Should the official subtitles have translated Kami-sama

[Cure Dragon 255]

...you silly kids really need to be a bit more aware of what the general accessability and quality of fansubs in the late 90s actually was before talking out of your asses about what your "weeb" boogeymen would and wouldn't be interested in.

The only thing I will concede here is that early 90's fansubs WERENT that weaboo-ish, because they were made by translators that translated Japanese work, and not "Anime Fans". Anime Fans DONT get that words need to be translated and meanings have to be made clear and not obscured by randomly deciding their own meaning. So 90's DB subs probably werent THAT weaboo ish...

But Steve Simmons famously decided some words didnt need to be translated and I dont mean any term original to Dragon Ball, I mean terms like "Cram School" get the weaboo stick just cuz. And he was a former fansubber so god knows how his fansubs looked.

And I am 34 YEARS OLD I AM NOT A KID LOL.

[MasenkoHA]

The only thing I will concede here is that early 90's fansubs WERENT that weaboo-ish, because they were made by translators that translated Japanese work, and not "Anime Fans".

Fansubs are more likely to be translated by anime fans of said series (it's literally in the name). For official licensed subtitles you get exceptions like Steve Simmons (who was probably hired by Funimation because he was a fan) but for the most part you're more likely to get "professional translators" who don't necessarily have an attachment to the series they're working on like Rika Takahashi
.

But Steve Simmons famously decided some words didnt need to be translated and I dont mean any term original to Dragon Ball, I mean terms like "Cram School" get the weaboo stick just cuz. And he was a former fansubber so god knows how his fansubs looked.

The just cuz is likely because Juku Schools have different connotations than Cram School in America. Cram schools in the U.S usually get associated with last minute ACT/SAT prep.

Sure, he probably could have just translated it but it's not "because weeb lolz'

Conversely, you have Steve Simmons translating Mazoku as "Demon Clansman" where Clyde Mandelin left it as, possibly beause he thought Mazoku was too uniquely Japanese to change or something. People way overexaggerate about Simmons being too literal or not adapting enough.

[Adamant]

I'm 32

I am 34 YEARS OLD

Right, so 7 and 9 years old respectively when these DVDs were released.

[Cure Dragon 255]

The only thing I will concede here is that early 90's fansubs WERENT that weaboo-ish, because they were made by translators that translated Japanese work, and not "Anime Fans".

Fansubs are more likely to be translated by anime fans of said series (it's literally in the name). For official licensed subtitles you get exceptions like Steve Simmons (who was probably hired by Funimation because he was a fan) but for the most part you're more likely to get "professional translators" who don't necessarily have an attachment to the series they're working on like Rika Takahashi
.

But Steve Simmons famously decided some words didnt need to be translated and I dont mean any term original to Dragon Ball, I mean terms like "Cram School" get the weaboo stick just cuz. And he was a former fansubber so god knows how his fansubs looked.

The just cuz is likely because Juku Schools have different connotations than Cram School in America. Cram schools in the U.S usually get associated with last minute ACT/SAT prep.

Sure, he probably could have just translated it but it's not "because weeb lolz'

Conversely, you have Steve Simmons translating Mazoku as "Demon Clansman" where Clyde Mandelin left it as, possibly beause he thought Mazoku was too uniquely Japanese to change or something. People way overexaggerate about Simmons being too literal or not adapting enough.

I am so glad to hear that, no really! I am glad to be humbled by facts, and that I was wrong because I am glad to learn.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm 32

I am 34 YEARS OLD

Right, so 7 and 9 years old respectively when these DVDs were released.

I am not objecting but wow DVD's existed in 1999...

[MasenkoHA]

I'm 32

I am 34 YEARS OLD

Right, so 7 and 9 years old respectively when these DVDs were released.

I am not objecting but wow DVD's existed in 1999...

DVDs been a thing since 96. The Pioneer DVDs for the Z movies came out in 1998

[Hellspawn28]

I am not objecting but wow DVD's existed in 1999...

They did and I remember not many people had a DVD player yet because they were super pricey. Many people were still watching movies on VHS in 1999-2000. It wasn't until 2001, DVD players outsold VCRs for the first time in the United States.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

DVDs weren't even a thing in my house until 2005, so I'm well aware there was a time when it was not so easy to obtain subbed Dragon Ball episodes or have quick access to the entire series with Simmons and Mandelin's subs.

[JulieYBM]

I remember the old VHS fansub days. Those were so fascinating, you'd never know what you were going to be watching next. Heck, I managed to catch the later films, and had my mind blown seeing the Janemba film years before FUNimation released it. It was a lot of fun!

[Majin Buu]

I remember the old VHS fansub days. Those were so fascinating, you'd never know what you were going to be watching next. Heck, I managed to catch the later films, and had my mind blown seeing the Janemba film years before FUNimation released it. It was a lot of fun!

You jogged my memory- An old, bad quality fansub of Movie 12 I found online (it might have been Anime Labs based on the look of the subs) in my final month or two of high school (so mid 2004) was the first movie I saw in Japanese, not Funimation's release of Movie 7 like I've said before (we actually got that DVD a year or two later). I specifically remember being inspired to seek it out because Gogeta was in Budokai 3.

I don't recall any egregious translations like what Anime Labs was known for though.

[JulieYBM]

I remember the old VHS fansub days. Those were so fascinating, you'd never know what you were going to be watching next. Heck, I managed to catch the later films, and had my mind blown seeing the Janemba film years before FUNimation released it. It was a lot of fun!

You jogged my memory- An old, bad quality fansub of Movie 12 I found online (it might have been Anime Labs based on the look of the subs) in my final month or two of high school (so mid 2004) was the first movie I saw in Japanese, not Funimation's release of Movie 7 like I've said before (we actually got that DVD a year or two later). I specifically remember being inspired to seek it out because Gogeta was in Budokai 3.

My next door neighbor had a friend who had a VHS tape with the first two Broli films, the Bojack film, and the Janemba film. It was a really surreal experience, because up to their point I think I'd only managed to download the episode where Trunks fights Idasa, and even then it was a shitty .rm file from off of Napster in the late 1990s.

Shit, we had dial up, so I didn't even download the full episode.

[TheGreatness25]

I think that using "God" could have caused a lot of unnecessary backlash. There are a lot of people who would have been offended and honestly, why bother doing it? I know that today, a lot of people wouldn't care to offend anyone who firmly held their religious beliefs, but why make that stand with a cartoon? I think it's easier to just call him "Kami." I even default to "Kami" myself because even though I'm not religious, I know what the traditional idea of God is and changing that up to be an alien standing on a floating tower kind of taints the whole other-worldly idea of it for me.

I'm much, much, much more intrigued by Steve Simmons's use of "Yamma" for Enma.

[JulieYBM]

I think that it is important to offend people who are offended by gods outside of their own, just as I think that it is important for art to be willing to be used for a political message that pushes acceptance and open-mindedness. I do not subscribe to any religions, but if the manner in which you practice your religion means that the mere basic concept of a god other than your own—or a god depicted as anything less than the pedastool you put them on—is 'not allowed', then it's important to push back against that. As someone whose entire existence is offensive to the same type of religious person who would deny a silly little cartoon the ability to have some green alien guy as its god character, I think it's important to ignore bigots and busybodies.

Like...why are they offended in the first place? How does it harm them? Is the mere existence of god being a green loser slug dweeb going to beat them up and steal their lunch money? We all have real problems to be worrying about.

Talk about déjà vu. This is the sort of thing we were all talking about twenty years ago.

[Gaffer Tape]

Who is this Curtis Hoffman.

I believe he's the guy that did the initial English fan-translations of the manga way back before Dragon Ball was a thing in America and the source of a couple fan terms (I think "Mystic Gohan" comes from him).

Curtis Hoffmann is known for his summaries of Dragon Ball (particularly his volume-by-volume summaries of the manga, but he also did other aspects of the franchise too). They were very well known back in the day, and a lot of people's introduction to the series. And, yes, a lot of his shorthand/idiosyncrasies/mistakes did persist in the fandom for quite a long time (such as blonde Lunch being referred to as Kushami and Karin being referred to as Senpyou).

[Majin Buu]

Curtis Hoffmann is known for his summaries of Dragon Ball (particularly his volume-by-volume summaries of the manga, but he also did other aspects of the franchise too). They were very well known back in the day, and a lot of people's introduction to the series. And, yes, a lot of his shorthand/idiosyncrasies/mistakes did persist in the fandom for quite a long time (such as blonde Lunch being referred to as Kushami and Karin being referred to as Senpyou).

Thanks for clarifying Gaffer, I only knew of Hoffmann by reputation.

Wasn't he also the source of "Kid Buu"? I wasn't sure enough about that one to mention it but I'd heard that too.

[Hellspawn28]

I do like the name Kami more than just simply God. It sounds more interesting to me. Not to mention, hearing the word "Kami" as a kid got me interested with Japanese mythology as a hole.

[Adamant]

I'm much, much, much more intrigued by Steve Simmons's use of "Yamma" for Enma.

He's explained that, there's a scene where an oni has a "Yama" tag on his shirt.
"King Yama" is also the common English name for the deity in question.


Also, I really don't think there was all that much overlap between the adult Dragonball fanbase circa 1999 and the kind of people that would get offended at seeing God in subtitles.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Was there ever a significant backlash from Yu-Gi-Oh fans over the "God" term? Because it doesn't only categorise the three most powerful cards as Gods it names them after dieties Egyptians worshipped such as Osiris (Japanese only, dub name is Slifer) and Ra. In fact the one that's probably most peoples favourite is not named after an actual God as far as I know (Obelisk). I'm honestly kinda surprised 4Kids didn't try to censor it and call them "The Egyptian King Cards". Even the trading card game has many cases of toning down any religious symbolism.

If any shounen anime or manga posed the risk of offending people I would think it would have been Yu-Gi-Oh, not Dragon Ball. Now I'm sure a minority may have taken offence, but I've never seen any cases of it either online or in person. I even played the card game with my cousin who was openly Catholic as a kid and he never took offence to Ra being constantly referred to as the most powerful God card.

[MasenkoHA]

Was there ever a significant backlash from Yu-Gi-Oh fans over the "God" term? Because it doesn't only categorise the three most powerful cards as Gods it names them after dieties Egyptians worshipped such as Osiris (Japanese only, dub name is Slifer) and Ra. In fact the one that's probably most peoples favourite is not named after an actual God as far as I know (Obelisk). I'm honestly kinda surprised 4Kids didn't try to censor it and call them "The Egyptian King Cards". Even the trading card game has many cases of toning down any religious symbolism.

Like Disney's Hercules (both the movie and subsequent interquel tv series) using the word Gods (plural) was probably okay because it's understood it's rooted in a mythology. Even though only one of the 3 God Cards is named after an actual God (would have been 2 if 4kids didn't stupidly rename Osiris to Slifer) plus the 4kids funded Yugioh movie had Anubis as a bad guy.

Funimation (and other international dub licensees where Abrahamic religions are common like Cloverway for the LatAM dub) was never going to get away with a singular character not directly based in any well known mythology being called God. Because God (as in the name not just Egyptian God of Blank) as a name is reserved to the Judeo-Christian God. Though they should have stuck to Kami being his title, like the Pioneer dub of Dead Zone had him saying he "Ascended to the throne of Kami" the whole his name is Kami and he's the guardian of the earth just creates plot holes if you think about it too hard.


Of course that only applies to dubs. No reason he shouldn't be identified as God in the subtitles aimed at an older audience like Adamant said.

[Caulifor]

As a professional translator myself, I would 100% use "God" for this character nowadays. The goal of a translation is to adapt the work so that the target audience experiences it as closely as possible to the original audience. For the Japanese audience, "Kami-sama" simply means "God." It's not an unknown mystical term that provokes wonder; the character is just God (of Earth), and in the Dragon Ball universe, being God is simply a job one can apply for, without any commentary on existing religions or mythologies.

Things get a bit more complicated with characters like Kaio-sama, Kaioshin, and Zeno-sama, as these terms are harder to translate directly. While "Omniking" for Zeno-sama is a fitting and cool adaptation, I still find it challenging to think of suitable English adaptations for Kaio and Kaioshin. But Kami-sama is God, and most of the reactions and jokes around his position are either lost or weakened when you choose not to translate it.