Sub elitism is every bit as toxic as the dub equivalent and should be treated with the same scrutiny

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

As I feel the war over how myself and Adamant each come across derailed TechExpert2021's thread I thought that issue needed a separate topic for those who wish to continue discussing it or have anything new to bring to the table.

Again I'll point you towards the main points I was making. Hope people can read through them and see where I'm coming from whenever I go out of my way to stand up to anyone that shows even the slightest sub elitist tendencies.

Making a statement of fact is not the same thing as deciding on someone else's behalf whether or not they are a fan of whatever.

Statement A : "Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT is a different show because of the drastically altered tone."

Statement B : "Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT is a different show to the Japanese version of GT and therefore if you prefer the former to the latter you are not a fan of the latter because they are drastically different."

The narrative from those who have responded to me in this thread is that the point of Statement A and Statement B is the same and I'm being a hypocrite for saying acknowledging differences is elitism. No, they are not making the same point, Statement A is making a single point, Statement B makes two points merged into one.

Point of Statement A : These two products are drastically different and the same in name-only.

Point of Statement B : These two products are drastically different and therefore anyone who prefers the heavily altered version is not a fan of the original.

Statement A ≠ Statement B.

[Majin Buu]

I'm not going to respond to your last response to me from that thread since everyone else has thoroughly said what I would have said in some form (and in some cases repeated what I and others already said). What I will say is....

After seeing everything that's happened since then, I don't think this situation was ever an issue of sub elitism, but rather, a hyper-sensitive dub fan making false accusations of sub elitism as an excuse to tone police a sub fan he holds a grudge against- and I'm comfortable calling it that considering you went to the trouble of digging up a 12 year old post of his that turns out you were taking out of context to begin with- because said sub fan made a factual observation that you keep blowing out of proportion because you keep projecting elitist sentiments onto it for some weird reason.

As for that attempt at dirt digging (seriously dude, WTF?), Vegard pretty much confirmed in the other thread that you were taking that statement out of context, something Adamant himself said, but just looking at the source thread itself, it's easy to see reading just the few posts preceding his that he was explaining what the average person's perception is towards dubs in Norway- the country he's from, because he was specifically asked that by the person he was responding to (he put it very bluntly, but I take it as him being realistic in terms of what said average person is probably thinking). You're either bad at reading comprehension or you're just too hyper-sensitive about this issue.

Frankly, your actions feel like "cry-bully" behavior to me. For someone who claims to want to get past the dub vs. sub thing, it seems like you were the one being antagonistic here (and it really doesn't help that you managed to convince other people who clearly also didn't understand what was happening).

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I don't think this situation was ever an issue of sub elitism, but rather, a hyper-sensitive dub fan making false accusations of sub elitism as an excuse to tone police a sub fan he holds a grudge against- and I'm comfortable calling it that considering you went to the trouble of digging up a 12 year old post of his that turns out you were taking out of context to begin with- because said sub fan made a factual observation that you keep blowing out of proportion because you keep projecting elitist sentiments onto it for some weird reason.

I don't hold a grudge against Adamant, I have a grudge against the anti-dub stance this site has historically taken, which has done far more harm than good. I get the purpose of this site is to promote the Japanese version but doing it at the expense of all international versions that have introduced people to this series by not policing hostility towards those dubs and their fans, and if anything encouraging it is wrong. I am grateful attitudes have softened since, but I am very wary of that slippery slope I mentioned because if it rears its head we know the mods won't do anything about it which they should because respect among fans has to go both ways.

As for that attempt at dirt digging (seriously dude, WTF?), Vegard pretty much confirmed in the other thread that you were taking that statement out of context, something Adamant himself said, but just looking at the source thread itself, it's easy to see reading just the few posts preceding his that he was explaining what the average person's perception is towards dubs in Norway- the country he's from, because he was specifically asked that by the person he was responding to. You're either bad at reading comprehension or you're just too hyper-sensitive about this issue.

I have said I was wrong to dig up Adamant's ancient posts, but I only did it because I couldn't believe people thought I was crazy to be skeptical of his intentions. Funimation didn't rename Dragon Ball so why would he even entertain that hypothetical to begin with? Just seemed like imagining a world where he had an excuse to invalidate fans of that dub for "not liking Dragon Ball".

I have no difficulty with reading, I knew Adamant was telling people how dubs are perceived in Norway but that doesn't excuse his scathing remarks about anyone over the age of 10 who watches dubs. And yes this was 12 years ago, and Cure Dragon 255 gave Adamant a chance to admit he was wrong only for him to divert attention away from this offer to repent. Neither me, nor Cure Dragon 255 was ignoring his point about dubs not being respected in Norway, we are both aware its not, all we were asking was for him to accept he was wrong to treat fans of dubs so callously.

For someone who claims to want to get past the dub vs. sub thing, it seems like you were the one being antagonistic here (and it really doesn't help that you managed to convince other people who clearly also didn't understand what was happening).

As I've said there's no misunderstanding on my part, it's not what Adamant was saying, it was how he said it, and until he and other fans change their ways the dub vs sub debate is never going to go away, in Dragon Ball or in any other anime community.

I take it some people want to undermine dubs to the extent they die out, but that is never going to happen, nor should it, because dubs are a gateway for people to get into anime, and they are generally much more faithful nowadays so why not embrace their existence and how beneficial they are to the industry. People don't have to like dubs, I don't like all of them (as I've said I can't bring myself to enjoy Funimation's GT although I've tried several times and watched in full once with Menza and once with Tokunaga, but neither worked) but I fail to see how the fact they've made anime so much more accessible could be anything but a good thing.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't hold a grudge against Adamant, I have a grudge against the anti-dub stance this site has historically taken,
which has done far more harm than good. I get the purpose of this site is to promote the Japanese version but doing it at the expense of all international versions that have introduced people to this series by not policing hostility towards those dubs and their fans, and if anything encouraging it is wrong

Which isn't even true, unless you think the Funimation dub is the only dub in the world. The site focuses on the Japanese version but people on here have praised the Latin American Spanish dub for being a proper dub. Including VegettoEX himself

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/features/the ... -showdown/


For whatever reason you seem to confuse people being critical of a specific dub for making heavy alterations to people being anti-dub in general.

.

I am grateful attitudes have softened since, but I am very wary of that slippery slope I mentioned because if it rears its head we know the mods won't do anything about it which they should because respect among fans has to go both ways.

You keep saying this but the best example you could pull was from 12 years ago and was already explained to you that you took way out of context. Where is this "mods let dub fan bullying slide" of which you speak? And if you have to pull from something older than like, I dunno, 3 years, it's probably not something worth whining about.

I have said I was wrong to dig up Adamant's ancient posts, but I only did it because I couldn't believe people thought I was crazy to be skeptical of his intentions. Funimation didn't rename Dragon Ball so why would he even entertain that hypothetical to begin with? Just seemed like imagining a world where he had an excuse to invalidate fans of that dub for "not liking Dragon Ball".

Because he was responding to your post positing that a hardcore dub fan can be a hardcore fan of Dragon Ball even if they only watch Funimation's dub. He (again correctly) pointed out that if Funimation renamed the show fans of their dub (and only their dub) would just call themselves fans of that show. He didn't pull this hypothetical out of nowhere.

Why do you keep ignoring context?

I have no difficulty with reading, I knew Adamant was telling people how dubs are perceived in Norway but that doesn't excuse his scathing remarks about anyone over the age of 10 who watches dubs. And yes this was 12 years ago, and Cure Dragon 255 gave Adamant a chance to admit he was wrong only for him to divert attention away from this offer to repent. Neither me, nor Cure Dragon 255 was ignoring his point about dubs not being respected in Norway, we are both aware its not, all we were asking was for him to accept he was wrong to treat fans of dubs so callously.

You both took it personal when Adamant explained how dubbing is perceived in Norway, despite neither of you living in Norway. And want an apology from a post he made 12 years ago that wasn't even directed at either of you and was just explaining how dubbing was viewed in his home country.

I take it some people want to undermine dubs to the extent they die out, but that is never going to happen, nor should it, because dubs are a gateway for people to get into anime, and they are generally much more faithful nowadays so why not embrace their existence and how beneficial they are to the industry. People don't have to like dubs, I don't like all of them (as I've said I can't bring myself to enjoy Funimation's GT although I've tried several times and watched in full once with Menza and once with Tokunaga, but neither worked) but I fail to see how the fact they've made anime so much more accessible could be anything but a good thing.

One more time

Critical of the Funimation dub=/= Bullying dub fans


Critical of the Funimation dub=/= Anti the practice of dubbing in general

[Tian]

I understand your posture and all, but please give the guy some break.

I know what he said something twelve years ago was worth of some warning from the mods but it wasn't far from other's opinions about dubs in his country.

Besides, it's not like he is the only one who isn't that fond of the FUNimation dub. There many others (including me) who aren't fond of it as well and have no fear to voice our disagreement. Although, I admit that they have improved with Kai.

I can assure you that while the FUNimation dub and the French AB dub have some hate, other dubs like the LATAM Spanish dub, Brazilian Portuguese dub and the German dub are praised and recognized here.

I'd rather focus on talking about dubs with other fans here rather than keep exposing someone for a negative comment about dubs he said twelve years ago.

[Kaboom]

One more time

Critical of the Funimation dub=/= Bullying dub fans

Critical of the Funimation dub=/= Anti the practice of dubbing in general

Hear, hear. That's pretty much the deal.

And I don't think we need an entire thread for whatever weird victim-complex shenanigans are going on here.