Why are the English dubisms far too ingrained into the fandom?

[Cure Dragon 255]

To be honest, I would NOT say mocking Goku's voice is as innocent as Masenko Ha thinks it is, not only mocking fans of the original version BUT ALSO NOZAWA.

I mean, if I talk about Nadolny's Gohan sounding like a chainsmoker or mock the Funimation's cast idea that forced raspy tough guy voice=acting, I can't get too defensive at Granny Goku comments. I can (rightfully and correctly) assume anyone who thinks Nozawa Goku sounds like a grandma has never actually heard Goku talk in Japanese. But to act like that fan is being a bully would be pretty damn hypocritical.

Once again the lesson here is not everyone is going to like what you like and don't take someone's derision or mockery of something you enjoy as a personal attack like they insulted your mother.

Why not just NOT enable bullying on either side then?

[MasenkoHA]

There would have be bullying happening in the first place for bullying to have been enabled. So there's that

[Cure Dragon 255]

There would have be bullying happening in the first place for bullying to have been enabled. So there's that

I think we CAN dislike the sub OR sub without the insults, its the insults that go too far, not just disliking or liking anything.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I get that you don't like the argument he's making because it edges too close to "dub fans aren't real fans" for you. I personally think you're low-key putting words in his mouth there.

Yes I think its flirting too much with belittling dub fans, and because I don't trust Adamant to be respectful of them given his history.

2. Considering how hyper-sensitive you are about this (and considering point 1), I'm skeptical about your claims of sub fan rudeness to dub fans.

Well, I didn't want to bring up this thread given how long ago it was, but I will do it so people understand my hesitation with anyone defending Adamant's words:

To be perfectly blunt, because it's extremely hard to explain this shit to your average American who's grown up in American culture without coming across as offensive anyway...

Normal people would never want to watch a dub. Dubs are produced for people who can't read (ie young kids), to want to watch a dub as an adult would make you come across as severely mentally handicapped, or dyslectic to extreme degrees. To actually argue that dubs are preferable to subtitles is essentially saying "I'm an adult, I can't read, and I'm proud of it, because reading is lame". You just... don't.

Picture you sitting on a bus stop/train/plane/whatever with a normal-looking guy beside you. He takes up a book, then turns to you and says "Excuse me, could you read for me? I'm not very good at reading." Would you think of this as perfectly acceptable practice? Would you think this was a man of normal intelligence?

Clear, patent, indisputable sub rudeness to dub fans.

And no an adult watching a dub is not, in any way comparable to asking someone on public transport to read a book for you. Conversely I see dub watching as supplementary to my enjoyment of the Japanese version. I can rewatch a show and be exposed to, in many cases another great voice cast, solid scripting, and lets not forget dubbing is a very technical skill because matching the mouth flaps is involved. It's an art in of itself.

Granted this was from a long ass time ago, and as I've said the jury is out on Adamant to prove that he is not capable of this anymore, but because he made them, and to my knowledge never repented I am going to remain wary of his intentions. This proves my point that sub elitists have gotten a free pass on these forums for their hostility towards dub fans, that was indefensibly wrong and no doubt contributed to the bad reputation Kanzenshuu gained, as nothing was said to him after making that post despite how harsh it was.

I don't care if someone likes a dub or not, I like some dubs, don't like others, but its sickening that this kind of behaviour was once tolerated here, so all that I ask is that anyone who was of that persuasion do their part to learn from their mistakes. I know I'm no mod but I hope that the admins here will take this constructive criticism on board because I want this site to be a peaceful outlet that welcomes any and all Dragon Ball fans with open arms. We can sing the praises of the Japanese version without trashing dubs and their fans, both can co-exist, and I'd argue any healthy anime fandom cannot exist without both.

What I've been getting at in my responses to you is that I find it weird that you seem to view acknowledging the Japanese version as the anime version's source material as some statement of elitism and bullying when it's just stating something factual about the thing. You're projecting a value judgement onto something that's a neutral fact. I think you might be a bit too hyper-sensitive about this if you're taking issue with factual statements like this.

As I've said there's no elitism in stating what the source material for the anime is, but I hope the above comments make me wary of Adamant, and if you are still reading I hope that you have changed your ways since 2012. I've most certainly changed since then and made my fair share of mistakes but I can respect someone acknowledging they were wrong, as I have done so.

Like, I wouldn't put it past you to call me an elitist just for correctly pointing out that Dragon Ball is a Japanese franchise made by Japanese people.

No I wouldn't, as I've said I have no problems with statements of facts, its the intention behind the words, not the words themselves I take issue with.

You've conceded that Funimation's version of the show is different enough that you're not getting the same experience the Japanese original is providing. You've acknowledged that they are not the same. Yet, you take issue with people saying that sub fans and Funimation dub fans are not fans of the same thing when that's simply a fact. It's like you want to have your cake and eat it too on this.

As I've said despite my harsh criticisms of Funimation's dub of GT I would never even entertain the idea of speaking on behalf of anyone who watches and/ or likes the dub and determining whether or not they are fans (doesn't matter if they claim to be fans of Dragon Ball GT or fans of Funimation's dub), which Adamant has done for other heavily altered dubs. Only the people who consume these versions of the show can say whether or not they are fans of the show or a reversioning of it. I will acknowledge how different Funi GT is but you will never hear me say "people who are fans of this dub are not fans of Dragon Ball GT" even in the hypothetical scenario he gave where the title is changed.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yeah, THAT is bullying, no ifs or buts about it. Dubs get a bad rap and treating people the way Adamant did is absolutely unnaceptable.

[Kaboom]

When a dub of something is as bluntly, enthusiastically, and unabashedly unfaithful as the old English Z dub(s) is, to the point where it can't even get the main character's personality right and loves to insert extra non-sequitur nonsense dialogue all over the place, and is only a small step or two away from being functionally a different show that just happens to use the same footage, like what Robotech is to Macross or the aforementioned Power Rangers example...

Then yeah, anyone who happens to exclusively be a fan of that heavily-altered version is just, by definition, not a fan of the same thing as everyone else who's focused on, or at least familiar with, the source material itself instead. It's not demeaning or belittling or "bullying" to point out that simple fact, it's just a fair, truthful assessment. I see nothing particularly condescending or hostile in anything Adamant said in this topic (dredging up decade-old posts notwithstanding). Some of y'all just seem to have sizable chips on your shoulders.

[Cure Dragon 255]

When a dub of something is as bluntly, enthusiastically, and unabashedly unfaithful as the old English Z dub(s) is, to the point where it can't even get the main character's personality right and loves to insert extra non-sequitur nonsense dialogue all over the place, and is only a small step or two away from being functionally a different show that just happens to use the same footage, like what Robotech is to Macross or the aforementioned Power Rangers example...

Then yeah, anyone who happens to exclusively be a fan of that heavily-altered version is just, by definition, not a fan of the same thing as everyone else who's focused on, or at least familiar with, the source material itself instead. It's not demeaning or belittling or "bullying" to point out that simple fact, it's just a fair, truthful assessment. I see nothing particularly condescending or hostile in anything Adamant said in this topic (dredging up decade-old posts notwithstanding). Some of y'all just seem to have sizable chips on your shoulders.

This is not what Adamant said, he didnt even say "Funimation's Dragon Ball" he said ALL DUBS, I know this is a culture shock since English dubs are not as respected as they are in Latin America, where MOST OF EVERYTHING gets dubbed and most certainly a significant crowd watches even Oscar worthy movies dubbed, with dubbing that is actually worth it. In Latin America dubbing is a very respected and beloved praise. Adamant saying this and getting cheered on is extremely sad.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Again stating the fact that something is different is not the same thing as deciding on someone's behalf whether or not they are a fan. In my discussions with Dragon Ball fans over the years I've said the former, but not the latter with my example of Funimation's dub of GT, Adamant has said both in this very thread.

As I've also mentioned I didn't want to bring up that old post, but I felt I had to because everyone kept ignoring the distinction I was making because that's the very reason I can't trust Adamant to mean well when he says these things.

In Latin America dubbing is a very respected and beloved praise. Adamant saying this and getting cheered on is extremely sad.

Exactly, Adamant has said in the past dubbing is looked down on as being for people of lesser intelligence or kids in Norway, and even then I'm skeptical because sangofe is Norwegian and is always respectful towards dubs and dub fans. In any cases no one can speak for the world based on their own country as perceptions differ from culture to culture.

Hell, most Irish adults I know, at least people 50+ or even 40+ think all animation in general is made exclusively for kids, which is an argument I've fought against all my life (frustratingly enough I've also never heard even 1 good argument for such blanket statements). I'm hopeful that things will change though, as it is more common for people of my generation who would be in their 30s now to still like The Simpsons, Adventure Time and Rick & Morty.

[Cure Dragon 255]

To be fair to Kanzenshuu, the forum has SIGNIFICANTLY softened up to dubs and even Funimation dubs, the only hate is rightfully towards FuniCrunchyroll's awful home releases.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

To be fair to Kanzenshuu, the forum has SIGNIFICANTLY softened up to dubs and even Funimation dubs, the only hate is rightfully towards FuniCrunchyroll's awful home releases.

It has, and I am grateful for that. I believe that has been thanks to the activity of yourself, 90sDBZ, other Ocean dub fans like Robo4900, NitroEX, SX10 and Arian, Tian and TheRed259's dub threads and sangofe campaigning for more dubs.

VegettoEX even went to see Funimation's dub of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan in theatres, despite previously saying he was never going to watch the dub other than to spot check.

I don't expect everyone to like dubs, but I hope with everything I've said here people can understand where I'm coming from as given his history Adamant's initial comment just seems like a slippery slope I don't want this forum to fall back down after all the positive change that's been made.

I would like to see more progress towards this being a community where sub and dub fans can respectfully interact with one another, not less or any steps backwards no matter how small.

[Vegard Aune]

Exactly, Adamant has said in the past dubbing is looked down on as being for people of lesser intelligence or kids in Norway, and even then I'm skeptical because sangofe is Norwegian and is always respectful towards dubs and dub fans. In any cases no one can speak for the world based on their own country as perceptions differ from culture to culture.

It is true that dubs in Norway are mostly only ever done for kids' fare and I tend to avoid them because their quality tends to be, uh... somewhat middling. But yeah, that is specifically a Norway thing. We generally have to get used to reading subtitles from a reasonably young age if we want to engage with literally anything aimed at people older than nine, but obviously that is not how it is everywhere. Doesn't France and Spain, for example, essentially dub everything, and leave their dubbed audio track the default option everywhere? I feel like it's easy to get a somewhat skewed perspective of how easy or difficult it is to actively engage with a show while reading subtitles if you've literally always done that. Like, to me it's second nature, and hearing people talk about how distracting it can be sounds utterly alien. But I can acknowledge that the reason why it comes so naturally to me is because I've been doing it pretty much for as long as I could read. Which... I mean, even putting dubs specifically aside, is a thing kids in English-speaking countries would be less likely to have to contend with when the overwhelming majority of the content they get was literally made in English from the get-go.

...So yeah. "Just learn to read subtitles!" is easier said than done, and it is rather dependent on where one is even from.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I don't have a problem reading subtitles, although I don't blame people who are not entirely comfortable with it and there are people with visual impairments who do genuinely struggle with it whom we should empatize with. There is thusly another good argument to be made for dubs as an accessibility thing and means of lowering the barrier to entry.

Of course that also means it's a dubbing companies responsibility to recreate the same show in a different language. As is the case with Dragon Ball sometimes this has been achieved (prine example being the Pioneer movie dubs), other times it hasn't, but nonetheless along these lines there is valid reason for producing an alternate language track.

Non-English programming is very much a niche thing in Ireland though because the vast majority of Irish people speak English as their first language. Even anime itself is rather obscure here, although arguably less so in Dublin because of the population density and diversity of people from various countries that moved there.

I didn't give anything with subtitles a proper chance until my mid-20s when Super was airing on Fuji TV and we were all watching it by other means, because I wanted new Dragon Ball and wasn't going to wait for a dub, so I checked it out in Japanese and subsequently watched all the older material subbed for the first time.

No need for anyone to tell me I was "not a fan of Dragon Ball", I took it upon myself to watch the original version as I liked the performances I heard in Super, because, if I liked that why not check out the cast in their prime? Nothing can hold a candle to the work of Masako Nozawa, Ryo Horikawa, Ryusei Nakao, Mayumi Tanaka, Joji Yanami, Hiromi Tsuru in the 1986-1997 original run, but their work on the revival era content isn't bad either.

I do think the Dragon Ball fandom needs to move on from the divisive scourge that is the age old dub vs sub controversy. Some people might want to keep it going, but seriously its time to let it die and treat the elitism with the disdain that's long overdue, as it will never do any good for our community, quite the contrary. Why silence and dismiss fans of one when we can celebrate the existence of both and what they each bring to the table? The anime community worldwide would not have developed as it has if only one option was ever available, and for that reason I'll always be grateful all versions of the shows and movies I love exist.

In any case since no one has adequately countered this point I made and anytime they try they only take the first half into consideration I would say the sub elitism apologists have lost:

Again stating the fact that something is different is not the same thing as deciding on someone's behalf whether or not they are a fan. In my discussions with Dragon Ball fans over the years I've said the former, but not the latter with my example of Funimation's dub of GT

[MasenkoHA]

I sure do hate when those snobby fruit elitist tell me the carrot I'm eating is a vegetable.

[JulieYBM]

I sure do hate when those snobby fruit elitist tell me the carrot I'm eating is a vegetable.

This is cishet people when queer people call them cishet.

I'm sorry, but the fruit analogy was perfect.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I sure do hate when those snobby fruit elitist tell me the carrot I'm eating is a vegetable.

I'm going to assume this is a joke, but assuming it's the kind of humour that has an element of truth to it - Again this is missing the point entirely.

I'll say it again making a statement of fact is not the same thing as deciding on someone else's behalf whether or not they are a fan of whatever.

A better analogy would be within the world of music. Take a much maligned band like Coldplay, who yes are insanely popular but also the subject of scathing criticisms, not just for their work but for anyone that listens to them.

Many a time have I heard people say artists like Coldplay are "music for people who don't like music". That is making a claim to know what kind of fan the person is. Now the watered down version of it would be that people who listen to Coldplay, U2 or The Script don't seek out music not heard on Pop radio, which again is a generalisation and one that those bands detractors use out of an assumed sense of superiority because they listen to more artsy music like Radiohead, The Flaming Lips, Bjork, etc.

I myself am a fan of Coldplay, but I also listen to Kate Bush, David Bowie, Leonard Cohen, Elliott Smith, Arcade Fire, The Pains of Being Pure at Heart, Dexys Midnight Runners, Blur, Cocteau Twins, My Bloody Valentine, The Stone Roses, Guns n Roses, Public Enemy, Death Grips and more artists like those, as well as much commercial pop others would look down their nose on. So no, liking any mega popular band or artist who writes radio-friendly "safe" music with the widest possible audience in mind does not make me someone who "doesn't like music". I have a very, very broad taste in music, and unlike many don't think disliking pop is a prerequisite for liking other kinds of music.

By the same token no one has the right to say someone is "not a fan of X because they like Y".

I'll put it another way by giving you all two hypothetical statements:

Statement A : "Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT is a different show because of the drastically altered tone."

Statement B : "Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT is a different show to the Japanese version of GT and therefore if you prefer the former to the latter you are not a fan of the latter because they are drastically different."

The narrative from those who have responded to me in this thread is that the point of Statement A and Statement B is the same and I'm being a hypocrite for saying acknowledging differences is elitism. No, they are not making the same point, Statement A is making a single point, Statement B makes two points merged into one.

Point of Statement A : These two products are drastically different and the same in name-only.

Point of Statement B : These two products are drastically different and therefore anyone who prefers the heavily altered version is not a fan of the original.

I have put in bold and underlined where Statement B goes the extra mile and becomes more passive aggressive. Anyone who is not seeing the difference is not reading my posts thoroughly, because deny it all you like it's still there.

As critical as I am of Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT you will only ever hear me make Statement A, not Statement B, because unlike some people I don't pass judgement on whether or not someone else can be called a fan of something, like the original Japanese version, that's for them to decide for themselves.

I'm sorry, but the fruit analogy was perfect.

Nope, it disregards my point entirely, as has been the case for most people who have responded to me, or at best they only took half my point into consideration.

Although maybe your trying to be ironic because unlike a Tomato there is no debate over whether a Carrott is a fruit or vegetable, everyone accepts its the latter.

Again, Statement A ≠ Statement B.

[JulieYBM]

I'm sorry, but the fruit analogy was perfect.

Nope, it disregards my point entirely, as has been the case for most people who have responded to me, or at best they only took half my point into consideration.

Although maybe your trying to be ironic because unlike a Tomato there is no debate over whether a Carrott is a fruit or vegetable, everyone accepts its the latter.

Again, Statement A ≠ Statement B.

No, I'm saying the majority (dub viewers/cishet people) like to tell the minority (sub viewers/queer people/fruity people) that they're oppressing them by pointing out that they are, in fact, doing the thing that they're doing.

That being said, I don't really care, mostly because I think people are making a bigger deal out of things than they need to be the winner.

Also, I just wanted to point out the funny fruity analogy, because I'm fruity.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I sure do hate when those snobby fruit elitist tell me the carrot I'm eating is a vegetable.

You are now deflecting outright, Adamant outright went with "Dub people are mentally deficient." We already made clear its not the calling things by their name that bothers us.

EDIT: Also I love you Julie, but you are equating homophobic cis het people with people who watch dubs. Again, what happens if a LGBT person was a dub person? What if A LOT of them watched dubs? What if MILLIONS of them did. Are they evil opressors?

I know its REALLY HARD to divorce dubs from the "FAULCONER FUCK YEAH" crowd that is associated with incels and toxic masculinity, but CMON.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I'm sorry, but the fruit analogy was perfect.

Nope, it disregards my point entirely, as has been the case for most people who have responded to me, or at best they only took half my point into consideration.

Although maybe your trying to be ironic because unlike a Tomato there is no debate over whether a Carrott is a fruit or vegetable, everyone accepts its the latter.

Again, Statement A ≠ Statement B.

No, I'm saying the majority (dub viewers/cishet people) like to tell the minority (sub viewers/queer people/fruity people) that they're oppressing them by pointing out that they are, in fact, doing the thing that they're doing.

That being said, I don't really care, mostly because I think people are making a bigger deal out of things than they need to be the winner.

Also, I just wanted to point out the funny fruity analogy, because I'm fruity.

I know that dub elitists exist too, and I utterly condemn some of the things I've heard said about Masako Nozawa's Goku, but sub elitists have often been given a get out of jail free card (as is the case with the 12-year old post from Adamant that no mods called him out on) by virtue of promoting the Japanese version, but that's still no justification for such hostility. Likewise I've been on music forums where the snobs were not in any way disciplined for their rudeness towards people on the basis that they were encouraging them (through insults and such) to broaden their horizons and not limit their tastes to the Westlifes, Katy Perrys, Kelly Clarksons, Britney Spears, X Factor winners or whatever else was in the charts at the time.

[JulieYBM]

Nope, it disregards my point entirely, as has been the case for most people who have responded to me, or at best they only took half my point into consideration.

Although maybe your trying to be ironic because unlike a Tomato there is no debate over whether a Carrott is a fruit or vegetable, everyone accepts its the latter.

Again, Statement A ≠ Statement B.

No, I'm saying the majority (dub viewers/cishet people) like to tell the minority (sub viewers/queer people/fruity people) that they're oppressing them by pointing out that they are, in fact, doing the thing that they're doing.

That being said, I don't really care, mostly because I think people are making a bigger deal out of things than they need to be the winner.

Also, I just wanted to point out the funny fruity analogy, because I'm fruity.

I know that dub elitists exist too, and I utterly condemn some of the things I've heard said about Masako Nozawa's Goku, but sub elitists have often been given a get out of jail free card (as is the case with the 12-year old post from Adamant that no mods called him out on) by virtue of promoting the Japanese version, but that's still no justification for such hostility. Likewise I've been on music forums where the snobs were not in any way disciplined for their rudeness towards people on the basis that they were encouraging them (through insults and such) to broaden their horizons and not limit their tastes to the Westlifes, Katy Perrys, Britney Spears, X Factor or whatever else was in the charts at the time.

I'm not going to relitigate decades of drama, but I am going to remind everyone that you can't get beaten up and your lunch money stolen if you just don't engage with the dipshit calling you a retard—there's a report button for that, and if the moderators on said forum don't do shit about it, leave said forum. If a dub is your thing, go enjoy your thing. Who cares what a bunch of people who don't like it think? Your fandom shouldn't be a competition, it should be an expression of your passion.

(I've got a few people posting in this thread on my block list, so I'm definitely trying to follow my own advice here lulz)

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm sorry, but the fruit analogy was perfect.

Nope, it disregards my point entirely, as has been the case for most people who have responded to me, or at best they only took half my point into consideration.

Although maybe your trying to be ironic because unlike a Tomato there is no debate over whether a Carrott is a fruit or vegetable, everyone accepts its the latter.

Again, Statement A ≠ Statement B.

No, I'm saying the majority (dub viewers/cishet people) like to tell the minority (sub viewers/queer people/fruity people) that they're oppressing them by pointing out that they are, in fact, doing the thing that they're doing.

That being said, I don't really care, mostly because I think people are making a bigger deal out of things than they need to be the winner.

Also, I just wanted to point out the funny fruity analogy, because I'm fruity.

Another thing, you seem to equate "The Majority" with "Oppressors". I know cis het white people have oppressed people, but this way of thinking makes it seem like "Once LGBT people are the majority THEY will be the evil oppressors" as it is NUMBERS and not the fact that a group opresses the other that makes them oppressors.