super tries to fill in the blanks that makes the previous material actually worse.

[Koitsukai]

It seems the revival gave him the opportunity to retcon/recontextualize things that interviews couldn't. Like "Goku gives 0 fucks about his friends, only fighting, nothing else", yet he almost got himself killed by Tambourine due to his friend, friend who also prompted the SS transformation, etc.

Watching his interviews, opposite to reading them with whatever intent the reader can give to those lines, made me realize that he tended to be kinda dismissive, even whimsical to the notions of the stereotypical, friend-and-justice oriented lead. "But Goku has friends and-- NOPE HE HATES THEM, LOVES FIGHTING ONLY, SORRY NOT SORRY". Even though we know Goku was never that stereotype.
Like he wanted to detach Goku so bad from something people were used to and Toei wanted to portray in movies, that he started saying things that didn't correlate with what he had drawn in the first place, they weren't that far off either, but didn't quite fit completely.

So he seemed to seize the revival to say, among other things, "Goku is like this and that because of science, fuck what I wrote or implied 30 years ago, it's actually like this".

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama's writing suffers most when he's trying too hard to be subversive. His ideas of subverting 'generic' ideas of right-and-wrong wind up becoming their own codified 'rule', so by trying to break the 'rules' of general writing and storytelling he's only further solidifying his story as following the rules of Dragon Ball. For example, by trying to make Gokuu less like a 'generic hero' character (or whatever you want to call it), he's really only re-enforced the generic element of Gokuu. It's boring when your lead character isn't really experiencing relatable human feelings, and that's something nobody around Toriyama was willing to actually tell him. Like, there's a reason one of the best scenes in the Dragon Ball Super animated series was the scene where Gokuu learned what Gokuu Black had done to his family in the timeline that Gokuu Black came from and Gokuu's reaction of horror and anger actually hit.

Subverting expectations is a tool to use wisely, not like a blunt instrument.

[AliTheZombie13]

How did you feel as you were drawing the final portions of the series?

The Artificial Human and Cell story arc was pretty rough… I guess you could say I did all I could with Freeza, so I was burned out, and figured I couldn’t pull off a better battle than that. I thought, “Do I really have to keep going?” Even when Cell ended, it still didn’t feel like it could end. So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was. So my starting point for the Boo arc was, “This is the end, so I’m going to draw whatever I want!” I always liked dumb gags, so I made things comical, with the Great Saiyaman and Gotenks and whatnot. It wasn’t until immediately before the final chapter that I thought up the ending. I needed something that would signal this truly was the end, so I jumped forward ten years… But I didn’t count on the series continuing in anime form11, so I bet it was really rough on everyone over at the anime company. (laughs)
When the kanzenban came out several years later, I added a bit more to the ending.10 I thought that somehow it just didn’t click. I wanted to make it more clear that Goku’s battles were over, and that a new generation was taking over.

Well, that explains why the Cell and Boo Sagas felt so disjointed to me.
Honestly, if Toriyama was feeling like that, maybe it would've been better to end the show after Freeza or Cell, I don't know why he kept going. And it pretty much sums up all of Super to me, "Did this really have to exist? Everything we're seeing here, we've already seen before and done better. Shouldn't DB just end already? Why are they still going?"

[MasenkoHA]

I'm surprised he knew going into the Boo arc he was going to end it and still tried to make Gohan the lead character. I just assumed the attempt to make Gohan the main character was to try to make the manga run a bit longer, while acknowledging Goku had been exhausted as a character.

But yeah I'm not a fan of the more modern material putting a spin that everything about Goku from his love of fighting to his appetite to his pure heart comes from his lineage.

The original run also tries to spin his love of fighting as being the result of 'nature' rather than 'nurture', but I've never really found that convincing because it's at odds with everything else we see. The 'martial arts bug' as we might call it is hardly unique to the Saiyans throughout the story (something the modern material leans into pretty well), and even among Saiyans Goku is an aberration in his dedication to the craft of it all.

The characters can (and do) say that it's the Saiyan blood at work, but they could also say that Goku has never once in his life used the Kamehameha; that wouldn't make it true! What is true is that Saiyan genetics and its cheats (near death recovery, transformations, etc.) intersect with Goku's unique dedication to the sport, allowing him to get as strong as he does. That is why he makes reckless gambles for the sake of fair and thrilling tests of might, such as crushing the Potara, or letting Piccolo get a free hit on him and yearning for him to get even stronger after letting him go (something which comes before the 'Saiyan heritage' retcon).

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Toriyama had characters attribute Goku's fighting spirit to his Saiyan genetics as a way to show how incorrect they were, I'm saying it was sloppy of Toriyama to deliver exposition that actually doesn't really track.

Good points. And it's true the "nature over nurture" goes back to the Saiyan arc but I dunno it just feels that its leaned into even more in the revival era.

[tonysoprano300]

Once Goku was revealed to be an alien, pretty much every aspect of his personality was retroactively established as being the result of his Saiyan heritage. Even his appetite is apparently because of his biology, and the only reason he isn’t evil is because he has brain damage.

Hell given the context of Minus and the Granolah arc, even Goku’s “soft hearted” nature is now a trait passed onto him from Bardock and Gine.

To be fair, he was still depicted as feral and aggressive when Grandpa Gohan first found him.

But yeah I'm not a fan of the more modern material putting a spin that everything about Goku from his love of fighting to his appetite to his pure heart comes from his lineage.

Might be a case where the retcon wasn’t well thought out, because the saiyan arc makes it super clear that Goku hitting his head was a major reason he wasn’t as barbaric as his saiyan brethren. But if his good nature isn’t a stroke of luck and is a genetic trait passed on from Bardock then what was the significance of the head injury thing?

[Skar]

Well, that explains why the Cell and Boo Sagas felt so disjointed to me.
Honestly, if Toriyama was feeling like that, maybe it would've been better to end the show after Freeza or Cell, I don't know why he kept going. And it pretty much sums up all of Super to me, "Did this really have to exist? Everything we're seeing here, we've already seen before and done better. Shouldn't DB just end already? Why are they still going?"

That's true but I guess applies to any returning series. As far as revivals go, Super was a midquel so doesn't affect the original series as much as a sequel changing the ending would. In the grand scheme of the overall series, Super takes place between chapters 517 and 518. There are certain ideas and retcons that I prefer didn't become official but I guess they wouldn't really matter as much once it ends since it'll likely revert back to the status quo of EoZ.

We kinda did get a sequel from Toriyama depending how much involvement he had with Online. I think it's consistent with what he says about EoZ since not much happens after it. The last threat the main cast faced before they passed away were the remnants of Freeza army then a timeskip of a few hundred years before another major threat. It also covers the next generation since Gohan writes a book about ki control and Goten and Trunks open a martial arts or swordsmen school. I recall Uub was never mentioned though so I guess he returns to his village after finishing his training with Goku since no threats emerged during his lifetime. I'm not sure if Super will reference anything from that timeline but Toyotaro did use Toriyama's Yardrat from Online so some of those events could happen.

[tonysoprano300]

The whole thing about Goku being a selfish prick was never really even hinted until the 23rd world martial arts tournament in a throw away line by Roshi. From the beginning of DB all the way until right before the end of the saiyan arc, Goku wasn’t depicted as a guy who would willingly exacerbate a situation in pursuit of a selfish endeavour. Letting Piccolo go for example was a choice made out of pragmatism given the effect his death would have on Kami and the Dragon Balls.

I felt the saiyan arc did an excellent job of showing how some of his saiyan genetics did affect him in some ways(like the excitement before a big battle) but they never leaned so hard into it to the point where it defined who Goku is. The difference between Goku and the saiyan ideal(Vegeta) always felt pretty clear beyond just “I'm good and you’re bad”. The influence of earth and his experiences were still there…..until the end where he lets Vegeta go. That was a turning point imo

I also don’t know why Toriyama has Goku act altruistically at various points in the series and has part of his training with Roshi be about the obligation of a martial artist to protect others and fight against evil. Maybe it was an editorial thing? Super Goku does come across as unlikeable at various points for me, so if thats what Toriyamas original intent was then I'm glad it was reflected in the works quite as much.

[LoganForkHands73]

I'm sure Goku probably thought the afterlife would be more exciting thanit ultimately was(although if we’re going by the anime continuity, then it was exciting)

I suppose the afterlife being more exciting in the anime ties into Toei's more upstanding characterisation for Goku. There, the idea that Goku returned because he genuinely missed his loved ones is believable. He had Paikuhan, Olivu and many other strong warriors to hang out with, but he still chose to be with his true family. Altered scenes like his first interaction with Goten, which is warm and loving in the anime but an awkward nothingburger moment in the manga, definitely aid that. In the manga, the only strong-ish dead warrior we come close to meeting (who doesn't appear on-page, only in the anime) is some chump in a chef's hat who can't even lift a few tonnes. You get a sense that Goku peaked in Otherworld and basically decided to go back to Earth on a whim.

The whole thing about Goku being a selfish prick was never really even hinted until the 23rd world martial arts tournament in a throw away line by Roshi. From the beginning of DB all the way until right before the end of the saiyan arc, Goku wasn’t depicted as a guy who would willingly exacerbate a situation in pursuit of a selfish endeavour. Letting Piccolo go for example was a choice made out of pragmatism given the effect his death would have on Kami and the Dragon Balls.

I felt the saiyan arc did an excellent job of showing how some of his saiyan genetics did affect him in some ways(like the excitement before a big battle) but they never leaned so hard into it to the point where it defined who Goku is. The difference between Goku and the saiyan ideal(Vegeta) always felt pretty clear beyond just “I'm good and you’re bad”. The influence of earth and his experiences were still there…..until the end where he lets Vegeta go. That was a turning point imo

I also don’t know why Toriyama has Goku act altruistically at various points in the series and has part of his training with Roshi be about the obligation of a martial artist to protect others and fight against evil. Maybe it was an editorial thing? Super Goku does come across as unlikeable at various points for me, so if thats what Toriyamas original intent was then I'm glad it was reflected in the works quite as much.

Eh, I think the trend of Goku exacerbating bad situations really kicks off at the 23rd Tournament and many of the most controversial climaxes since have been chasing that dragon, usually by making Goku deathgrip the idiot-ball at the worst possible moments. Which plot am I describing here: Goku boldly fights the enemy alone, refuses help from his friends, goes soft on the enemy and assumes his victory too soon, he gets shot in the back, the enemy takes the opportunity to stomp his bleeding wounds on the floor and brushes away his friends' attempts to help. Is the enemy in question Piccolo Jr or Golden Freeza?

Kami stepped in to help against Piccolo and the rest of the gang would have eagerly chipped in, but Goku was so dead-set on winning "fair and square" that he gives Piccolo a free hit and demands everyone stay out. This among many other tactical mistakes borne of arrogance nearly costs everyone dearly.

I think even at his lowest points, Goku is still capable of basic decency and altruism, but he's the kind of person to ignore the bigger picture and only react to injustices happening before his eyes. A mad scientist will create powerful cyborgs that will kill us all? Pssh, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it and we'll be strong enough to win! Said powerful cyborgs start massacring innocent civilians in front of him? You are so decked! Bringing it back to Resurrection 'F', Goku's blasé reaction to Freeza's return is telling. Goku knows Freeza is a bad person who has done many bad things in the past, but until he makes good on his threats, he's just another powerful rival to fight.

Toriyama has often said he feared Goku's strength becoming a burden on the storytelling. He gradually made Goku unbelievably powerful but he chose to emphasise his flaws and contrive many scenarios where he would be taken out of the action for long periods.

[tonysoprano300]

I'm sure Goku probably thought the afterlife would be more exciting thanit ultimately was(although if we’re going by the anime continuity, then it was exciting)

I suppose the afterlife being more exciting in the anime ties into Toei's more upstanding characterisation for Goku. There, the idea that Goku returned because he genuinely missed his loved ones is believable. He had Paikuhan, Olivu and many other strong warriors to hang out with, but he still chose to be with his true family. Altered scenes like his first interaction with Goten, which is warm and loving in the anime but an awkward nothingburger moment in the manga, definitely aid that. In the manga, the only strong-ish dead warrior we come close to meeting (who doesn't appear on-page, only in the anime) is some chump in a chef's hat who can't even lift a few tonnes. You get a sense that Goku peaked in Otherworld and basically decided to go back to Earth on a whim.

The whole thing about Goku being a selfish prick was never really even hinted until the 23rd world martial arts tournament in a throw away line by Roshi. From the beginning of DB all the way until right before the end of the saiyan arc, Goku wasn’t depicted as a guy who would willingly exacerbate a situation in pursuit of a selfish endeavour. Letting Piccolo go for example was a choice made out of pragmatism given the effect his death would have on Kami and the Dragon Balls.

I felt the saiyan arc did an excellent job of showing how some of his saiyan genetics did affect him in some ways(like the excitement before a big battle) but they never leaned so hard into it to the point where it defined who Goku is. The difference between Goku and the saiyan ideal(Vegeta) always felt pretty clear beyond just “I'm good and you’re bad”. The influence of earth and his experiences were still there…..until the end where he lets Vegeta go. That was a turning point imo

I also don’t know why Toriyama has Goku act altruistically at various points in the series and has part of his training with Roshi be about the obligation of a martial artist to protect others and fight against evil. Maybe it was an editorial thing? Super Goku does come across as unlikeable at various points for me, so if thats what Toriyamas original intent was then I'm glad it was reflected in the works quite as much.

Eh, I think the trend of Goku exacerbating bad situations really kicks off at the 23rd Tournament and many of the most controversial climaxes since have been chasing that dragon, usually by making Goku deathgrip the idiot-ball at the worst possible moments. Which plot am I describing here: Goku boldly fights the enemy alone, refuses help from his friends, goes soft on the enemy and assumes his victory too soon, he gets shot in the back, the enemy takes the opportunity to stomp his bleeding wounds on the floor and brushes away his friends' attempts to help. Is the enemy in question Piccolo Jr or Golden Freeza?

Kami stepped in to help against Piccolo and the rest of the gang would have eagerly chipped in, but Goku was so dead-set on winning "fair and square" that he gives Piccolo a free hit and demands everyone stay out. This among many other tactical mistakes borne of arrogance nearly costs everyone dearly.

I think even at his lowest points, Goku is still capable of basic decency and altruism, but he's the kind of person to ignore the bigger picture and only react to injustices happening before his eyes. A mad scientist will create powerful cyborgs that will kill us all? Pssh, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it and we'll be strong enough to win! Said powerful cyborgs start massacring innocent civilians in front of him? You are so decked! Bringing it back to Resurrection 'F', Goku's blasé reaction to Freeza's return is telling. Goku knows Freeza is a bad person who has done many bad things in the past, but until he makes good on his threats, he's just another powerful rival to fight.

Toriyama has often said he feared Goku's strength becoming a burden on the storytelling. He gradually made Goku unbelievably powerful but he chose to emphasise his flaws and contrive many scenarios where he would be taken out of the action for long periods.

True, although Goku went back to earth using the 1 day granted to him by Baba which i feel is still inline with his end of cell arc characterization. He also chooses to remain dead even after fighting Fat Buu and only really comes back when things get so bad that it necessitated his involvement. There was none of the “Wee! I get to fight a strong guy!” Stuff until maybe the fight with Kidd Buu arguably?


Valid points, Goku did seem to value his pride as a martial artist quite highly in that fight, it was also in part due to him wanting to keep inline with the rules of the tournament. As crazy as it was, I could imagine a lot of the cast behaving similarly in Gokus position. Tien certainly would at least.

I dislike the unwillingness to pursue Gero a lot more because it required the entirety of the cast to behave like battle crazed lunatics, like why would Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Gohan and even Piccolo be ok with that? Why is Vegeta allowed to make the calls? Whats funny is that the story tries to get you so invested in the stakes of everything after that point but its hard to take these characters acting so proactive very seriously when the situation was only happened because they refused to be proactive in the beginning. I'm not sure why they would even try to prevent Gero from getting back to his lab at all given how they refused to do anything years before.


Freeza was a bit an interesting story, so back in the cell arc we know that in Trunks’s timeline that Goku teleports to earth and kills freeza swiftly. Goku even expresses personal regret about not finishing the job on Namek. Then ROF happens where Freeza tortures Gohan to near death yet Goku allows him the opportunity to leave and come back for a rematch…then Freeza destroys earth all together. Then the Broly film happens where Freeza attacks the earth for the 3rd time and Goku again just lets him go.

So i need an explanation as to why Goku was mad at himself for not finishing Freeza on namek and seemingly killed Freeza without any hesitation when he came back in Z lol

[eledoremassis02]

I'm sure Goku probably thought the afterlife would be more exciting thanit ultimately was(although if we’re going by the anime continuity, then it was exciting)

I suppose the afterlife being more exciting in the anime ties into Toei's more upstanding characterisation for Goku. There, the idea that Goku returned because he genuinely missed his loved ones is believable. He had Paikuhan, Olivu and many other strong warriors to hang out with, but he still chose to be with his true family. Altered scenes like his first interaction with Goten, which is warm and loving in the anime but an awkward nothingburger moment in the manga, definitely aid that. In the manga, the only strong-ish dead warrior we come close to meeting (who doesn't appear on-page, only in the anime) is some chump in a chef's hat who can't even lift a few tonnes. You get a sense that Goku peaked in Otherworld and basically decided to go back to Earth on a whim.

The whole thing about Goku being a selfish prick was never really even hinted until the 23rd world martial arts tournament in a throw away line by Roshi. From the beginning of DB all the way until right before the end of the saiyan arc, Goku wasn’t depicted as a guy who would willingly exacerbate a situation in pursuit of a selfish endeavour. Letting Piccolo go for example was a choice made out of pragmatism given the effect his death would have on Kami and the Dragon Balls.

I felt the saiyan arc did an excellent job of showing how some of his saiyan genetics did affect him in some ways(like the excitement before a big battle) but they never leaned so hard into it to the point where it defined who Goku is. The difference between Goku and the saiyan ideal(Vegeta) always felt pretty clear beyond just “I'm good and you’re bad”. The influence of earth and his experiences were still there…..until the end where he lets Vegeta go. That was a turning point imo

I also don’t know why Toriyama has Goku act altruistically at various points in the series and has part of his training with Roshi be about the obligation of a martial artist to protect others and fight against evil. Maybe it was an editorial thing? Super Goku does come across as unlikeable at various points for me, so if thats what Toriyamas original intent was then I'm glad it was reflected in the works quite as much.

Eh, I think the trend of Goku exacerbating bad situations really kicks off at the 23rd Tournament and many of the most controversial climaxes since have been chasing that dragon, usually by making Goku deathgrip the idiot-ball at the worst possible moments. Which plot am I describing here: Goku boldly fights the enemy alone, refuses help from his friends, goes soft on the enemy and assumes his victory too soon, he gets shot in the back, the enemy takes the opportunity to stomp his bleeding wounds on the floor and brushes away his friends' attempts to help. Is the enemy in question Piccolo Jr or Golden Freeza?

Kami stepped in to help against Piccolo and the rest of the gang would have eagerly chipped in, but Goku was so dead-set on winning "fair and square" that he gives Piccolo a free hit and demands everyone stay out. This among many other tactical mistakes borne of arrogance nearly costs everyone dearly.

I think even at his lowest points, Goku is still capable of basic decency and altruism, but he's the kind of person to ignore the bigger picture and only react to injustices happening before his eyes. A mad scientist will create powerful cyborgs that will kill us all? Pssh, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it and we'll be strong enough to win! Said powerful cyborgs start massacring innocent civilians in front of him? You are so decked! Bringing it back to Resurrection 'F', Goku's blasé reaction to Freeza's return is telling. Goku knows Freeza is a bad person who has done many bad things in the past, but until he makes good on his threats, he's just another powerful rival to fight.

Toriyama has often said he feared Goku's strength becoming a burden on the storytelling. He gradually made Goku unbelievably powerful but he chose to emphasise his flaws and contrive many scenarios where he would be taken out of the action for long periods.

True, although Goku went back to earth using the 1 day granted to him by Baba which i feel is still inline with his end of cell arc characterization. He also chooses to remain dead even after fighting Fat Buu and only really comes back when things get so bad that it necessitated his involvement. There was none of the “Wee! I get to fight a strong guy!” Stuff until maybe the fight with Kidd Buu arguably?


Valid points, Goku did seem to value his pride as a martial artist quite highly in that fight, it was also in part due to him wanting to keep inline with the rules of the tournament. As crazy as it was, I could imagine a lot of the cast behaving similarly in Gokus position. Tien certainly would at least.

I dislike the unwillingness to pursue Gero a lot more because it required the entirety of the cast to behave like battle crazed lunatics, like why would Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Gohan and even Piccolo be ok with that? Why is Vegeta allowed to make the calls? Whats funny is that the story tries to get you so invested in the stakes of everything after that point but its hard to take these characters acting so proactive very seriously when the situation was only happened because they refused to be proactive in the beginning. I'm not sure why they would even try to prevent Gero from getting back to his lab at all given how they refused to do anything years before.


Freeza was a bit an interesting story, so back in the cell arc we know that in Trunks’s timeline that Goku teleports to earth and kills freeza swiftly. Goku even expresses personal regret about not finishing the job on Namek. Then ROF happens where Freeza tortures Gohan to near death yet Goku allows him the opportunity to leave and come back for a rematch…then Freeza destroys earth all together. Then the Broly film happens where Freeza attacks the earth for the 3rd time and Goku again just lets him go.

So i need an explanation as to why Goku was mad at himself for not finishing Freeza on namek and seemingly killed Freeza without any hesitation when he came back in Z lol

Was hoping this was addressed with Super's Manga, and maybe it will (if we ever get to that cliff hanger)

[Zephyr]

I'm surprised he knew going into the Boo arc he was going to end it and still tried to make Gohan the lead character. I just assumed the attempt to make Gohan the main character was to try to make the manga run a bit longer, while acknowledging Goku had been exhausted as a character.

I think the decision to make Gohan the lead came before the decision to have Boo be the final story arc, since Goku tagged Gohan in during the Cell arc's climax. On re-reads, that tagging in feels very clearly setup with Cell becoming Perfect and Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan in the same chapter literally a page apart from one another, like their showdown is being foreshadowed.

We know that it was around this time that Takeda took over for Kondo as Toriyama's editor, and we know that it was Kondo who insisted that Cell reach his Perfect form sooner than Toriyama otherwise would have had it. So I wonder if the pivot to Gohan was also something Kondo insisted on?

The quote says that "before the Boo story arc began" he decided Boo would be the end. July 14th 1992 is when Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan, and April 27th 1993 is when the Cell arc's final chapter released (the last chapter "before the Boo story arc began"). So there's about a 9 month gap there between the beginning of Gohan's pivot to the main character and the latest Toriyama could have decided Boo would be the last arc. By June 15th 1993 we get Goku calling from the afterlife to say he's coming back for a day.

This inclines me to believe that knowing he was going to end it was why he brought Goku back at all.

True, although Goku went back to earth using the 1 day granted to him by Baba which i feel is still inline with his end of cell arc characterization. He also chooses to remain dead even after fighting Fat Buu and only really comes back when things get so bad that it necessitated his involvement. There was none of the “Wee! I get to fight a strong guy!” Stuff until maybe the fight with Kidd Buu arguably?

It gets harder and harder for me to read the Super Saiyan 3 reveal and fight with fat Boo as anything but Goku trying to sneak in a quick bout before he has to leave. Why stall so Trunks can fly to Capsule Corp. when you can teleport? I've seen the reasoning that he couldn't sense Bulma's parents' ki, but I don't really buy that.

Goku did seem to value his pride as a martial artist quite highly in that fight, it was also in part due to him wanting to keep inline with the rules of the tournament. As crazy as it was, I could imagine a lot of the cast behaving similarly in Gokus position. Tien certainly would at least.

I dislike the unwillingness to pursue Gero a lot more because it required the entirety of the cast to behave like battle crazed lunatics, like why would Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Gohan and even Piccolo be ok with that? Why is Vegeta allowed to make the calls? Whats funny is that the story tries to get you so invested in the stakes of everything after that point but its hard to take these characters acting so proactive very seriously when the situation was only happened because they refused to be proactive in the beginning. I'm not sure why they would even try to prevent Gero from getting back to his lab at all given how they refused to do anything years before.

I mean, like you say, both Goku and Tenshinhan have pride as martial artists. That's one of the key things to always keep in mind with this story. I feel like describing them as "battle crazed lunatics" is not keeping that in mind. Future boy shows up and says they're all gonna get washed. For people with pride as martial artists, how could that not sound like a challenge? And now that they know in advance, they can prepare and train harder than they would have in peace time, so their treating it like a challenge also isn't dooming history to repeat itself. But they're also not "crazed" because they will (and do) go the pragmatic route when the 'game' is no longer viable. That this give and take is not made explicit text at some point by Toriyama I think is another instance of sloppiness on his part, but I do think the behavior ultimately gels together by virtue of reconciling three things: martial artist pride, ever-increasing strength being cultivated, and the fact that they* are not evil people (their opponents are).

Personally, I think that this is most emphasized in Goku makes him a really fun character as an adult (and I don't think the "Saiyan heritage" retcon was necessary in order to have it). I'm not sure if Goku belongs to some "TVTropes-able" archtype or anything, but his willingness to (at least temporarily) eschew more pragmatic goals for the sake of his martial artist's pride puts him in the same "archetype" as characters like Younger Toguro, Raoh, Thorkell, Nosferatu Zodd, Master Asia, and Akuma. I love these kinds of characters, and Goku, unlike these others, is the protagonist; that's awesome to me.

Back when I was still watching this on Toonami and took the story as seriously as it sometimes pretends to take itself, I might have found Goku's recklessness questionable and frustrating. But back then I hadn't really consumed much media about characters with a warrior code, honor, etc. I also hadn't realized that DB is ultimately rooted in gag sensibilities. In the present, knowing what I do about Dragon Ball's spiritual predecessors (namely Dr. Slump and Fist of the North Star), a comically and cosmically reckless martial artist who is also just a good dude makes all the sense in the world to me. I wouldn't expect Kenshirale to behave any other way, and over time I increasingly wonder why anyone else would.

*: Vegeta aside lol