Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 103 - Official Discussion Thread

[super michael]

Hm, yeah makes sense.



While it did seem to be a reaction of popular view of Goku, it also seems Toriyama likes to make his worse traits even worse over time.

All the way back in the original manga, we had Goku fighting opponents who casually outclassed him in Tao Pai Pai and old king Piccolo, and Goku was only stressed over how strong they were.

Compare this with Vegeta, who similarly outclassed him, but Goku was actually excited over it.

In the original manga we had situations where he got worse but then got better then worse again, which made him a bit messy, and then Super came along and overall just made him worse.

So yeah, Toriyama has been consistent about it, but still it makes Goku feel pretty flanderized...







Goku never really visited anyone unless they had something he needed or they called him up. All the way back in saiyan saga he didn't bother visiting Bulma or Roshi since the 23rd tournament to the point they didn't even know he had a kid. Dialogue from androids saga also suggests they didn't visit each at all too.

He decided to stay in Yardrat for an year to learn their techniques too.

I think this "Goku doesn't visit" is just part of his character, he's pretty okay with not seeing someone for years since he doesn't specifically miss them that much, but if they show up he won't be against it.



That sounds hilarious lol.

That's my problem with Super Goku, seems like Toriyama wanted to write him with the childhood personality he used to had, kinda dumb and innocent, but Goku grew up since the early arcs, he changed and became more mature over the time, even in OG Dragon Ball he seems more serious when there's serious stuff happening, now in Super he basically was the motive of the destruction of multiple universes and really didn't care about it.

Really?

How many times can you say that Goku gave the other universes a chance to survive in the tournament because Zeno was already planning to destroy those universes. I get the feeling that people are reading this story the way they want it to sound and not the way it really is.

Here is what happened in DBS:

- Goku saw Zeno powers first hand in Future Trunks time line.
- Goku wanted to go to Zeno place to ask for the tournament, but Whis and Beerus were against it, since Zeno can destroy the universe. They remind Goku of Zeno powers, which he saw first hand. (In the anime Beerus threatens Goku)
- Goku went to Zeno place, not caring about the consequences.

Goku didn't go with the intention to save anyone or anything. His intention was to start a tournament, even knowing what Zeno is capable of doing.

In the Anime Goku was acting like a villain towards the other universe.

[Alkiser]

That's my problem with Super Goku, seems like Toriyama wanted to write him with the childhood personality he used to had, kinda dumb and innocent, but Goku grew up since the early arcs, he changed and became more mature over the time, even in OG Dragon Ball he seems more serious when there's serious stuff happening, now in Super he basically was the motive of the destruction of multiple universes and really didn't care about it.

Really?

How many times can you say that Goku gave the other universes a chance to survive in the tournament because Zeno was already planning to destroy those universes. I get the feeling that people are reading this story the way they want it to sound and not the way it really is.

Here is what happened in DBS:

- Goku saw Zeno powers first hand in Future Trunks time line.
- Goku wanted to go to Zeno place to ask for the tournament, but Whis and Beerus were against it, since Zeno can destroy the universe. They remind Goku of Zeno powers, which he saw first hand. (In the anime Beerus threatens Goku)
- Goku went to Zeno place, not caring about the consequences.

Goku didn't go with the intention to save anyone or anything. His intention was to start a tournament, even knowing what Zeno is capable of doing.

In the Anime Goku was acting like a villain towards the other universe.

The consequences are that Goku's actions have given other universes a chance to survive instead of just being unceremoniously removed. Another selfish decision by Goku that led to something good.

[Vectur123]

Hm, yeah makes sense.



While it did seem to be a reaction of popular view of Goku, it also seems Toriyama likes to make his worse traits even worse over time.

All the way back in the original manga, we had Goku fighting opponents who casually outclassed him in Tao Pai Pai and old king Piccolo, and Goku was only stressed over how strong they were.

Compare this with Vegeta, who similarly outclassed him, but Goku was actually excited over it.

In the original manga we had situations where he got worse but then got better then worse again, which made him a bit messy, and then Super came along and overall just made him worse.

So yeah, Toriyama has been consistent about it, but still it makes Goku feel pretty flanderized...







Goku never really visited anyone unless they had something he needed or they called him up. All the way back in saiyan saga he didn't bother visiting Bulma or Roshi since the 23rd tournament to the point they didn't even know he had a kid. Dialogue from androids saga also suggests they didn't visit each at all too.

He decided to stay in Yardrat for an year to learn their techniques too.

I think this "Goku doesn't visit" is just part of his character, he's pretty okay with not seeing someone for years since he doesn't specifically miss them that much, but if they show up he won't be against it.



That sounds hilarious lol.

That's my problem with Super Goku, seems like Toriyama wanted to write him with the childhood personality he used to had, kinda dumb and innocent, but Goku grew up since the early arcs, he changed and became more mature over the time, even in OG Dragon Ball he seems more serious when there's serious stuff happening, now in Super he basically was the motive of the destruction of multiple universes and really didn't care about it.

Really?

How many times can you say that Goku gave the other universes a chance to survive in the tournament because Zeno was already planning to destroy those universes. I get the feeling that people are reading this story the way they want it to sound and not the way it really is.

But he didn't knew that initially, he went to Zeno place after Black Saga to remember him about the tournament he promised earlier, Zeno forgot and just remembered it because Goku spoke about it, even before being revealed that Zeno would destroy the other universes without any chance for them survive he already didn't took it seriously.

[Alkiser]

That's my problem with Super Goku, seems like Toriyama wanted to write him with the childhood personality he used to had, kinda dumb and innocent, but Goku grew up since the early arcs, he changed and became more mature over the time, even in OG Dragon Ball he seems more serious when there's serious stuff happening, now in Super he basically was the motive of the destruction of multiple universes and really didn't care about it.

Really?

How many times can you say that Goku gave the other universes a chance to survive in the tournament because Zeno was already planning to destroy those universes. I get the feeling that people are reading this story the way they want it to sound and not the way it really is.

But he didn't knew that initially, he went to Zeno place after Black Saga to remember him about the tournament he promised earlier, Zeno forgot and just remembered it because Goku spoke about it, even before being revealed that Zeno would destroy the other universes without any chance for them survive he already didn't took it seriously.

But in the manga, the Tournament of Power was started because the two Zeo were bored. But it's important to stress that having two bored Zeno isn't Goku's fault, because he's been invited by him to be his friend, or to find someone who matches up to him. Blaming Goku for an act that none of the readers would have imagined, not even the characters in the world, such as Daishinkan, who saw it as the right choice, is unfair, because usually this conclusion of guilt is made when you know the whole story and also know the actions. In the anime, Goku's request actually led to the creation of the Tournament at a time when there was no intention of destroying another universes. Goku's idea, to bring about a tournament previously promised by Zeno of the present, was what led to the creation of the rules of universal annihilation. Again, Zeno wanted to erase all universes from existence before Goku reminded him of the tournament, leading to the possibility that other universes might have a chance to survive. Plus we keep leaving out the aspect of the anime in which Zeno knew from the beginning that the winner would bring those universes back, and if it was the other way around he would destroy the winner's universe as well.

I have quoted here part of the kami thread Explorer itself

I refer you to his entire thread dedicated to Goku and his alleged guilt over the tournament

https://twitter.com/kamisamaexp/status/ ... 7oB6A&s=19

[kemuri07]

Just to add from myself Toyotaro's post on Threads regarding Toriyama and Goku, I'm not sure what he was referring to although I can guess.

"I wonder if Mr. Toriyama didn't like the trend of Goku being made into a saint...".


https://www.threads.net/@toyotaro_vjump ... xeqvSRxw-/

I mean if that's the case, then I'd call Goku in Super a form of character assassination.

My opinion has never really been the notion that Z's interpretation of Goku is nobler, but that I find Goku in both his appearances in DB and Z to be particularly compelling because Goku is a flawed but charismatic individual. I don't see that at all in Super because, well, Super is a bad anime. There's a reason why we keep having these arguments over and over again and it's because to a large amount of people, myself included, something feels wrong about Super's interpretation of Goku. And I don't think it's a simple as everyone be pearlclutching because "notmygoku" Again, the easy answer is: "Dragon Ball Super is a bad anime (with a barely tolerable manga adaptation).

[sangofe]

Toyotaro wrote "I learned about Toriyama's passing AFTER sending the manuscript." And the last page of dbs chapter 103 with Piccolo saying good bye were added by Toriyama himself days before his passing, probably right before the surgery... So heart breaking. Source: https://www.db-z.com/toyotaro-devoile-d ... -toriyama/

[Mr Baggins]

^ That's not the source. The source is Toyotaro's Twitter.

Anyhow, I don't think it's a coincidence that Toriyama had his own favorite character look at us through the panel and wave not long before his passing. He was saying goodbye to all of us.

All these revelations of his involvement have absolutely changed my perspective of this chapter. This was his way of tying up what he could. What a heartfelt, bittersweet (yet nonchalant) note to end it on.

Thank you for everything.

[sangofe]

^ That's not the source. The source is Toyotaro's Twitter.

Anyhow, I don't think it's a coincidence that Toriyama had his own favorite character look at us through the panel and wave not long before his passing. He was saying goodbye to all of us.

All these revelations of his involvement have absolutely changed my perspective of this chapter. This was his way of tying up what he could. What a heartfelt, bittersweet note to end it on.

Thank you for everything.

It's my source because I can't read japanese. But thanks for sharing the original twitter post, and I absolutely agree to your comments.

[Jack Bz]

Seems that the images posted are Toyo redrawing the actual draft/Toriyama's corrections because he doesn't have permission to post the originals.

I hope we get to see the actual Toriyama drawing. It could be the last drawing he ever did for Dragon Ball

[TKA]

Can't believe I forgot this quote exists:

"As much as Goku didn’t do many fatherly things, Piccolo was Gohan’s surrogate father.

Toriyama: Goku isn’t interested in child-rearing, probably. He’s completely unqualified to be a father. (laughs) He doesn’t even have a job. Goku wants nothing other than to get stronger, and it feels like he doesn’t have any other instincts. So he shows absolutely no interest in things he’s not interested in. I’d bet he wouldn’t have had any interest in marriage, either."

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... ma-nozawa/

Goku just has specific interests, and things outside of that don't get thought about that much. That includes family.

From the man himself. Not that you need him to tell you, since it's pretty obvious based on just the text of the series.

[tonysoprano300]

Just to add from myself Toyotaro's post on Threads regarding Toriyama and Goku, I'm not sure what he was referring to although I can guess.

"I wonder if Mr. Toriyama didn't like the trend of Goku being made into a saint...".


https://www.threads.net/@toyotaro_vjump ... xeqvSRxw-/

I mean if that's the case, then I'd call Goku in Super a form of character assassination.

My opinion has never really been the notion that Z's interpretation of Goku is nobler, but that I find Goku in both his appearances in DB and Z to be particularly compelling because Goku is a flawed but charismatic individual. I don't see that at all in Super because, well, Super is a bad anime. There's a reason why we keep having these arguments over and over again and it's because to a large amount of people, myself included, something feels wrong about Super's interpretation of Goku. And I don't think it's a simple as everyone be pearlclutching because "notmygoku" Again, the easy answer is: "Dragon Ball Super is a bad anime (with a barely tolerable manga adaptation).

If you view DBS as a series thats disconnected from prior DB stuff then Goku is fairly consistent, within that specific series itself it seems Toriyama was finally able to execute the version of Goku he always wanted to write. Which I guess makes sense because DBS is purely Toriyamas vision, I don’t think he has to answer to anyone whereas with the original DB he did.

If the “notmygoku” sentiment is based on the idea that Goku needs to be a righteous hero then yea it should be discarded because thats not who Goku is. I think the main point should be that Goku doesn’t operate on the extremes of the pendulum, he can sometimes make foolish decisions because of the childlike innocence and excitement he possesses or even due to his extremely simplistic view of ethics(which is also childlike) while also having relatable and humanizing elements. Thats why he worked as a protagonist. But then again I'm a bit biased because my favourite Goku story is the RR army arc which is all about Gokus sentimental side. It ends with him crying in his Grampas arms after only chasing after the 4 star ball so he can preserve his memory. Very nice heartfelt story that only really works if Goku is characterized as being a relatable human.

Ill also say that Marrying Chi Chi is a great example of Gokus ethics and innocence, it still didn’t feel like he knew what he was really getting into but he just casually agrees to it because “its bad to break your promises”. That was genuinely hilarious and simultaneously charming whereas some of the other gags don’t really have that dynamic. Especially the part where he’s seemingly annoyed with Chi Chi for leaning on his arm because he has no idea how couples even behave. That was laugh out loud funny.