Why are the English dubisms far too ingrained into the fandom?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

In any case I would strongly advise against telling anyone they are "not a Dragon Ball fan", its petty, juvenile, schoolyard bullying tactics that I think this forum should rise above.

Are fans of Power Ranger "Super Sentai fans"? Are fans of Cardcaptors "Card Captor Sakura fans"? Are they bullying themselves if they agree they aren't?

These people are fans of one very specific revisioning they grew up on. They call themselves "Dragonball fans" because the revisioning was still call Dragonball by the revisors. Had the revisors renamed it something else, they'd have called themselves fans of that something else and fully agreed they weren't Dragonball fans.

You can believe these people are not fans of Dragon Ball, Cardcaptor Sakura, Super Sentai or whatever, but by all means keep those opinions to yourself and don't voice them. It's disrespectful to other people, and being the perpetrator of such remarks is far worse than people claiming to be fans of something they are not fully informed about (as long as they're willing to learn they are worthy of our respect).

[Adamant]

In any case I would strongly advise against telling anyone they are "not a Dragon Ball fan", its petty, juvenile, schoolyard bullying tactics that I think this forum should rise above.

Are fans of Power Ranger "Super Sentai fans"? Are fans of Cardcaptors "Card Captor Sakura fans"? Are they bullying themselves if they agree they aren't?

These people are fans of one very specific revisioning they grew up on. They call themselves "Dragonball fans" because the revisioning was still call Dragonball by the revisors. Had the revisors renamed it something else, they'd have called themselves fans of that something else and fully agreed they weren't Dragonball fans.

You can believe these people are not fans of Dragon Ball, Cardcaptor Sakura, Super Sentai or whatever, but by all means keep those opinions to yourself and don't voice them. It's disrespectful to other people, and being the perpetrator of such remarks is far worse than people claiming to be fans of something they are not fully informed about (as long as they're willing to learn they are worthy of our respect).

Jesus dude, calm down. Is this a particularly sore point for you or something?

I don't even get what you're trying to say here, is a Power Rangers fan only worthy of your respect if he's willing to learn about Super Sentai? Is your respect towards people tied to how much they're willing to learn about the origin of some dumb childrens' TV show? What?

[MasenkoHA]

In any case I would strongly advise against telling anyone they are "not a Dragon Ball fan", its petty, juvenile, schoolyard bullying tactics that I think this forum should rise above.

Are fans of Power Ranger "Super Sentai fans"? Are fans of Cardcaptors "Card Captor Sakura fans"? Are they bullying themselves if they agree they aren't?

These people are fans of one very specific revisioning they grew up on. They call themselves "Dragonball fans" because the revisioning was still call Dragonball by the revisors. Had the revisors renamed it something else, they'd have called themselves fans of that something else and fully agreed they weren't Dragonball fans.

You can believe these people are not fans of Dragon Ball, Cardcaptor Sakura, Super Sentai or whatever, but by all means keep those opinions to yourself and don't voice them. It's disrespectful to other people, and being the perpetrator of such remarks is far worse than people claiming to be fans of something they are not fully informed about (as long as they're willing to learn they are worthy of our respect).

I don't know enough about Cardcaptors to make any sort of statement but I can assure you Power Rangers fans who don't also like Super Sentai don't call themselves Sentai fans and will proudly tell you they're not. It's not some sort of elitism bullying thing, they would agree they're not Super Sentai fans, they like its American adaptation Power Rangers.

Which is the point Adamant seems to be getting at. If Funimation had just decided to rename the show and characters to go along with the re-scoring, reversioning of the character and vibes of the show those fans will tell you "I dont like Dragon Ball I like Zero and the Magic Dragon!

There's an argument to be had that at the end of the day Funimation's reversioning of pre-Kai Dragon Ball series is nothing close to Super Sentai to Power Rangers but it's not bullying to point out people like different things just because those things came from the same source.

If someone told me "You don't like Stephen King's The Shining, you like Stanley Kubrick's The Shining, I wouldn't get defensive I would tell them "correct"

[Adamant]

I don't know enough about Cardcaptors to make any sort of statement but I can assure you Power Rangers fans who don't also like Super Sentai don't call themselves Sentai fans and will proudly tell you they're not. It's not some sort of elitism bullying thing, they would agree they're not Super Sentai fans, they like its American adaptation Power Rangers.

Which is the point Adamant seems to be getting at. If Funimation had just decided to rename the show and characters to go along with the re-scoring, reversioning of the character and vibes of the show those fans will tell you "I dont like Dragon Ball I like Zero and the Magic Dragon!

There's an argument to be had that at the end of the day Funimation's reversioning of pre-Kai Dragon Ball series is nothing close to Super Sentai to Power Rangers but it's not bullying to point out people like different things just because those things came from the same source.

If someone told me "You don't like Stephen King's The Shining, you like Stanley Kubrick's The Shining, I wouldn't get defensive I would tell them "correct"

Yeah. I know Mike doesn't like posts that don't say much more than "yeah, this", but that was indeed what I was getting at.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Jesus dude, calm down. Is this a particularly sore point for you or something?

No, I just have a disdain for sub elitism or snobbery of any sort (I don't talk to people about music as much as I used to for example, because frankly too many people are assholes over others liking what they like).

I also remember you disregarding dubs as being "only for children" once on these very forums. Now that was many years ago, so maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt that you've risen above that now. I'm just trying to make sure no dub fans feel disrespected. You don't like dubs, that's fine, but let others enjoy them.

I don't even get what you're trying to say here, is a Power Rangers fan only worthy of your respect if he's willing to learn about Super Sentai? Is your respect towards people tied to how much they're willing to learn about the origin of some dumb childrens' TV show? What?

No, unlike purists of anything I don't sink down to their level with the line of thinking that other fans are unworthy of our respect for liking something different.

I've gone on record as saying I think Funimation's dub of GT is complete garbage and doesn't at all faithfully represent the tone of that show. I would still not shame anyone for liking it. I've talked with 90sDBZ on here about that dub as I know he thinks it's fine. We just respectfully disagree but I would never tell him he's not a fan of Dragon Ball GT regardless of how I feel about one of its two English dubs.

My point was we shouldn't be telling people they are "not fans" of something regardless of whether or not any revisionism wad involved, its needlessly confrontational and only makes the person posting those remarks come off as having some sort of superiority complex.

As someone who only has surface knowledge of Power Rangers though, no I'd never feel the need to deem anyone unworthy of respect. I'm aware the source material is called Super Sentai but that's only from watching YouTube videos about the history of Saban and their association with Dragon Ball Z where it was mentioned for context.

In fact I don't think we should deem anyone unworthy of respect whatsoever, unless they are being pricks. Sub elitists will often say "well if they only watch Funimation's dub they are not Dragon Ball Z fans because its a different show to the original TOEI anime).

I'm just saying what my response to that would be (again assuming that's how you feel, but you may have softened up since), which is "Actually these people are Dragon Ball Z fans, sure the dub they watched was inaccurate but at least it gave them an introduction to the series". If said fans then decided "I want to watch the show in Japanese now to learn more about it" then great, I'm always happy to hear that. If they said they weren't interested in watching the Japanese version and would only ever watch Funimation's dub sub elitists would then proceed to say they are not real fans, which I think is a bad decision for the sub elitist to make as that is crossing the line and disrespecting fans who for whatever reason don't want to watch in Japanese. I think it's their loss but I will always be cautious not to hurt their feelings.

And yes it's all a cartoon and very trivial at the end of the day, but so is the attitude that "they are not real fans", which I think is something Dragon Ball fans and anime fans in general need to move on from, it's just an uncalled for insult.

I know this forum was founded on being a means of promoting only the original Japanese version but I am happy that in recent times it has become more universal with love for all versions being expressed, and slowly but surely we're getting to a place where dub and sub fans can engage with one another harmoniously.

I'm just doing my part to prevent any and all steps backwards.

There's an argument to be had that at the end of the day Funimation's reversioning of pre-Kai Dragon Ball series is nothing close to Super Sentai to Power Rangers but it's not bullying to point out people like different things just because those things came from the same source.

Pointing out there are differences between the two isn't bullying but dismissing people as "not real fans" is.

As someone who doesn't follow any Power Rangers/Super Sentai discourse and only has had friends who liked the former I've never heard them mention the latter, so whether or not they'd claim to be fans of it I don't know.

[Majin Buu]

In fact I don't think we should deem anyone unworthy of respect whatsoever

He didn't say "they like a heavily altered version of the show so they don't deserve respect" though.

The argument is that those fans are simply fans of Funimation's version of the show. If they don't like the source material- Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z, then they're simply not fans of Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z. They're fans of Funimation's Dragon Ball Z.

And frankly, this wouldn't even be an issue if Funimaton's version of the show didn't go out of it's way to be so different from the source material to the point of being in opposition to it much of the time.

As a side note: For me, this really only applies to Funimation's version of the show. I don't view say, the Spanish dub in the same light since from what I understand, it's actually a faithful dub that actually represents what the source material is.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

In fact I don't think we should deem anyone unworthy of respect whatsoever

He didn't say "they like a heavily altered version of the show so they don't deserve respect" though.

The argument is that those fans are simply fans of Funimation's version of the show. If they don't like the source material- Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z, then they're simply not fans of Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z. They're fans of Funimation's Dragon Ball Z.

I know Adamant didn't directly say these fans don't deserve respect but I just felt that this comment was unnecessarily demeaning:

Thought experiment, though: If Funimation or whoever had renamed the dub something else, like "Zero and the Crystal Balls", would these "hardcore Dragonball fans" still claim to be Dragonball fans?
If no, then... they probably aren't actually fans of Dragonball, no.

So its not "Funimation's Dragon Ball" vs "TOEI's Dragon Ball" its just "Dragon Ball", which I think obfuscates the notion it was one company's Dragon Ball vs another company's Dragon Ball too much because its so open to interpretation. Both are "Dragon Ball" productions and neither is the original source, although the latter is obviously closer to it as it still had Toriyama's handiwork with things like Masako Nozawa as Goku being his idea. Now we all know the mistakes Funimation made with their dub, and it is arguably different enough to the point an argument could be made that people watching it are not getting the same experience. The original Japanese version is still an adaptation itself, albeit one that is much closer to the story Toriyama intended with his manga.

Nonetheless I don't think we should be saying anyone is "not actually" a fan of Dragon Ball, we are all entitled to that opinion but out of courtesy we should avoid saying it to keep peace within the fandom. I happen to think Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT could not be any different from the show aired on Fuji TV between 1996 and 1997, the sentimental, nostalgic feel is replaced by a dull, generic metal score that was only composed to sound even more edgy than Dragon Ball Z (which had no business being edgy to begin with), said needlessly edgy feel remains with Andrew Chandler's narrations, which makes even watching with the Tokunaga score jarring, adult Goku is annoyingly preachy about the importance of being a good person, it almost felt like Funimation were doing everything they could to alter every little thing about GT's identity, and because its all done to an even greater extent than any of their other earlier Dragon Ball dubs I'd argue GT is a worthy contender for their worst dub. Despite all this I would never sink so low as to say people who like Funimation's dub of GT "aren't actually fans of Dragon Ball GT", I might say they are a fan of a deeply revised, loose adaptation of GT, but even then what's the point in saying it out loud on forums. My love for the Japanese version of GT doesn't give me any superiority and justification for dismissing people who enjoy any other version of the show.

Just my two cents, "Don't yuck someone elses yum" and all that. I'd argue calling someone not a fan of anything Dragon Ball will only deter them more from checking out the original Japanese version because sub elitists don't have the decency to say something less argumentative like "there's a lot of inaccuracies in this version of the show, I'd recommend checking out the Japanese version". If I were in their position I'd be far more willing to watch the original because the other fan was making a polite suggestion rather than callously dismissing them for liking a different version.

I don't get why people continue to defend sub elitism, its done far more harm than good for the anime community, even teasing it as Adamant has just reignites that flame that has to be quenched once and for all.

And before any of the mods jump in and give me warnings for daring to defend dub fans I would urge them to read through my posts. I never insulted anyone, and all I'm advocating for is peaceful discussion between both sub and dub fans.

[VegettoEX]

Why on Earth do you think you’d receive a moderator warning for “defending dub fans”….?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Because sub elitism and dub elitism are equally toxic and harmful to the anime community, but the former often gets a free pass here because said fans are fans of the original version of the anime. Neither is ideal though, I hate seeing some dub fans say "I can't stand Goku sounding like a grandma" but at the same time "Fans of X dub are not fans of Dragon Ball" is no better, I'd argue both are destructive to the fandom. One is disrespecting a beloved voice actor, the other is showing contempt for well meaning people that may be willing to give the Japanese version a chance, but I believe the only way they can is if its recommended to them without resorting to insults of any kind, which I'd say calling someone "not actually a fan of Dragon Ball" qualifies as no matter how people try to rationalize it.

I didn't watch Breaking Bad for many years because although I'd heard near universally positive reviews some of the fans were needlessly elitist about it. They trashed other shows and movies I loved to build it up, hell when the show was coming to an end I heard some people saying "will life even be worth living with Breaking Bad over", which I found to be a tad extreme. Suffice to say at least 6 years after the fact when these people moved on from pedestalizing Breaking Bad I finally gave it a chance and loved it, but I would have watched it much sooner if I never heard the "all other shows writing sucks, Breaking Bad is a masterclass in writing" sentiment.

[Majin Buu]

So its not "Funimation's Dragon Ball" vs "TOEI's Dragon Ball" its just "Dragon Ball", which I think obfuscates the notion it was one company's Dragon Ball vs another company's Dragon Ball too much because its so open to interpretation. Both are "Dragon Ball" productions and neither is the original source, although the latter is obviously closer to it as it still had Toriyama's handiwork with things like Masako Nozawa as Goku being his idea.

When it comes to the anime adaptation, the Japanese version is the source material. That's just a fact. The dub you enjoy watching is using footage that has a point of origin and acknowledging that isn't elitism.

[MasenkoHA]

Because sub elitism and dub elitism are equally toxic and harmful to the anime community, but the former often gets a free pass here because said fans are fans of the original version of the anime. Neither is ideal though, I hate seeing some dub fans say "I can't stand Goku sounding like a grandma" but at the same time "Fans of X dub are not fans of Dragon Ball" is no better, I'd argue both are destructive to the fandom. One is disrespecting a beloved voice actor, the other is showing contempt for well meaning people that may be willing to give the Japanese version a chance, but I believe the only way they can is if its recommended to them without resorting to insults of any kind, which I'd say calling someone "not actually a fan of Dragon Ball" qualifies as no matter how people try to rationalize it.

I didn't watch Breaking Bad for many years because although I'd heard near universally positive reviews some of the fans were needlessly elitist about it. They trashed other shows and movies I loved to build it up, hell when the show was coming to an end I heard some people saying "will life even be worth living with Breaking Bad over", which I found to be a tad extreme. Suffice to say at least 6 years after the fact when these people moved on from pedestalizing Breaking Bad I finally gave it a chance and loved it, but I would have watched it much sooner if I never heard the "all other shows writing sucks, Breaking Bad is a masterclass in writing" sentiment.

Idk, this just seems like pre-emptive matyrdom to me.

When has a moderator or an admin ever given an infraction to someone for not liking the Japanese version?

Most of this perceived sub fan on dub fan bullying amounts to a sub fan mocking something they don't like about the dub (music, dialog, acting) and a dub fan taking it as a personal attack. Dub fans haven't been silenced for saying they think Faulconer's music is superior to Kikuchi or that Masako Nozawa sounds like a grandma.

Even Adamant's argument "the only thing making dub fans call themselves Dragon Ball fans is Funimation didn't change the name to go with their reversioning" is more of an observation than anything and he's not entirely wrong. He didn't say "dub fans are dumb and like a stupid dumb mockery of my superior Japanese kung fu cartoon for 3rd graders and they should be bullied"

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

When it comes to the anime adaptation, the Japanese version is the source material. That's just a fact. The dub you enjoy watching is using footage that has a point of origin and acknowledging that isn't elitism.

Your still missing my point Adamant said if Funimation renamed Dragon Ball would dub fans still be fans of Dragon Ball and he thinks probably not. I understand what he was saying but I still think it's wrong to entertain the idea someone is not a fan of a property. Equally you might say if someone loves Robotech but knows nothing of the source material they aren't Macro's fans but I think it would be better if we kept those opinions to ourselves because its wrong to dismiss someone as not being a fan of something.

I notice also no one has listened to my point about Funimation's dub of GT. I'll explain why I think it's a terrible dub and why it couldn't be any different from the source material other than following the same story beats, but you'll never hear me say "people who like this are not fans of Dragon Ball GT", nor will I ever say "what if Funimation changed the name to 'Doom to Earth vs the light of hope'" because I don't want an excuse for saying fans of that dub are not fans of GT because me disliking it does not give me any sense of superiority over people who do.

Idk, this just seems like pre-emptive matyrdom to me.

How? I'm not playing the victim, I'm just trying to prevent any dub fans from being mocked for liking what they like.

When has a moderator or an admin ever given an infraction to someone for not liking the Japanese version?

They haven't, but as I've said before sub elitists have been wrongly given a free pass in the past for being rude to dub fans, which is not right. The same standards of respect and courtesy should be expected of them.

Most of this perceived sub fan on dub fan bullying amounts to a sub fan mocking something they don't like about the dub (music, dialog, acting) and a dub fan taking it as a personal attack. Dub fans haven't been silenced for saying they think Faulconer's music is superior to Kikuchi or that Masako Nozawa sounds like a grandma.

But mocking anything is wrong, period. Pointing out what you dislike about something is fine, but that's where the line should be drawn.

Even Adamant's argument "the only thing making dub fans call themselves Dragon Ball fans is Funimation didn't change the name to go with their reversioning" is more of an observation than anything and he's not entirely wrong. He didn't say "dub fans are dumb and like a stupid dumb mockery of my superior Japanese kung fu cartoon for 3rd graders and they should be bullied"

I still don't think the "what if Funimation changed the title" notion should be entertained. It didn't happen but let's be grateful it didn't as that would have just been used as another excuse for sub elitists to call others "not fans" of this series.

I know we're probably going around in circles now but I just don't think we should ever let any form of elitism ever rear its head in this fandom again. I'm going to fight it because it's caused too much unnecessary hostility in the past.

I'm going to be watching out for any and all attempts to stir discussions in that direction in future because as far as I'm concerned everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, and if we don't have anything nice to say along those lines better to say nothing at all.

[GhostEmperorX]

But mocking anything is wrong, period. Pointing out what you dislike about something is fine, but that's where the line should be drawn.

Over (a really short period of) time I've come to realize that this is the most sensible position to hold considering that it goes both ways, with the problems of one side mocked by the other.
I would however like to ask though, when it concerns a lot of plain unnecessary elements such as bad home video release decisions on either end, where would this line be drawn?

[Cure Dragon 255]

But mocking anything is wrong, period. Pointing out what you dislike about something is fine, but that's where the line should be drawn.

Over (a really short period of) time I've come to realize that this is the most sensible position to hold considering that it goes both ways, with the problems of one side mocked by the other.
I would however like to ask though, when it concerns a lot of plain unnecessary elements such as bad home video release decisions on either end, where would this line be drawn?

Mocking a corporation who makes shitty releases is not the same as mocking normal people.

[MasenkoHA]

But mocking anything is wrong, period. Pointing out what you dislike about something is fine, but that's where the line should be drawn.

Over (a really short period of) time I've come to realize that this is the most sensible position to hold considering that it goes both ways, with the problems of one side mocked by the other.
I would however like to ask though, when it concerns a lot of plain unnecessary elements such as bad home video release decisions on either end, where would this line be drawn?

Mocking a corporation who makes shitty releases is not the same as mocking normal people.

And again, no people or person have been mocked

Saying "the Funimation dub sounds like dog shit" =/= saying "People who like the Funimation dub are stupid"

Saying " Japanese Goku sounds like a grandma" =/= Saying " Fans of the Japanese version are weeaboos who don't shower"

[Cure Dragon 255]

Over (a really short period of) time I've come to realize that this is the most sensible position to hold considering that it goes both ways, with the problems of one side mocked by the other.
I would however like to ask though, when it concerns a lot of plain unnecessary elements such as bad home video release decisions on either end, where would this line be drawn?

Mocking a corporation who makes shitty releases is not the same as mocking normal people.

And again, no people or person have been mocked

Saying "the Funimation dub sounds like dog shit" =/= saying "People who like the Funimation dub are stupid"

Saying " Japanese Goku sounds like a grandma" =/= Saying " Fans of the Japanese version are weeaboos who don't shower"

You misunderstood, I was not talking about dub or sub fans, but rather there is nothing wrong about mocking a company for lacking releases, you missed the point.

[Majin Buu]

Your still missing my point Adamant said if Funimation renamed Dragon Ball would dub fans still be fans of Dragon Ball and he thinks probably not. I understand what he was saying but I still think it's wrong to entertain the idea someone is not a fan of a property. Equally you might say if someone loves Robotech but knows nothing of the source material they aren't Macro's fans but I think it would be better if we kept those opinions to ourselves because its wrong to dismiss someone as not being a fan of something.

I get that you don't like the argument he's making because it edges too close to "dub fans aren't real fans" for you. I personally think you're low-key putting words in his mouth there.

What I've been getting at in my responses to you is that I find it weird that you seem to view acknowledging the Japanese version as the anime version's source material as some statement of elitism and bullying when it's just stating something factual about the thing. You're projecting a value judgement onto something that's a neutral fact. I think you might be a bit too hyper-sensitive about this if you're taking issue with factual statements like this.

Like, I wouldn't put it past you to call me an elitist just for correctly pointing out that Dragon Ball is a Japanese franchise made by Japanese people.

I notice also no one has listened to my point about Funimation's dub of GT. I'll explain why I think it's a terrible dub and why it couldn't be any different from the source material other than following the same story beats, but you'll never hear me say "people who like this are not fans of Dragon Ball GT", nor will I ever say "what if Funimation changed the name to 'Doom to Earth vs the light of hope'" because I don't want an excuse for saying fans of that dub are not fans of GT because me disliking it does not give me any sense of superiority over people who do.

You've conceded that Funimation's version of the show is different enough that you're not getting the same experience the Japanese original is providing. You've acknowledged that they are not the same. Yet, you take issue with people saying that sub fans and Funimation dub fans are not fans of the same thing when that's simply a fact. It's like you want to have your cake and eat it too on this.

They haven't, but as I've said before sub elitists have been wrongly given a free pass in the past for being rude to dub fans, which is not right. The same standards of respect and courtesy should be expected of them.

1. Isn't it kinda dishonest to insinuate the mods are doing something you admit they aren't doing?

2. Considering how hyper-sensitive you are about this (and considering point 1), I'm skeptical about your claims of sub fan rudeness to dub fans.

[GhostEmperorX]

Mocking a corporation who makes shitty releases is not the same as mocking normal people.

Well yes, but I thought that "anything" as it relates to the following post:

a sub fan mocking something they don't like about the dub (music, dialog, acting) and a dub fan taking it as a personal attack.

...which then led to the following reply:

But mocking anything is wrong, period. Pointing out what you dislike about something is fine, but that's where the line should be drawn.

...would naturally include aspects such as these.

Hence the question of if the aforementioned elements counted.

[Cure Dragon 255]

To be honest, I would NOT say mocking Goku's voice is as innocent as Masenko Ha thinks it is, not only mocking fans of the original version BUT ALSO NOZAWA.

[MasenkoHA]

To be honest, I would NOT say mocking Goku's voice is as innocent as Masenko Ha thinks it is, not only mocking fans of the original version BUT ALSO NOZAWA.

I mean, if I talk about Nadolny's Gohan sounding like a chainsmoker or mock the Funimation's cast idea that forced raspy tough guy voice=acting, I can't get too defensive at Granny Goku comments. I can (rightfully and correctly) assume anyone who thinks Nozawa Goku sounds like a grandma has never actually heard Goku talk in Japanese. But to act like that fan is being a bully would be pretty damn hypocritical.

Once again the lesson here is not everyone is going to like what you like and don't take someone's derision or mockery of something you enjoy as a personal attack like they insulted your mother.