The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[Koitsukai]

I dislike the unwillingness to pursue Gero a lot more because it required the entirety of the cast to behave like battle crazed lunatics, like why would Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Gohan and even Piccolo be ok with that? Why is Vegeta allowed to make the calls? Whats funny is that the story tries to get you so invested in the stakes of everything after that point but its hard to take these characters acting so proactive very seriously when the situation was only happened because they refused to be proactive in the beginning. I'm not sure why they would even try to prevent Gero from getting back to his lab at all given how they refused to do anything years before.


Freeza was a bit an interesting story, so back in the cell arc we know that in Trunks’s timeline that Goku teleports to earth and kills freeza swiftly. Goku even expresses personal regret about not finishing the job on Namek. Then ROF happens where Freeza tortures Gohan to near death yet Goku allows him the opportunity to leave and come back for a rematch…then Freeza destroys earth all together. Then the Broly film happens where Freeza attacks the earth for the 3rd time and Goku again just lets him go.

Re: Androids.
It never sounded that far-fetched to me that the gang blindly followed their saviour.
I guess they assumed Goku would take care of things, he seemed confident enough, plus Vegeta was there, so yeah, let's do some push ups and see if we can secure Goku's win.
I'd also argue that if I was told that, in my discipline, somebody caught me off guard and beat me, and now I have 3 years to prepare for that, then I'd be willing to face that challenge and prove my worth, to myself, that's a chance I'd definitely take. After the Kaio training they probably thought they could become stronger too (in the case of Tenshinhan, he greatly improved his signature attack), so they also have reasons to believe they could be up for the task of avenging their future selves.


After the androids prove their worth and talk about even stronger androids, while Goku is dying, then yeah, I can understand their arrogance being shattered and trying to prevent things from escalating any further... well everybody except Geets.

About Freeza, right now, aside of Toriyama having plans for Freeza, I don't have a good answer for why now Freeza gets the same upcommance as Roshi when he touches somebody's ass. Specially when half of Gogeta was Vegeta and he was complaining about letting Freeza walk early on that day.

[JulieYBM]

For the record, Takeda took over just as Perfect Cell appeared, so unless Kondou was pulling a Torishima by telling Toriyama what to do even after he had left Dragon Ball, then Gohan becoming the lead wouldn't have been his idea.

[Zephyr]

For the record, Takeda took over just as Perfect Cell appeared, so unless Kondou was pulling a Torishima by telling Toriyama what to do even after he had left Dragon Ball, then Gohan becoming the lead wouldn't have been his idea.

Unless this was something Kondo helped cook up before he left, the same way Cell becoming Perfect was. Which I'm speculating may have been the case, based on the thing Kondo pushed for (Perfect Cell) coinciding with the possible foreshadowing of Gohan taking over. It could just as easily have been something Toriyama decided to do independently, but the timing is interesting.

[AliTheZombie13]

I believe Toriyama did intend for Gohan to take over eventually, ever since his introduction he was implied to have a Battle Power above his own father when provoked enough. It always stroke me as one of the few things Toriyama did look ahead for.

[tonysoprano300]

I'm surprised he knew going into the Boo arc he was going to end it and still tried to make Gohan the lead character. I just assumed the attempt to make Gohan the main character was to try to make the manga run a bit longer, while acknowledging Goku had been exhausted as a character.

I think the decision to make Gohan the lead came before the decision to have Boo be the final story arc, since Goku tagged Gohan in during the Cell arc's climax. On re-reads, that tagging in feels very clearly setup with Cell becoming Perfect and Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan in the same chapter literally a page apart from one another, like their showdown is being foreshadowed.

We know that it was around this time that Takeda took over for Kondo as Toriyama's editor, and we know that it was Kondo who insisted that Cell reach his Perfect form sooner than Toriyama otherwise would have had it. So I wonder if the pivot to Gohan was also something Kondo insisted on?

The quote says that "before the Boo story arc began" he decided Boo would be the end. July 14th 1992 is when Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan, and April 27th 1993 is when the Cell arc's final chapter released (the last chapter "before the Boo story arc began"). So there's about a 9 month gap there between the beginning of Gohan's pivot to the main character and the latest Toriyama could have decided Boo would be the last arc. By June 15th 1993 we get Goku calling from the afterlife to say he's coming back for a day.

This inclines me to believe that knowing he was going to end it was why he brought Goku back at all.

True, although Goku went back to earth using the 1 day granted to him by Baba which i feel is still inline with his end of cell arc characterization. He also chooses to remain dead even after fighting Fat Buu and only really comes back when things get so bad that it necessitated his involvement. There was none of the “Wee! I get to fight a strong guy!” Stuff until maybe the fight with Kidd Buu arguably?

It gets harder and harder for me to read the Super Saiyan 3 reveal and fight with fat Boo as anything but Goku trying to sneak in a quick bout before he has to leave. Why stall so Trunks can fly to Capsule Corp. when you can teleport? I've seen the reasoning that he couldn't sense Bulma's parents' ki, but I don't really buy that.

Goku did seem to value his pride as a martial artist quite highly in that fight, it was also in part due to him wanting to keep inline with the rules of the tournament. As crazy as it was, I could imagine a lot of the cast behaving similarly in Gokus position. Tien certainly would at least.

I dislike the unwillingness to pursue Gero a lot more because it required the entirety of the cast to behave like battle crazed lunatics, like why would Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Gohan and even Piccolo be ok with that? Why is Vegeta allowed to make the calls? Whats funny is that the story tries to get you so invested in the stakes of everything after that point but its hard to take these characters acting so proactive very seriously when the situation was only happened because they refused to be proactive in the beginning. I'm not sure why they would even try to prevent Gero from getting back to his lab at all given how they refused to do anything years before.

I mean, like you say, both Goku and Tenshinhan have pride as martial artists. That's one of the key things to always keep in mind with this story. I feel like describing them as "battle crazed lunatics" is not keeping that in mind. Future boy shows up and says they're all gonna get washed. For people with pride as martial artists, how could that not sound like a challenge? And now that they know in advance, they can prepare and train harder than they would have in peace time, so their treating it like a challenge also isn't dooming history to repeat itself. But they're also not "crazed" because they will (and do) go the pragmatic route when the 'game' is no longer viable. That this give and take is not made explicit text at some point by Toriyama I think is another instance of sloppiness on his part, but I do think the behavior ultimately gels together by virtue of reconciling three things: martial artist pride, ever-increasing strength being cultivated, and the fact that they* are not evil people (their opponents are).

Personally, I think that this is most emphasized in Goku makes him a really fun character as an adult (and I don't think the "Saiyan heritage" retcon was necessary in order to have it). I'm not sure if Goku belongs to some "TVTropes-able" archtype or anything, but his willingness to (at least temporarily) eschew more pragmatic goals for the sake of his martial artist's pride puts him in the same "archetype" as characters like Younger Toguro, Raoh, Thorkell, Nosferatu Zodd, Master Asia, and Akuma. I love these kinds of characters, and Goku, unlike these others, is the protagonist; that's awesome to me.

Back when I was still watching this on Toonami and took the story as seriously as it sometimes pretends to take itself, I might have found Goku's recklessness questionable and frustrating. But back then I hadn't really consumed much media about characters with a warrior code, honor, etc. I also hadn't realized that DB is ultimately rooted in gag sensibilities. In the present, knowing what I do about Dragon Ball's spiritual predecessors (namely Dr. Slump and Fist of the North Star), a comically and cosmically reckless martial artist who is also just a good dude makes all the sense in the world to me. I wouldn't expect Kenshirale to behave any other way, and over time I increasingly wonder why anyone else would.

*: Vegeta aside lol

Oh i understand that they are martial artists, in fact one of the very first lessons relayed to them by kame sennin is about how the obligation of a martial artist is to stamp out injustice where they see it. Now I think you can make some argument for Goku having his pride as a fighter sometimes lead him to make risky decisions, the battle with piccolo highlights that somewhat. I just have a hard time believing his end of saiyan arc characterization where he’s willing to risk the entire earth(which already suffered extreme casualties) just because he’s excited for a rematch. I think stuff like that makes Goku come across like a caricature and id argue the best version of Goku is one who isn’t exactly so extreme. Keep in mind, this the same Goku who was absolutely not excited after learning that there are 2 other Saiyan warriors that were superior to Radditz. It terrified him to learn that.

Tien on the other hand quite literally just came back to life after being killed by saiyans, he saw the overwhelming power of Freeza and he saw Trunks(who was a SSJ) kill Freeza easily only to learn later on that the androids he speaks of are far superior to the strength of even a SSJ. Tien in the past was proactive particularly in the battle vs King Piccolo, but now he has qualms about trying to deal with a threat that will turn the world into skynet?

I don’t necessarily think they needed to kill Gero, but to not even keep tabs or try to monitor the situation with any seriousness does undercut the whole “we need to stop Gero from activating the androids” plot later on. At this point, they dispatched 19&20 so easily that there is no reason for them to not be over confident but they act more righteously here than they ever did before.

Plus I still have a hard time believing that Gohan, Yamcha or Krillin would stand idly by. Half of these guys only just recently came back to life lol

Of course DB is a gag series but the Cell arc is never played in such a way where you’re not supposed to take things seriously, its arguably the most serious DB has ever been and you’re meant to be extremely invested in the stakes of everything. The characters are extremely proactive in almost everything that happens after the 3-year time skip. They try to stop Gero from getting to his Lab, they build remotes capable of killing the androids, they’re obsessed with stopping Cell from reaching his perfect form, they’re angry with Vegeta for allowing Cell to absorb 18, They find the basement of Geros lab and grab important schematics while making sure to kill current timeline Cell before he can grow up,Goku calls out Gohan for not taking the fight with Cell seriously enough etc.

Hell even in the Buu saga which had a lot more gags and levity compared to Cell, the characters are proactive when it comes to stopping Buu’s awakening. Its only Vegeta throwing a temper tantrum which stops them from ultimately succeeding.
I can respect that they at least maintained consistency with Vegeta, who is characterized consistently from beginning to end.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

When is Daima suppose to take place exactly? Are the rumors true that it will be after Buu but before the start of Super?

[JulieYBM]

When is Daima suppose to take place exactly? Are the rumors true that it will be after Buu but before the start of Super?

Nobody knows, call back in October.

[Alkiser]

Dragon Ball has no canon and never did. It's more of a western concept.

Just enjoy what you enjoy regardless of what anyone thinks.

Pretty much this i never understood why kids these days are screaming canon canon canon like who gives a shit? just have fun.

If everyone approached this topic on the basis of , "have fun" then this thread wouldn't have a damn 10 pages.

[Grimlock]

Which is something one should question, why would someone not approach this on the basis of "have fun" when this is all that there is to it?

[dragonballhero]

When is Daima suppose to take place exactly? Are the rumors true that it will be after Buu but before the start of Super?

Ngl, I've been having this strong feeling that Daima might take place in an alternate universe where Super and its content never occurred. That includes stuff like Beerus and Whis, by the way.

[TobyS]

What people still don't get is Goku and his pals are not super heroes, they aren't pragmatists.

They stamp out evil when they stumble across it but don't go looking (see freeza being alive).

They are a bunch of karate psychopaths.

Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta and Tenshinhan want to fight the androids they say as much. They have some weird Bushido code and probably what we'd call some mental illness/obsession in real life.

Kuririn and Yamcha agree but would probably let their fear and caring about humanity allow them to look for Gero but not at the expense of defying the others.

[Alkiser]

Which is something one should question, why would someone not approach this on the basis of "have fun" when this is all that there is to it?

Because mostly this discussion was based on complaining about Toriyame, complaining about TOP, complaining about Toriyama's way of writing, complaining about Goku, complaining about DBS, complaining that DB died 1995.

This thread is one big complaint, complaining can't be fun because it's constantly pointing out the same things you don't like.

[SupremeKai25]

Which is something one should question, why would someone not approach this on the basis of "have fun" when this is all that there is to it?

Because mostly this discussion was based on complaining about Toriyame, complaining about TOP, complaining about Toriyama's way of writing, complaining about Goku, complaining about DBS, complaining that DB died 1995.

This thread is one big complaint, complaining can't be fun because it's constantly pointing out the same things you don't like.

Why are you surprised? This is a tale as old as BoG.

A noticeable subset of DBZ fans are gate-keepers. They grew up watching DBZ and refuse to accept anything that takes place after 1995. Or 1997, if they grew up with DBZ AND DBGT.

An example: Search "Trunks kills Cell in the Future" on Youtube. Look how many comments are disgruntled and nostalgic fans saying nonsense like "I refuse to accept that DBS Trunks is the same as DBZ Trunks" or "I refuse to accept all the nonsense with Black/Zamasu, this is where Trunks' story ends."

Another example is Broly. Plenty of disgruntled and nostalgic fans refuse to accept the New Broly. They will say nonsense like "DBZ Broly will always be the true/only Broly to me."

They wallow in their nostalgia and childhood. They literally cannot accept the existence of Super, because it does not fit their parameters of what """True""" Dragon Ball is (aka Did I grow up with it in the 1980s/1990s? Do I feel nostalgia for it?).

Gate-keeping, Gate-keeping everywhere within the Dragon Ball fandom. According to some people, it's not """""tRuE"""" Dragon Ball unless they grew up with it/they have childhood nostalgia about it.

It's impossible to have a discussion about Dragon Ball Super or any aspect of it without at least one nostalgic/disgruntled old fan randomly saying "True!!! Dragon Ball ended in 1995, this is not Dragon Ball".

I only see the gate-keeping worsening now.

[Alkiser]

Which is something one should question, why would someone not approach this on the basis of "have fun" when this is all that there is to it?

Because mostly this discussion was based on complaining about Toriyame, complaining about TOP, complaining about Toriyama's way of writing, complaining about Goku, complaining about DBS, complaining that DB died 1995.

This thread is one big complaint, complaining can't be fun because it's constantly pointing out the same things you don't like.

Why are you surprised? This is a tale as old as BoG.

A noticeable subset of DBZ fans are gate-keepers. They grew up watching DBZ and refuse to accept anything that takes place after 1995. Or 1997, if they grew up with DBZ AND DBGT.

An example: Search "Trunks kills Cell in the Future" on Youtube. Look how many comments are disgruntled and nostalgic fans saying nonsense like "I refuse to accept that DBS Trunks is the same as DBZ Trunks" or "I refuse to accept all the nonsense with Black/Zamasu, this is where Trunks' story ends."

Another example is Broly. Plenty of disgruntled and nostalgic fans refuse to accept the New Broly. They will say nonsense like "DBZ Broly will always be the true/only Broly to me."

They wallow in their nostalgia and childhood. They literally cannot accept the existence of Super, because it does not fit their parameters of what """True""" Dragon Ball is (aka Did I grow up with it in the 1980s/1990s? Do I feel nostalgia for it?).

Gate-keeping, Gate-keeping everywhere within the Dragon Ball fandom. According to some people, it's not """""tRuE"""" Dragon Ball unless they grew up with it/they have childhood nostalgia about it.

It's impossible to have a discussion about Dragon Ball Super or any aspect of it without at least one nostalgic/disgruntled old fan randomly saying "True!!! Dragon Ball ended in 1995, this is not Dragon Ball".

I only see the gate-keeping worsening now.

The sad thing is that in the 3 years I've been here I've seen more complaints about the work of Toriyama, Toei, Toyotaro whether it's the original DB run 84/95, GT or Super.

I don't think I've ever seen honest posts and comments here from people writing that they love Dragon Ball, or people writing posts about why Dragon Ball is cool and worth watching. Especially now after Toriyama's death when people have already started writing in this topic that they're already going to give a shit about Dragon Ball because Toriyama won't be working on it anymore.

If I were a new fan and out of curiosity I went into this forum and read 1/3 of this discussion I would think Dragon Ball sucks.

[Jord]

Another example is Broly. Plenty of disgruntled and nostalgic fans refuse to accept the New Broly. They will say nonsense like "DBZ Broly will always be the true/only Broly to me."

The new Broly is a completely different character from the original Broly. It's perfectly fine to choose one over the other, because of elements you like about either. This doesn't necessarily have to be nostalgia or disgruntledness. There are enough blind Super defenders as well, but in the case of Broly, it's just a matter of preference.

[Saiya6Cit]

As usual, I am arriving late to the discussion. Now that I did read previous comments. I agree and disagree with points presented.

For now I will only add my two cents:

The only reason why I was supporting Dragon Ball daima was because Toriyama was going to be involved , if that is not the case amymore, I am gone.

I left starwars with the new trilogy and the disney era. I could do the proper now. Either way after 4 years in the fandom I have gained few followers and considerable haters.

[SupremeKai25]

Another example is Broly. Plenty of disgruntled and nostalgic fans refuse to accept the New Broly. They will say nonsense like "DBZ Broly will always be the true/only Broly to me."

The new Broly is a completely different character from the original Broly. It's perfectly fine to choose one over the other, because of elements you like about either. This doesn't necessarily have to be nostalgia or disgruntledness. There are enough blind Super defenders as well, but in the case of Broly, it's just a matter of preference.

So if the Old Broly is so good, wouldn't this mean that the franchise is in good hands (Toei's)?

I mean, the beloved and popular DBZ Broly was 100% a Toei creation.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Another example is Broly. Plenty of disgruntled and nostalgic fans refuse to accept the New Broly. They will say nonsense like "DBZ Broly will always be the true/only Broly to me."

The new Broly is a completely different character from the original Broly. It's perfectly fine to choose one over the other, because of elements you like about either. This doesn't necessarily have to be nostalgia or disgruntledness. There are enough blind Super defenders as well, but in the case of Broly, it's just a matter of preference.

So if the Old Broly is so good, wouldn't this mean that the franchise is in good hands (Toei's)?

I mean, the beloved and popular DBZ Broly was 100% a Toei creation.

The character design was Toriyama's, which was the only thing carring Broly's popularity, because Takao Koyama storytelling surely did not.

[tonysoprano300]

DBS Broly is extremely well liked by the DB fanbase no?

[SupremeKai25]

The new Broly is a completely different character from the original Broly. It's perfectly fine to choose one over the other, because of elements you like about either. This doesn't necessarily have to be nostalgia or disgruntledness. There are enough blind Super defenders as well, but in the case of Broly, it's just a matter of preference.

So if the Old Broly is so good, wouldn't this mean that the franchise is in good hands (Toei's)?

I mean, the beloved and popular DBZ Broly was 100% a Toei creation.

The character design was Toriyama's, which was the only thing carring Broly's popularity, because Takao Koyama storytelling surely did not.

Actually, what carried Broly was his personality (his edgy/cool one-liners) and his fighting style as a crazy brawler who completely dominated the opposition.

Did anyone ever complain that DBZ Broly """"did not feel like tRuE Dragon Ball"""" ?