Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

Yeah.... the fact you are ignoring that even Vegeta said Gohan had more potential than Goku and himself is wild. The fact you are ignoring that WHIS said Gohan was unique and special is wild. The whole limitless thing is just Vegeta being prideful, otherwise potential means nothing which contradicts Toriyama himself who had repeatedly used Potential as a plot device in his stories and as literally part of Gohans character. Gohan, Broly, Frieza, and Jiren have more potential than Goku and Vegeta. Whis describes Jiren's potential as immeasurable. Yet later, he still says Gohan is unique/special. Goku and Vegeta do not have unlimited potential, and Saiyans in general do not have unlimited potential.

[Kenneth La Torre]

What do you guys make of Broly vs Goten and Trunks?
Everything happened off-screen but that one panel has SS Broly not that confortable against the base teenagers.

Their teamwork can't be that good, SS Gohan was not having that much trouble against the SS heroes, so does that mean SS Broly's power diminished that much? from Beast level to SS level? thing is he didn't take that much of a beating in the first place, so is it a stamina issue?

Jiren had trouble with roshi, even tho we know he actually didnt have any trouble with roshi. Meaning i have no idea what to interpret either.

Broly probably powered down to fight them on even grounds.

I doubt hed get from beast gohan level all the way to regular ssj levels of power.

Unless he has SSBs power leakage problem but on cosmic steroids.

You know what? I wouldnt mind that if thats how theyll keep brolys power in check.

[Miracles]

"From Beast level to SSJ level." Lol Broly was never on Beast Gohan's level. Broly didn't face Gohan at full power but with "some gas left in the tank."

Considering that the process of Gohan using the maximum amount of power that he can use before going Berserk with Beast seems to have zapped his stamina, he surely was nowhere near full power when he fought SS Broly despite the fact he had the advantage. He was even lower when he fought PSSB(or SSBE) Vegeta. That much was obvious to most of us here.

Yep. Considering Gohan was getting all the praise from Whis and Beerus and Broly was not. They see Broly as just another chump. Broly and Gogeta didn't get any praise then and they aren't getting any kudos now from Beerus and Whis. Despite Broly being stronger now.

[SupremeKai25]

"From Beast level to SSJ level." Lol Broly was never on Beast Gohan's level. Broly didn't face Gohan at full power but with "some gas left in the tank."

Considering that the process of Gohan using the maximum amount of power that he can use before going Berserk with Beast seems to have zapped his stamina, he surely was nowhere near full power when he fought SS Broly despite the fact he had the advantage. He was even lower when he fought PSSB(or SSBE) Vegeta. That much was obvious to most of us here.

Yep. Considering Gohan was getting all the praise from Whis and Beerus and Broly was not. They see Broly as just another chump. Broly and Gogeta didn't get any praise then and they aren't getting any kudos now from Beerus and Whis. Despite Broly being stronger now.

I still find it hilarious that Beerus was sleeping and relaxing while Broly and Gogeta were going all out. We do know from his reaction to Infinite Zamasu that Beerus isn't sleeping and relaxing if he thinks something big is going on... so he just couldn't care in the slightest about Broly and Gogeta.

But even though Beerus praised Gohan once, you shouldn't forget that this whole Revival started because Goku is the prophesized one who will rival Beerus. Goku, not Gohan, is the Super Saiyan "God" who will challenge Beerus, as laid out back in 2013.

[Miracles]

Considering that the process of Gohan using the maximum amount of power that he can use before going Berserk with Beast seems to have zapped his stamina, he surely was nowhere near full power when he fought SS Broly despite the fact he had the advantage. He was even lower when he fought PSSB(or SSBE) Vegeta. That much was obvious to most of us here.

Yep. Considering Gohan was getting all the praise from Whis and Beerus and Broly was not. They see Broly as just another chump. Broly and Gogeta didn't get any praise then and they aren't getting any kudos now from Beerus and Whis. Despite Broly being stronger now.

I still find it hilarious that Beerus was sleeping and relaxing while Broly and Gogeta were going all out. We do know from his reaction to Infinite Zamasu that Beerus isn't sleeping and relaxing if he thinks something big is going on... so he just couldn't care in the slightest about Broly and Gogeta.

But even though Beerus praised Gohan once, you shouldn't forget that this whole Revival started because Goku is the prophesized one who will rival Beerus. Goku, not Gohan, is the Super Saiyan "God" who will challenge Beerus, as laid out back in 2013.

Oh yeah. Goku will be the man and rival Beerus. This is the catalyst of Super.

[QuakingStar]

Considering that the process of Gohan using the maximum amount of power that he can use before going Berserk with Beast seems to have zapped his stamina, he surely was nowhere near full power when he fought SS Broly despite the fact he had the advantage. He was even lower when he fought PSSB(or SSBE) Vegeta. That much was obvious to most of us here.

Yep. Considering Gohan was getting all the praise from Whis and Beerus and Broly was not. They see Broly as just another chump. Broly and Gogeta didn't get any praise then and they aren't getting any kudos now from Beerus and Whis. Despite Broly being stronger now.

I still find it hilarious that Beerus was sleeping and relaxing while Broly and Gogeta were going all out. We do know from his reaction to Infinite Zamasu that Beerus isn't sleeping and relaxing if he thinks something big is going on... so he just couldn't care in the slightest about Broly and Gogeta.

But even though Beerus praised Gohan once, you shouldn't forget that this whole Revival started because Goku is the prophesized one who will rival Beerus. Goku, not Gohan, is the Super Saiyan "God" who will challenge Beerus, as laid out back in 2013.

and Gohan still has more potential. The difference is that Goku is the MC and trains hard constantly while Gohan will likely fall into the "hasn't trained in a while" schtick again.

[Jack Bz]

Goku spells this out explicitly in the latest chapter, which Toriyama wrote.

[Koitsukai]

This is mental, potential and being the strongest are not married, thay are not exclusive like at all.

You can have 87/100 potential, and still lose to a 90/90 potential, when it comes to beating the arc and coming up on top of others, what matters is how strong you are NOW, not how strong you might be able to become eventually.
Goku has been and always will be the strongest at the time even though he is not the one with the highest potential.

Shit, he beat Freeza on Namek while not even having the highest potential in his own house. That's the whole thing about his character, fuck potential, he'll fuck you up no matter how much latent power you have... the prophecy has nothing to do with having the most potential. I can't believe we are now spelling the word APPLE.

[TobyS]

Jesus, Goku is just saying a generic “its not over yet” type thing. Gohan barely seemed affected by his kick and demonstrated the ability to bypass ui while still not going berserk.

Toriyama said piccolo is on goku and vegetas level and we know gohan is above him. People just love wanking goku and vegeta. It doesn't matter if you think it's unearned it is what it is

[Yuji]

And yet, in the Tournament of Power, Vegeta sacrifices himself for Goku, recognizing Goku as the only one who can defeat Jiren and "trenspass into the domain of the Gods".

Yes, because Goku's upbringing and training leads him to be better attuned to achieve and master UI, Vegeta and other characters explicitly state that UI would be against his nature. If UE were a thing by that point, it'd be just as easily within ToP Vegeta's grasp and would no doubt help him pull ahead of Jiren just as UI did for Goku.

Again, I find it impossible to believe that the writers intended for a sidekick like Vegeta to have greater strength and potential than the main star (Goku).

That is why Goku in End of Z is portrayed as obviously superior to everyone else, except for Uub.

What's wrong with that? "Potential" in the series is basically defined by how strong you are without training. Several characters are explicitly stated to have more potential than Goku: his son and Broly, as two examples. Freeza would fit in this category. Cell would fit in this category. Majin Boo would fit in this category. All the Kaioshin and Angels would fit in this category. Considering Goku's birth battle power was 2 and Vegeta's was in the 600s, considering when they met Vegeta was over twice as strong despite more conventional training methods and considering both explicitly state in their battle Vegeta is the prodigy, whereas Goku isn't, it's not far fetched at all.

Goku is a prodigy to some extent, yes. He's a prodigy in part 1 where all he's compared to are humans. Then the series flips this along with many other misconceptions we had on its head in part two where we find out that in the grand scheme of the universe, Goku's power isn't all that special and he manages to tangle with people with far greater potential and explicitly better genetics than his through hard work, unconventional training methods, teamwork and trust, and a lot of luck.

The power hierarchy basically goes: Gods > abnormal mutants (basically every villain) > elite Saiyans > Namekians > average Saiyans > most aliens >/= humans.

[QuakingStar]

Jesus, Goku is just saying a generic “its not over yet” type thing. Gohan barely seemed affected by his kick and demonstrated the ability to bypass ui while still not going berserk.

Toriyama said piccolo is on goku and vegetas level and we know gohan is above him. People just love wanking goku and vegeta. It doesn't matter if you think it's unearned it is what it is

I know, the chapter is making a point about how important experience and technique are though. Gohan may be overall stronger but it isn't by some massive margine while Goku clearly has more experience and UI's auto ability keeps in him the game. Gohan was always "the chosen one". Like Anakin was in Star Wars, yet by experience Obi Wan was able to beat him.

[Jack Bz]

Jesus, Goku is just saying a generic “its not over yet” type thing. Gohan barely seemed affected by his kick and demonstrated the ability to bypass ui while still not going berserk.

Toriyama said piccolo is on goku and vegetas level and we know gohan is above him. People just love wanking goku and vegeta. It doesn't matter if you think it's unearned it is what it is

I don't know what you thought my point was but i was posting that as a response to the "Goku has the most potential" argument that was happening in this thread (in favour of Gohan obviously having more potential and Goku being so strong because of his work ethic).

I don't care who is stronger out of the two and don't think Toriyama or Toyo really did either.

[Miracles]

Who will master the ultimate technique of the gods in Ultra Instinct and become the strongest? Goku or Vegeta [Naturally Goku]. Who is suppose to "rival" the "strongest/most feared entity in the universe [Behind Whis]" Beerus? Goku or Vegeta. This is all due to training consistency. Yeah others like Freeza are said to be geniuses, gifted etc but never have a better future in terms of power than Goku/Vegeta. Factually only Gohan was said to have more potential than Goku and Vegeta. No other character has this under their name tag.

This is also said repeatedly in the Super Hero arc about Gohan being better than Goku and Vegeta if he wanted. Which is also proven in this sparring session. The top three among the cast is Goku, Vegeta and Gohan. They are ahead of everyone else. Broly is still struggling to even gain control over his power just as a Super Saiyan.

So the best potential is Gohan but he always falls behind in training. Hence why Goku said he doesn't mess around when it comes to training despite Gohan's prodigious talents. This is how Goku/Vegeta stay on top.

[SupremeKai25]

Who will master the ultimate technique of the gods in Ultra Instinct and become the strongest? Goku or Vegeta [Naturally Goku]. Who is suppose to "rival" the "strongest/most feared entity in the universe [Behind Whis]" Beerus? Goku or Vegeta. This is all due to training consistency. Yeah others like Freeza are said to be geniuses, gifted etc but never have a better future in terms of power than Goku/Vegeta. Factually only Gohan was said to have more potential than Goku and Vegeta. No other character has this under their name tag.

This is also said repeatedly in the Super Hero arc about Gohan being better than Goku and Vegeta if he wanted. Which is also proven in this sparring session. The top three among the cast is Goku, Vegeta and Gohan. They are ahead of everyone else. Broly is still struggling to even gain control over his power just as a Super Saiyan.

So the best potential is Gohan but he always falls behind in training. Hence why Goku said he doesn't mess around when it comes to training despite Gohan's prodigious talents. This is how Goku/Vegeta stay on top.

Why do you hold Vegeta in such high regard? Ultimately, his role in the story amounts to making Goku look good.

Has there ever been a storyline, at any point, in which Vegeta took the final spotlight away from Goku?

Vegeta is just tagging along for the training because he is popular and he sells figurines, but realistically, he has no chance of "usurping" Goku's place as Beerus' rival.

On the subject of Gohan, it might be interesting that Beerus considers him as a candidate for Destroyer; but he never questions if Gohan was the Super Saiyan God of legend. His mind remains fixed on Goku being the one of the Oracle Fish's prophecy.

Ultimately, Goku is destined for more greatness than Gohan.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why do you hold Vegeta in such high regard? Ultimately, his role in the story amounts to making Goku look good.

Has there ever been a storyline, at any point, in which Vegeta took the final spotlight away from Goku?

Vegeta is just tagging along for the training because he is popular and he sells figurines, but realistically, he has no chance of "usurping" Goku's place as Beerus' rival.

On the subject of Gohan, it might be interesting that Beerus considers him as a candidate for Destroyer; but he never questions if Gohan was the Super Saiyan God of legend. His mind remains fixed on Goku being the one of the Oracle Fish's prophecy.

Ultimately, Goku is destined for more greatness than Gohan.

Battle of Gods announced both Goku and Vegeta as potential rivals for Beerus. Remember Beerus and Whis talking about it in the end? And Vegeta is the one who has a past with Beerus, had two rematches with him and ended up being trained by him. Vegeta is the one chasing after Beerus while Goku set his sight on the Angels ever since getting UI.

The SSJG prophecy has already been fulfilled. It was Goku, but only because it was an unanimous decision among the Saiyans to give Goku the SSJG power.

[Miracles]

Who will master the ultimate technique of the gods in Ultra Instinct and become the strongest? Goku or Vegeta [Naturally Goku]. Who is suppose to "rival" the "strongest/most feared entity in the universe [Behind Whis]" Beerus? Goku or Vegeta. This is all due to training consistency. Yeah others like Freeza are said to be geniuses, gifted etc but never have a better future in terms of power than Goku/Vegeta. Factually only Gohan was said to have more potential than Goku and Vegeta. No other character has this under their name tag.

This is also said repeatedly in the Super Hero arc about Gohan being better than Goku and Vegeta if he wanted. Which is also proven in this sparring session. The top three among the cast is Goku, Vegeta and Gohan. They are ahead of everyone else. Broly is still struggling to even gain control over his power just as a Super Saiyan.

So the best potential is Gohan but he always falls behind in training. Hence why Goku said he doesn't mess around when it comes to training despite Gohan's prodigious talents. This is how Goku/Vegeta stay on top.

Why do you hold Vegeta in such high regard? Ultimately, his role in the story amounts to making Goku look good.

Has there ever been a storyline, at any point, in which Vegeta took the final spotlight away from Goku?

Vegeta is just tagging along for the training because he is popular and he sells figurines, but realistically, he has no chance of "usurping" Goku's place as Beerus' rival.

On the subject of Gohan, it might be interesting that Beerus considers him as a candidate for Destroyer; but he never questions if Gohan was the Super Saiyan God of legend. His mind remains fixed on Goku being the one of the Oracle Fish's prophecy.

Ultimately, Goku is destined for more greatness than Gohan.

Goku is always destined for more greatness than Gohan since his interest in fighting isn't really there. However, it is routinely stated throughout DB history and Super that Gohan could be stronger than Goku if he wanted to be. The desire simply isn't there.

Vegeta is Goku's rival. They are always one upping each other.

BoG: Vegeta surpassed Goku then Goku gets a ritual to become god surpassing Vegeta.

RoF: Vegeta gains god ki without a ritual [stated in the anime or movie?]

U6: Goku only fights more productive against Hit because he was able to get intel from Vegeta's fight against Hit and Jaco/Squid king.

Future Trunks arc: Vegeta takes Goku's God mode switch skill to another level that he used against Hit. Still Goku one ups him with Full power Super Saiyan Blue.

TOP: Vegeta unlocks more power from SSJB after Goku goes UI sign. Still Goku gets UI. Only because UI's principles fit Goku's past teachings from gods like Korin, Kami, King Kai etc. Vegeta isn't familiar with this nor does it suit him.

DBS: Broly: Both get their cheeks kicked by Broly. Neither make a difference and fuse.

Galactic Patrol arc: Goku goes UI Sign Vegeta comes back stronger from Yardrat then Goku goes UI and bests him.

Granolah the Survivor arc: Goku goes UI loses to Granolah, Vegeta goes UE loses to Granolah, UE Vegeta evolves against Gas then Goku gains True UI. Goku coming out on top then both getting wrecked by Freeza.

Super Hero arc: Skirmish but Gohan was the man of the hour. Both Goku and Vegeta are lesser than Gohan when it comes down to potential.

Either one of them is vying for the spot against Beerus.

Why do you hold Vegeta in such high regard? Ultimately, his role in the story amounts to making Goku look good.

Has there ever been a storyline, at any point, in which Vegeta took the final spotlight away from Goku?

Vegeta is just tagging along for the training because he is popular and he sells figurines, but realistically, he has no chance of "usurping" Goku's place as Beerus' rival.

On the subject of Gohan, it might be interesting that Beerus considers him as a candidate for Destroyer; but he never questions if Gohan was the Super Saiyan God of legend. His mind remains fixed on Goku being the one of the Oracle Fish's prophecy.

Ultimately, Goku is destined for more greatness than Gohan.

Battle of Gods announced both Goku and Vegeta as potential rivals for Beerus. Remember Beerus and Whis talking about it in the end? And Vegeta is the one who has a past with Beerus, had two rematches with him and ended up being trained by him. Vegeta is the one chasing after Beerus while Goku set his sight on the Angels ever since getting UI.

The SSJG prophecy has already been fulfilled. It was Goku, but only because it was an unanimous decision among the Saiyans to give Goku the SSJG power.

It hasn't been fulfilled. That's why the prophecy [Future event] of Goku and Vegeta being Beerus "rivals" has yet to come.