Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

I just can't see current SS3 Gotenks being anywhere near SSB tier when he couldn't even beat base Copy Vegeta a few years before.

Even SSG tier feels like it's being way too generous.

While in-universe it wouldn't really make sense, we have to come to terms with the fact that a vague general SSB tier is now required in order to be a relevant fighter.

Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Broly all surpass it.
17, Boo are on it. Gohan was here too before Beast.

If Gotenks gets any legitimate screentime past this arc, I can't see him being below Blue tier.

[QuakingStar]

Not that this needs explaining, but "gas left in the tank" is so vague it can mean anywhere from 20% to 90% stamina remaining. Goku asked a general question that was answered in the affirmative, and there's not a single thing implying that Gohan was particularly exhausted. It was a pretty even fight all around.

I do think he's the top Saiyan right now, but obviously not by much. I don't see him outright stomping any fighter on that planet outside of Goten and Trunks.

A more interesting question is how close they've gotten to Black Freeza's level, given that Goku and Vegeta have evidently improved since the previous arc.

It's hard to say, but after learning his lesson MULTIPLE times, I think by now Frieza would have learned to keep training even after he one-shotted Goku and Vegeta two years ago. I still think Frieza is much ahead of them. 10 years of training in a HTC is an insane advantage and then 2 more years of training after that?? Yeah I think only Beerus is beating him right now.

[SupremeKai25]

Not that this needs explaining, but "gas left in the tank" is so vague it can mean anywhere from 20% to 90% stamina remaining. Goku asked a general question that was answered in the affirmative, and there's not a single thing implying that Gohan was particularly exhausted. It was a pretty even fight all around.

I do think he's the top Saiyan right now, but obviously not by much. I don't see him outright stomping any fighter on that planet outside of Goten and Trunks.

A more interesting question is how close they've gotten to Black Freeza's level, given that Goku and Vegeta have evidently improved since the previous arc.

It's hard to say, but after learning his lesson MULTIPLE times, I think by now Frieza would have learned to keep training even after he one-shotted Goku and Vegeta two years ago. I still think Frieza is much ahead of them. 10 years of training in a HTC is an insane advantage and then 2 more years of training after that?? Yeah I think only Beerus is beating him right now.

It's actually hilarious how Black Frieza hasn't done anything for the past 2 years.

I genuinely hope that Black Frieza returns only to get the Mecha Frieza/Future Trunks treatment by a new villain, just to see the fandom's meltdown.

Realistically, Goku remains above Frieza in terms of potential. Frieza needed 10 years to surpass a level that Goku achieved in a fraction of that time... I'd say it's obvious who has more potential between Goku and Frieza.

Give Goku 10 years of training and he will naturally surpass Black Frieza.

[Koitsukai]

That's an odd take, it took Goku decades to reach SSB, Freeza only needed 4 months. Goku even with like a 30 year advantage over Freeza is still behind.
If Freeza's 10 year workout started at the same time Goku’s did, he would've been Black Freeza by the time Raditz arrived, and 20 years later who knows where he’d be.

The challenge should be: Give Freeza 35 years to train and let's see if he can put Beast Gohan down. It seems he'd have 25 years to spare.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku has been training his whole life and he's still weaker than Freeza. Both times they fought Goku only won because of a miracle (A legendary transformation nobody had seen in 1,000 years and then Freeza's own hubris).

Hot take, but I actually think Goku isn't gifted and has average potential for a Saiyan. He's the way he is today because he worked harder than everyone else. Isn't that the main theme of the series?

[SupremeKai25]

Goku has been training his whole life and he's still weaker than Freeza. Both times they fought Goku only won because of a miracle (A legendary transformation nobody had seen in 1,000 years and then Freeza's own hubris).

Hot take, but I actually think Goku isn't gifted and has average potential for a Saiyan. He's the way he is today because he worked harder than everyone else. Isn't that the main theme of the series?

Uhm, No. Goku has more potential than every other mortal fighter. Not only he mastered in 48 minutes a technique that still eludes the Destroyers after millennia, he is also he prophesized rival of the Destroyer God.

Goku is the MC, after all. The writer isn't trying to lie to you, remember? Since Goku is the MC, then he is obviously going to end up at the top.

[ZombieVito]

Goku has been training his whole life and he's still weaker than Freeza. Both times they fought Goku only won because of a miracle (A legendary transformation nobody had seen in 1,000 years and then Freeza's own hubris).

Hot take, but I actually think Goku isn't gifted and has average potential for a Saiyan. He's the way he is today because he worked harder than everyone else. Isn't that the main theme of the series?

Uhm, No. Goku has more potential than every other mortal fighter. Not only he mastered in 48 minutes a technique that still eludes the Destroyers after millennia, he is also he prophesized rival of the Destroyer God.

Goku is the MC, after all. The writer isn't trying to lie to you, remember? Since Goku is the MC, then he is obviously going to end up at the top.

Toriyama disagreed.

[Yuji]

Goku has been training his whole life and he's still weaker than Freeza. Both times they fought Goku only won because of a miracle (A legendary transformation nobody had seen in 1,000 years and then Freeza's own hubris).

Hot take, but I actually think Goku isn't gifted and has average potential for a Saiyan. He's the way he is today because he worked harder than everyone else. Isn't that the main theme of the series?

That's not a hot take, the series explicitly says so during the Saiyan arc and the only time it's really contested is in the Boo arc when Vegeta is coping. Even so, we see in Super Vegeta can easily catch up and surpass Goku with the same training methods and teachers and arguably outdo him as he never needed the ritual to achieve divine Ki.

The half-Saiyans are of course more naturally gifted, Broly is of course Broly, the U6 Saiyans also despite never achieving Super Saiyan forms all had incredible base power that rivaled Goku and Vegeta after Whis training even though they're all relatively young.

Even looking back at the old Saiyans, Goku's battle power as an adult even after a potential unlock and making use of multiple mystical/Godly training methods peaked at 416 (~900 with the Kamehameha). That's an average Saiyan out there just living his life and fighting aliens. To surpass Saiyan limits Goku afterward had to make use of unnatural training methods such as being dead and gravity training.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku has been training his whole life and he's still weaker than Freeza. Both times they fought Goku only won because of a miracle (A legendary transformation nobody had seen in 1,000 years and then Freeza's own hubris).

Hot take, but I actually think Goku isn't gifted and has average potential for a Saiyan. He's the way he is today because he worked harder than everyone else. Isn't that the main theme of the series?

Uhm, No. Goku has more potential than every other mortal fighter. Not only he mastered in 48 minutes a technique that still eludes the Destroyers after millennia, he is also he prophesized rival of the Destroyer God.

Goku is the MC, after all. The writer isn't trying to lie to you, remember? Since Goku is the MC, then he is obviously going to end up at the top.

Toriyama disagreed.

OG Dragon Ball: Goku is the hero and the strongest.

Saiyan and Namek saga: Goku is the hero and the strongest.

Buu saga: Goku is the hero and the strongest.

BoG/RoF/U6/FT/TOP/Moro: Goku is the hero and the srongest.

End of Z: Goku is the hero and the strongest.

Oh, and by the way, Toriyama never intended to make Gohan that strong. Super Hero was originally going to be a Piccolo-centric movie. Gohan wasn't even a blip in Toriyama's radar if it wasn't for Toei's meddling.

The pedigree is clear and it shows us that Goku always ends up at the top. The main protagonist will always end up the strongest over the secondary characters.

Goku has been training his whole life and he's still weaker than Freeza. Both times they fought Goku only won because of a miracle (A legendary transformation nobody had seen in 1,000 years and then Freeza's own hubris).

Hot take, but I actually think Goku isn't gifted and has average potential for a Saiyan. He's the way he is today because he worked harder than everyone else. Isn't that the main theme of the series?

That's not a hot take, the series explicitly says so during the Saiyan arc and the only time it's really contested is in the Boo arc when Vegeta is coping. Even so, we see in Super Vegeta can easily catch up and surpass Goku with the same training methods and teachers and arguably outdo him as he never needed the ritual to achieve divine Ki.

The half-Saiyans are of course more naturally gifted, Broly is of course Broly, the U6 Saiyans also despite never achieving Super Saiyan forms all had incredible base power that rivaled Goku and Vegeta after Whis training even though they're all relatively young.

Even looking back at the old Saiyans, Goku's battle power as an adult even after a potential unlock and making use of multiple mystical/Godly training methods peaked at 416 (~900 with the Kamehameha). That's an average Saiyan out there just living his life and fighting aliens. To surpass Saiyan limits Goku afterward had to make use of unnatural training methods such as being dead and gravity training.

And yet, in the Tournament of Power, Vegeta sacrifices himself for Goku, recognizing Goku as the only one who can defeat Jiren and "trenspass into the domain of the Gods".

[Hugo Boss]

It's fascinating how this perspective strays from the essence of the original manga. In many Western storytelling traditions, there's this notion that only those born with special gifts can rise to the top, as if fate has already set their path. However, Goku, as envisioned by Toriyama, challenges that idea head-on with his declaration, "I'm an Earthling." He rejects the notion that his Saiyan heritage defines him, emphasizing that his upbringing and experiences on Earth shape who he is far more than any inherited traits. Toriyama's narrative firmly establishes the importance of nurture over nature, highlighting the impact of Goku's environment and relationships on his character development.

[Koitsukai]

We've reached the point where we need to explicitly explain to people that being the MC and ending up as the strongest in no way means there cannot be somebody else with far greater potential, even though the show goes out of its way to say "you've trained 40 years, I've trained 4 months, and I'm still stronger than you"...

[SupremeKai25]

We've reached the point where we need to explicitly explain to people that being the MC and ending up as the strongest in no way means there cannot be somebody else with far greater potential, even though the show goes out of its way to say "you've trained 40 years, I've trained 4 months, and I'm still stronger than you"...

Huh, last I checked, Goku killed Frieza in RoF.

Also, Goku's God training only lasted a couple of years. Anything before that, that's not God training, so it is irrelevant.

[Koitsukai]

We've reached the point where we need to explicitly explain to people that being the MC and ending up as the strongest in no way means there cannot be somebody else with far greater potential, even though the show goes out of its way to say "you've trained 40 years, I've trained 4 months, and I'm still stronger than you"...

Huh, last I checked, Goku killed Frieza in RoF.

Also, Goku's God training only lasted a couple of years. Anything before that, that's not God training, so it is irrelevant.

Who said Goku didn't ughgh... sigh... you just don't get it nor even recall RoF's final act.
Toriyama was clear enough, Freeza in 4 months surpassed Goku's lifetime and godly achievements, get over it. Give Freeza the same half-century training with several gods Goku got and he'd have to fuse with Beerus to beat him.

Sorbet shot down Goku, I guess that means he has more potential than Goku

[Jack Bz]

As it stands, Freeza trained 10 years and 4 months in his whole lifetime, + some image training between RoF and the ToP. Last we saw he was monstrously stronger than Goku and Vegeta together, and has never had any sort of teacher.

Like to be clear... in the time since Freeza died in RoF, Goku and Vegeta trained for 3 years together in the rosat, trained again to beat Zamasu (and in the manga both perfected super saiyan blue) and Freeza caught up to them WHILE DEAD from image training alone.

He is potential incarnate.

[SupremeKai25]

Give Freeza the same half-century training with several gods Goku got and he'd have to fuse with Beerus to beat him.

Actually, No, because there is no evidence that Frieza has limitless potential, meanwhile it is indeed stated multiple times that the Saiyans have infinite potential.

It is more likely that Frieza has hit his ceiling in terms of potential.

As it stands, Freeza trained 10 years and 4 months in his whole lifetime, + some image training between RoF and the ToP. Last we saw he was monstrously stronger than Goku and Vegeta together, and has never had any sort of teacher.

Like to be clear... in the time since Freeza died in RoF, Goku and Vegeta trained for 3 years together in the rosat, trained again to beat Zamasu (and in the manga both perfected super saiyan blue) and Freeza caught up to them WHILE DEAD from image training alone.

He is potential incarnate.

The fact that he needed 10 years the second time instead of just 4 months proves that he is reaching his ceiling and his growth rate is slowing down massively.

Furthermore, unlike Frieza, Goku gets power boosts mid-fight thanks to his Saiyan cells.

There is a HUGE difference between "growth rate" and "potential". Frieza has an impressive growth rate (SSB tier in 4 months), but even that is slowing down significantly (4 months vs. 10 years), and he does not have infinite potential to grow stronger. There is no evidence that Frieza can continue to grow stronger down the line, unlike Goku.

[Thani]

Give Freeza the same half-century training with several gods Goku got and he'd have to fuse with Beerus to beat him.

Actually, No, because there is no evidence that Frieza has limitless potential, meanwhile it is indeed stated multiple times that the Saiyans have infinite potential.

Where was that stated again? Vegeta does like to claim saiyans have no limits, but that's, like... just how he talks about saiyans in general.

[SupremeKai25]

Give Freeza the same half-century training with several gods Goku got and he'd have to fuse with Beerus to beat him.

Actually, No, because there is no evidence that Frieza has limitless potential, meanwhile it is indeed stated multiple times that the Saiyans have infinite potential.

Where was that stated again? Vegeta does like to claim saiyans have no limits, but that's, like... just how he talks about saiyans in general.

How come when Goku claims that Broly is stronger than Beerus we have to accept it because "the writers wouldn't trick the audience like that", but we can't accept the literal Prince of the Saiyans' claim that Saiyans have infinite potential?

[Koitsukai]

I can't believe this salad of concepts you've prepared for dinner... mixing bold statements with typical in-character speech + a handful of headcanon for spice... I'm literally looking at the camera Jim Halpert-style right now.
I truly hope, for your own understanding of how fiction works, you are just trolling us.

[Yuji]

And yet, in the Tournament of Power, Vegeta sacrifices himself for Goku, recognizing Goku as the only one who can defeat Jiren and "trenspass into the domain of the Gods".

Yes, because Goku's upbringing and training leads him to be better attuned to achieve and master UI, Vegeta and other characters explicitly state that UI would be against his nature. If UE were a thing by that point, it'd be just as easily within ToP Vegeta's grasp and would no doubt help him pull ahead of Jiren just as UI did for Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

And yet, in the Tournament of Power, Vegeta sacrifices himself for Goku, recognizing Goku as the only one who can defeat Jiren and "trenspass into the domain of the Gods".

Yes, because Goku's upbringing and training leads him to be better attuned to achieve and master UI, Vegeta and other characters explicitly state that UI would be against his nature. If UE were a thing by that point, it'd be just as easily within ToP Vegeta's grasp and would no doubt help him pull ahead of Jiren just as UI did for Goku.

Again, I find it impossible to believe that the writers intended for a sidekick like Vegeta to have greater strength and potential than the main star (Goku).

That is why Goku in End of Z is portrayed as obviously superior to everyone else, except for Uub.