The reason Goku stayed dead that no one talks about

[Lukmendes]

Honestly Goku's logic for staying dead is very dumb for me since Cell saga itself contradicts it.

Like, sure villains generally show up to go after his ass, but Trunks' timeline shows exactly what they'll do if he's not around to stop them.

It's also ridiculous for Goku to be all like "Gohan is more reliable than me", when Goku in that exact same story arc learned Gohan doesn't like fighting... So he's more reliable even though he'd not want to fight at all? And then Buu saga threw the idea of Gohan being more reliable right out of the window, since he's about as incompetent as Goku when it comes to dealing with Buu (To the point we have Gohan seeing Buu absorb Gotenks and Goku yells at Gohan to stop him from doing it and Gohan just watches, then a few chapters later, Buu absorbs Gohan and Goku would rather get a potara than try to stop it from happening).

I see what Toriyama was going for, but Cell saga itself shows that him not being there is a bad idea, and he unlearned the thing he just learned about Gohan too.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I defended the topic creator before but now I realize the only thing that makes them different from Sadala Elite is that they are not a ban evader.

[ABED]

I mean, if the point is that Goku invites evildoers, then that point is invalidated by Babidi and co. invading even though Goku is dead.

You are taking that point entirely too literally. Goku shows up for the Tenkaichi Budokai and guess what? A universe ending threat is there waiting for them. When it's said danger follows him around, it's not literal. It follows him in the same way murder followed Jessica Fletcher or Adrian Monk.

Which was entirely a coincidence. They didn't show up because Goku was there. They would have still showed up even if Goku was dead. Again, remove Goku from the equation, and Babidi and co. still invade the Earth exactly as they did in the Main timeline. We know this as a fact, becaues that's exactly what happened in Future Trunks timeline. Goku was dead for 30 years, yet the Babidi corps still showed up and launched their attack.

Again, Goku being dead doesn't guarantee that the Earth will be safe. Goku being dead just means one of the strongest warriors is no longer around if the Earth is endangered. The Android/Cell saga couldn't even make up its mind on what it wanted its core message to be. Initially, it was "The Earth is doomed if Goku dies", then at the end it's suddenly "The Earth is better-off if Goku's dead".

Furthermore, it's OOC for Goku to suddenly care about the Earth, when he was willing to doom the entire Universe in the next arc just to have a good fight with Kid Buu.

I said you are being too literal and your response is again takes it too literally.

[lancerman]

I think we can agree that Goku staying dead at the end of the Cell arc added complexity to his character via his multiple reasons for doing so. It began his desire to build the next generation, and his fear of attracting more enemies to earth as well as emphasizing his desire to fight strong opponents but wanting to find a balance between that and preventing enemies from posing a danger. It's great stuff. But there's a nuanced reason behind his decision to stay dead that I don't see anyone mention - His Saiyan Nature.

Didn't Goku tell Gohan that one of his reasons for staying dead is that he believes Gohan is more reliable than him? This proves that his Saiyan nature being this uncontrollable part of himself that put others at risk is something that bothered Goku and he wanted to find a solution to it which he found in Gohan and staying dead. Remember how guilty he felt when Piccolo told him off for how he handled the Gohan vs Cell situation? That guilt is one of the reasons why he decided to stay dead, because his Saiyan nature made him blinded by the idea of providing a fair fight, a mistake that he fears he would repeat again. One of the main aspects of Goku's character is that he can put fighting over what appears best for the universe at the moment, as shown by him sparing Vegeta and letting the Androids be completed because he wants to fight them e.t.c.

Although Goku is pure of heart, he evolved from a warrior race that didn't evolve to feel compassion but to care more for the fighting aspect of things which drastically altered his way of viewing situations such as Gohan vs Cell. Why Goku wasn't as compassionate as expected for someone pure of heart, despite comprehending human morals, is because Saiyans like Goku aren't capable of that compassion. Goku's purity is his pure Saiyan nature (unless purity is defined differently in Japanese but I don't know much Japanese). Earth isn't made for Goku and he realized this.

Gohan was more reliable than Goku because, unlike Goku, he won't spare villains or give them time to be at their fullest for the sake of having a challenge. Also, Gohan did learn from toying around with Cell to never give evils such as Cell the chance to cause a major disaster again, something Goku cannot do due to his pure Saiyan desires. Gohan said it himself that he's glad Cell is back because he can correct his mistake and kill Cell the way he was supposed to. In short, Gohan not being a fighter at heart was made him a better protector than Goku, who was a fighter at heart.

Hopefully you can see now that Goku's Saiyan nature was a key reason for him deciding to stay dead. Making there 4 reasons for Goku staying dead: Attracting foes, Gohan being stronger than him, wanting to fight strong guys and his Saiyan nature being a risk. This did make him a character complex didn't it? It's also why I think it would've been the perfect place to end Goku's character.

Yeah I disagree with almost all of this.

I don't think Goku's reasonings hold up much and were more just an excuse to go with the botched attempt of Gohan being the new protagonist. If Goku was alive, there would be way too much of a pull to go back to him.

The attracting enemies thing was always sort of silly. There were 3 sets of villains that specifically threatened Earth because of Goku. The Saiyans, Freeza and the Androids. Outside of the Saiyans, even those are dubious connections. The Saiyans obviously are tied to Goku via his race and origin. However, Freeza and the Red Ribbon army were evil characters doing evil things before they had a clue who Goku was. One wanted to take over the universe, the other wanted to take over Earth. Had Goku not existed, they would have succeeded the first time.Yes they came back again to take Goku out after he initially defeated them, but that was just because Goku was the hero who got in their way. If it was Gohan or any other hero, then they'd be the guy they would want revenge on. If Gohan became the new "hero" he would eventually have enemies who would try to target him. Goku didn't solve any problems. In fact, at the end of the Android/Cell arc, there's a strong argument that Goku finally took care of all business in his past and there were no lingering threats based on his adventures anymore (besides maybe Pilaf if you count him).

For the second point, considering Gohan's only role as a hero up to that point was succumbing to his Saiyan instincts and allowing Cell to almost blow up Earth, forcing his father to sacrafice himself, and allowing Cell to get a huge power boost to have a chance of overcoming him (almost completely mirroring many of Goku's mistakes against Freeza), I don't see how there is a good case for Gohan being more reliable. He was never in the hero role prior to that. Then afterwards he objectively failed. He shirked his training once Goku died, he walked right into Babidi's trap, didn't put Dabura away quick to stop Boo, etc. Then when he got his big power boost he still gave Boo the chance to aborb Gotenks and lose his advantage AND THEN got himself aborbed when he botched his chance to fuse with Goku. He objectively could have wiped Cell and Boo as soon as he fought them in his highest forms at the time and solved all the issues right there. He was no different than Goku in that regard.

Then we get to the point of Goku not being capable of compassion in comparison to Gohan. Goku showed Piccolo, Vegeta, and Freeza mercy once they were beaten and no longer a threat. Yes in Vegeta's case you could argue that he was just selfishly wanting another fight, but the other two he just let live knowing he could beat them if he really needed to again. He also showed mercy to Tao and Raditz when they deceived him despite one killing his friend's father and the other kidnapping his son and threatening Earth. Again, compare that to Gohan who only didn't kill Cell right away because he went nuts and wanted him to suffer. Gohan's entire power boost scenario relies on him going into a blinding bloodlust rage. We never see Goku like that.

I really don't think any of those were good reasons. It happened because the story demanded it for what Toriyama wanted to go with. Gohan being stronger was the only true reason you gave and even that goes against Goku's character from the rest of the series where he would have been excited to have someone to train to surpass. It doesn't really make Goku complex and layered if none of his reasonings hold much water.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I think we can agree that Goku staying dead at the end of the Cell arc added complexity to his character via his multiple reasons for doing so. It began his desire to build the next generation, and his fear of attracting more enemies to earth as well as emphasizing his desire to fight strong opponents but wanting to find a balance between that and preventing enemies from posing a danger. It's great stuff. But there's a nuanced reason behind his decision to stay dead that I don't see anyone mention - His Saiyan Nature.

Didn't Goku tell Gohan that one of his reasons for staying dead is that he believes Gohan is more reliable than him? This proves that his Saiyan nature being this uncontrollable part of himself that put others at risk is something that bothered Goku and he wanted to find a solution to it which he found in Gohan and staying dead. Remember how guilty he felt when Piccolo told him off for how he handled the Gohan vs Cell situation? That guilt is one of the reasons why he decided to stay dead, because his Saiyan nature made him blinded by the idea of providing a fair fight, a mistake that he fears he would repeat again. One of the main aspects of Goku's character is that he can put fighting over what appears best for the universe at the moment, as shown by him sparing Vegeta and letting the Androids be completed because he wants to fight them e.t.c.

Although Goku is pure of heart, he evolved from a warrior race that didn't evolve to feel compassion but to care more for the fighting aspect of things which drastically altered his way of viewing situations such as Gohan vs Cell. Why Goku wasn't as compassionate as expected for someone pure of heart, despite comprehending human morals, is because Saiyans like Goku aren't capable of that compassion. Goku's purity is his pure Saiyan nature (unless purity is defined differently in Japanese but I don't know much Japanese). Earth isn't made for Goku and he realized this.

Gohan was more reliable than Goku because, unlike Goku, he won't spare villains or give them time to be at their fullest for the sake of having a challenge. Also, Gohan did learn from toying around with Cell to never give evils such as Cell the chance to cause a major disaster again, something Goku cannot do due to his pure Saiyan desires. Gohan said it himself that he's glad Cell is back because he can correct his mistake and kill Cell the way he was supposed to. In short, Gohan not being a fighter at heart was made him a better protector than Goku, who was a fighter at heart.

Hopefully you can see now that Goku's Saiyan nature was a key reason for him deciding to stay dead. Making there 4 reasons for Goku staying dead: Attracting foes, Gohan being stronger than him, wanting to fight strong guys and his Saiyan nature being a risk. This did make him a character complex didn't it? It's also why I think it would've been the perfect place to end Goku's character.

Yeah I disagree with almost all of this.

I don't think Goku's reasonings hold up much and were more just an excuse to go with the botched attempt of Gohan being the new protagonist. If Goku was alive, there would be way too much of a pull to go back to him.

The attracting enemies thing was always sort of silly. There were 3 sets of villains that specifically threatened Earth because of Goku. The Saiyans, Freeza and the Androids. Outside of the Saiyans, even those are dubious connections. The Saiyans obviously are tied to Goku via his race and origin. However, Freeza and the Red Ribbon army were evil characters doing evil things before they had a clue who Goku was. One wanted to take over the universe, the other wanted to take over Earth. Had Goku not existed, they would have succeeded the first time.Yes they came back again to take Goku out after he initially defeated them, but that was just because Goku was the hero who got in their way. If it was Gohan or any other hero, then they'd be the guy they would want revenge on. If Gohan became the new "hero" he would eventually have enemies who would try to target him. Goku didn't solve any problems. In fact, at the end of the Android/Cell arc, there's a strong argument that Goku finally took care of all business in his past and there were no lingering threats based on his adventures anymore (besides maybe Pilaf if you count him).

For the second point, considering Gohan's only role as a hero up to that point was succumbing to his Saiyan instincts and allowing Cell to almost blow up Earth, forcing his father to sacrafice himself, and allowing Cell to get a huge power boost to have a chance of overcoming him (almost completely mirroring many of Goku's mistakes against Freeza), I don't see how there is a good case for Gohan being more reliable. He was never in the hero role prior to that. Then afterwards he objectively failed. He shirked his training once Goku died, he walked right into Babidi's trap, didn't put Dabura away quick to stop Boo, etc. Then when he got his big power boost he still gave Boo the chance to aborb Gotenks and lose his advantage AND THEN got himself aborbed when he botched his chance to fuse with Goku. He objectively could have wiped Cell and Boo as soon as he fought them in his highest forms at the time and solved all the issues right there. He was no different than Goku in that regard.

Then we get to the point of Goku not being capable of compassion in comparison to Gohan. Goku showed Piccolo, Vegeta, and Freeza mercy once they were beaten and no longer a threat. Yes in Vegeta's case you could argue that he was just selfishly wanting another fight, but the other two he just let live knowing he could beat them if he really needed to again. He also showed mercy to Tao and Raditz when they deceived him despite one killing his friend's father and the other kidnapping his son and threatening Earth. Again, compare that to Gohan who only didn't kill Cell right away because he went nuts and wanted him to suffer. Gohan's entire power boost scenario relies on him going into a blinding bloodlust rage. We never see Goku like that.

I really don't think any of those were good reasons. It happened because the story demanded it for what Toriyama wanted to go with. Gohan being stronger was the only true reason you gave and even that goes against Goku's character from the rest of the series where he would have been excited to have someone to train to surpass. It doesn't really make Goku complex and layered if none of his reasonings hold much water.

Yes, and clearly all of this was a contrived attempt plot wise on Toriyama's part at the "passing the torch" device due to his belief at the time that Goku's story had run its course and he had nowhere else to go with it after the Cell arc. Though it was apparent as the final arc of the manga got underway that Gohan just wasn't going to work out in the protagonist position. Given his character and the things we know from previous arcs, it was an ill fit and lo and behold that plan didn't work out because Toriyama had to reverse course and bring back Goku in the end. He tried to make it work, but it was one of those parts of the story that fell apart in execution.

[super michael]

Goku going to the 25th Martial Art Tournament wasn't what caused the trouble, since the enemies wasn't targeting Goku at all. Their target was actually Gohan. Gohan was going to go to the tournament, regardless if Goku went to earth or not.

Would Vegeta be smart to not get possessed if Goku isn't around? No idea. We know that Vegeta was going to join, when Gohan was going to join the tournament.

[ABED]

It's not a matter of intelligence. Vegeta only agreed to fall under Babidi's spell because Goku was only in the living world for a day. So no, without Goku, the Buu arc doesn't happen.

[super michael]

It's not a matter of intelligence. Vegeta only agreed to fall under Babidi's spell because Goku was only in the living world for a day. So no, without Goku, the Buu arc doesn't happen.

That isn't 100% accurate, Vegeta wanted to get possessed since he saw there was a gap in power between himself and Goku. He saw that when Goku killed Yakon, then he remembered that Babidi powered up his minions, so he thought if he got possessed, then that gap would disappear.
Vegeta was correct, since his SSJ2 was equal to Goku SSJ2 form.

He didn't get possessed due to Goku only being on earth for 1 day.


Vegeta claimed that he got possessed since he wanted to return to his evil days and not care about anyone, however Goku saw that was a huge lie.

[Majin Buu]

Goku going to the 25th Martial Art Tournament wasn't what caused the trouble, since the enemies wasn't targeting Goku at all. Their target was actually Gohan. Gohan was going to go to the tournament, regardless if Goku went to earth or not.

You're implying that they were specifically looking for Gohan when that's incorrect. They were looking for people with powerful ki. Gohan became their target when he revealed his power.

[super michael]

Goku going to the 25th Martial Art Tournament wasn't what caused the trouble, since the enemies wasn't targeting Goku at all. Their target was actually Gohan. Gohan was going to go to the tournament, regardless if Goku went to earth or not.

You're implying that they were specifically looking for Gohan when that's incorrect. They were looking for people with powerful ki. Gohan became their target when he revealed his power.

True you are right, Babidi minions were looking for anyone with a high power level.

[MasenkoHA]

It's not a matter of intelligence. Vegeta only agreed to fall under Babidi's spell because Goku was only in the living world for a day. So no, without Goku, the Buu arc doesn't happen.

He didn't get possessed due to Goku only being on earth for 1 day.

You're missing his point. If Goku hadn't come to earth for one day Vegeta wouldn't have given himself to Bobbidi's power to close the gap between him and Goku.

No Goku on earth for 24 hours

No Vegeta choosing to get possessed to be able to fight Goku

[SupremeKai25]

It's not a matter of intelligence. Vegeta only agreed to fall under Babidi's spell because Goku was only in the living world for a day. So no, without Goku, the Buu arc doesn't happen.

He didn't get possessed due to Goku only being on earth for 1 day.

You're missing his point. If Goku hadn't come to earth for one day Vegeta wouldn't have given himself to Bobbidi's power to close the gap between him and Goku.

No Goku on earth for 24 hours

No Vegeta choosing to get possessed to be able to fight Goku

You are aware that Babidi and his minions would have attacked the Earth even if Goku wasn't there, Yes?

[MasenkoHA]

He didn't get possessed due to Goku only being on earth for 1 day.

You're missing his point. If Goku hadn't come to earth for one day Vegeta wouldn't have given himself to Bobbidi's power to close the gap between him and Goku.

No Goku on earth for 24 hours

No Vegeta choosing to get possessed to be able to fight Goku

You are aware that Babidi and his minions would have attacked the Earth even if Goku wasn't there, Yes?

Whooooosh. Nobody said otherwise.

Nobody said "Bobbodi and his minions would have left the earth alone if Goku wasnt there"

But Goku BEING there is what led to Vegeta choosing to get possessed. Vegeta and Goku's fight is what led to Boo being freed because they gave enough energy to awaken Boo

[super michael]

It's not a matter of intelligence. Vegeta only agreed to fall under Babidi's spell because Goku was only in the living world for a day. So no, without Goku, the Buu arc doesn't happen.

He didn't get possessed due to Goku only being on earth for 1 day.

You're missing his point. If Goku hadn't come to earth for one day Vegeta wouldn't have given himself to Bobbidi's power to close the gap between him and Goku.

No Goku on earth for 24 hours

No Vegeta choosing to get possessed to be able to fight Goku

Goku isn't to blame for Vegeta getting possessed, he got possessed out of his own free will.
The whole Goku vs Vegeta fight was Vegeta fault, Vegeta forced Goku to either fight him or he would kill more innocent people. Vegeta killed thousands and wanted to kill more, if Goku refused.

Vegeta could have been smart and just kill Dabura and Babidi, then have his little rematch.

We know Goku doesn't like seeing innocent people die. Didn't like it when Dr Gero and Cell did it.

[Zephyr]

Vegeta isn't to blame for Goku agreeing to fight him, he threatened Kaioshin, told Bobbidi to transport them away from the tournament grounds, and powered up to Super Saiyan 2 out of his own free will.

Let's also not pretend that Goku didn't go to unnecessary lengths to indulge Vegeta. He was smiling prior to and during the fight, and we later learn he withheld Super Saiyan 3.

[Cure Dragon 255]

While I think the above does go too easy on Vegeta, the fact is that Goku's presence was what allowed Babidi to tempt Vegeta. If Goku hadnt been around, I doubt Vegeta would go "MWA HAHA! I WILL BECOME EVIL TO BEAT GOHAN UP" or anything like that.

[ABED]

It's not a matter of intelligence. Vegeta only agreed to fall under Babidi's spell because Goku was only in the living world for a day. So no, without Goku, the Buu arc doesn't happen.

That isn't 100% accurate, Vegeta wanted to get possessed since he saw there was a gap in power between himself and Goku. He saw that when Goku killed Yakon, then he remembered that Babidi powered up his minions, so he thought if he got possessed, then that gap would disappear.
Vegeta was correct, since his SSJ2 was equal to Goku SSJ2 form.

He didn't get possessed due to Goku only being on earth for 1 day.


Vegeta claimed that he got possessed since he wanted to return to his evil days and not care about anyone, however Goku saw that was a huge lie.

He wouldn't have done that if Goku was alive. Vegeta was desperate to fight Goku and close that gap. Had Goku been alive, he wouldn't have the need.

Vegeta could have been smart and just kill Dabura and Babidi, then have his little rematch.

This isn't a matter of intelligence. It's a question of motives.

Goku isn't to blame for Vegeta getting possessed, he got possessed out of his own free will.

No one is saying Goku is at fault. We're saying that without that factor, Vegeta doesn't make that decision.

[BlueChi]

While I think the above does go too easy on Vegeta, the fact is that Goku's presence was what allowed Babidi to tempt Vegeta. If Goku hadnt been around, I doubt Vegeta would go "MWA HAHA! I WILL BECOME EVIL TO BEAT GOHAN UP" or anything like that.

I mean, there was plenty of negative emotion for Babidi to manipulate.
Vegeta was clearly resentful over being domesticated, and that would be an easy switch for the Majin

Either way, Vegeta was gonna Vegeta, tho maybe Majin Buu wouldn't be revived if Goku was out of the picture and Trunks and Bulma made him turn on Babidi.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t know if it’s really fair to blame Goku for Vegeta throwing a hissy fit. None of the characters in the story even blame him for that. Goku has no control over Vegeta being a spoiled brat with a fragile ego.

In terms of allowing his fight with Vegeta to drag on, even if we ignore the fact that Super Saiyan 3 most likely hadn’t been thought of that point, that’s not exactly a uniquely Goku problem. Dragon Ball characters in general have issues with being pragmatic. That’s how the entire Cell saga was able to happen. Even Gohan has been guilty of that.

[Zephyr]

While I think the above does go too easy on Vegeta, the fact is that Goku's presence was what allowed Babidi to tempt Vegeta. If Goku hadnt been around, I doubt Vegeta would go "MWA HAHA! I WILL BECOME EVIL TO BEAT GOHAN UP" or anything like that.

I mean, there was plenty of negative emotion for Babidi to manipulate.
Vegeta was clearly resentful over being domesticated, and that would be an easy switch for the Majin

Either way, Vegeta was gonna Vegeta, tho maybe Majin Buu wouldn't be revived if Goku was out of the picture and Trunks and Bulma made him turn on Babidi.

Negative emotion or not, Bobbidi only thought to possess Vegeta because Dabra suggested it. Dabra only thought to suggest it because Vegeta was yelling about how badly he wanted to fight Goku.