Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[tonysoprano300]

Funny that if Vegeta wasn't around, the Cell Saga would've been a lot easier. Boo Saga might have taken a dark turn, however.

Future Gohan doesn't sacrifice himself --> Future Gohan goes to the past --> Piccolo saves Goku from 19 and 20 --> If 20 escapes to the mountains, Trunks doesn't distract everyone --> Gero can't flee to his lab --> Androids never activated

Boo Saga events would be completely different, but I can't see the Z Fighters surviving Babidi and Dabra.

Aside from the dub it was never said he would be the strongest just that Saiyan/Earthling hybrids were uber powerful. Nothing about his story required him to become the strongest in the universe. There was never any explicit promise for Gohan to surpass everyone. The fact that he was able to stand toe to toe with the rest of the Z warriors at the age of 5 was enough

It's clear as day Toriyama didn't even think of making Gohan the most powerful until roughly the time Cell became perfect. And we know he backtracked on that anyways...

All from the manga:

Raditz to Goku: "This kid is even stronger than you!"

Piccolo after kidnapping Gohan: "I will make you the mightiest warrior" and keeps trying to set up Gohan as the main player to kill Nappa.

Kuririn: Suggests Gohan could fight Vegeta and then Freeza once Guru unlocks his hidden powers.

Vegeta after Gohan smacks 2nd form Freeza: "Could he be the real Super Saiyan?"


Gohan isn't the chosen one, but Toriyama always kept the idea in his pocket and it's only natural he'd use this plot with the story going past Freeza. But if after Namek Vegeta stayed dead and the series had an epilogue with Gohan saying "You know, I'm just prefer studying anyway" it would've been fine too.

Why would the Buu saga be different? Goku would have still been training for the entirety of the 7 year time skip.

[FoolsGil]

Don't get me wrong, he was useful to the story end of day, but yes, they shouldn't have put up with him one minute longer than necessary. Of course I heard these three statements several times:

#1: Half of Dragon Team are former villains, Pre Minus Goku could have been a villain if he didn't fall on his head!

#2: Goku doesn't care about good or evil, he just wants a good fight!

#3: Only Goku could have physically removed him from Earth.

Well here are my thoughts
Reply to #1: Vegeta is far and away the worst criminal that has ever joined the group. Anyone who came close, was killed before Vegeta came onto the scene.

Reply to #2: Goku begging Vegeta to live to fight again, is far different from let Vegeta live on Earth. And Vegeta can always visit for his rematch. He doesn't have to live on Earth. If anything living on Earth will give him a disadvantage - He'll grow soft, which he did, rather quickly in fact.

Reply to #3: Mafuba. Put him in a rice jar and chuck him into space.

[AliTheZombie13]

I really don't get the "But everybody was villains" counter-point.
I mean, if you broke someone's leg in real life, but you apologized to that person and made an effort to be better, I don't get how that even remotely compares to allowing an unrepentant mass-murderer to walk free.

Another response to point #3: They could just call Spike the Devilman to blow Vegeta up from the massive amount of evil he has in his heart.

[tonysoprano300]

Don't get me wrong, he was useful to the story end of day, but yes, they shouldn't have put up with him one minute longer than necessary. Of course I heard these three statements several times:

#1: Half of Dragon Team are former villains, Pre Minus Goku could have been a villain if he didn't fall on his head!

#2: Goku doesn't care about good or evil, he just wants a good fight!

#3: Only Goku could have physically removed him from Earth.

Well here are my thoughts
Reply to #1: Vegeta is far and away the worst criminal that has ever joined the group. Anyone who came close, was killed before Vegeta came onto the scene.

Reply to #2: Goku begging Vegeta to live to fight again, is far different from let Vegeta live on Earth. And Vegeta can always visit for his rematch. He doesn't have to live on Earth. If anything living on Earth will give him a disadvantage - He'll grow soft, which he did, rather quickly in fact.

Reply to #3: Mafuba. Put him in a rice jar and chuck him into space.

In regards to the 3rd point, I wouldn’t necessarily mind but they just didn’t do anything with that. Its not like Vegeta forced himself into capsule corp, he was welcomed there.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why would the Buu saga be different? Goku would have still been training for the entirety of the 7 year time skip.

I don't think he could get strong enough to defeat Dabra without the Rosat, but who knows. They barely scrapped by against Cell by gambling everything on Gohan.

[Hellspawn28]

Piccolo(A literal demon) didn’t kill anyone either.

Piccolo blew up Papaya Island and probably killed many inhabitants.

[kemuri07]

Don't get me wrong, he was useful to the story end of day, but yes, they shouldn't have put up with him one minute longer than necessary. Of course I heard these three statements several times:

#1: Half of Dragon Team are former villains, Pre Minus Goku could have been a villain if he didn't fall on his head!

#2: Goku doesn't care about good or evil, he just wants a good fight!

#3: Only Goku could have physically removed him from Earth.

Well here are my thoughts
Reply to #1: Vegeta is far and away the worst criminal that has ever joined the group. Anyone who came close, was killed before Vegeta came onto the scene.

Reply to #2: Goku begging Vegeta to live to fight again, is far different from let Vegeta live on Earth. And Vegeta can always visit for his rematch. He doesn't have to live on Earth. If anything living on Earth will give him a disadvantage - He'll grow soft, which he did, rather quickly in fact.

Reply to #3: Mafuba. Put him in a rice jar and chuck him into space.

But I mean what were they going to do? Tell him to fuck off? Post-Frieza, the only person who could possibly handle Vegeta was fucking around in Space. They only tolerated him because he was the second strongest of the team, and that his near obsession with besting Goku is at least convenience in that his whole "ONLY I CAN DEFEAT KAKAROT" means that he will sometimes help take down the bad guys.

I mean it's not like Vegeta was drinking brewskies with the bros, so even while he was living at Capsule Corpse, his relationship with the Z team was volatile--at best.

[AliTheZombie13]

But I mean what were they going to do? Tell him to fuck off? Post-Frieza, the only person who could possibly handle Vegeta was fucking around in Space.

1. Mafuba
2. Spike the Devilman
3. Piccolo
4. Piccolo fused with Kami

[FoolsGil]

But I mean what were they going to do? Tell him to fuck off? Post-Frieza, the only person who could possibly handle Vegeta was fucking around in Space. They only tolerated him because he was the second strongest of the team, and that his near obsession with besting Goku is at least convenience in that his whole "ONLY I CAN DEFEAT KAKAROT" means that he will sometimes help take down the bad guys.

I mean it's not like Vegeta was drinking brewskies with the bros, so even while he was living at Capsule Corpse, his relationship with the Z team was volatile--at best.

It's almost like you didn't read my response beyond the first sentence.

#3: Only Goku could have physically removed him from Earth.

Reply to #3: Mafuba. Put him in a rice jar and chuck him into space.

[AliTheZombie13]

They didn't even need the Mafuba. Piccolo should at least be able to put up a good fight against Vegeta, same for Gohan. The other Earth warriors trained under Kaio. Unite everybody and gang up against him and he's good as dead.

And even if you throw that out of the window, Piccolo showed in the Cell Saga that he could've fused with Kami to become stronger than Vegeta in a second if provoked enough. The "But Vegeta is stronger than everybody else combined" excuse never held any weight, the only reason they're not ganging up against him or voicing any discomfort is because the story started treating him like a good guy.

[Cure Dragon 255]

[quote=AliTheZombie13 post_id=1785818 time=1721245230 user_id=128939]They didn't even need the Mafuba. Piccolo should at least be able to put up a good fight against Vegeta, same for Gohan. The other Earth warriors trained under Kaio. Unite everybody and gang up against him and he's good as dead.

And even if you throw that out of the window, Piccolo showed in the Cell Saga that he could've fused with Kami to become stronger than Vegeta in a second if provoked enough. The "But Vegeta is stronger than everybody else combined" excuse never held any weight, the only reason they're not ganging up against him or voicing any discomfort is because the story started treating him like a good guy.
[/quote]

First the Mafuba working on post Piccolo Daimao opponents is Super era retcon that didnt even amount to anything in the end, and superior numbers have never worked on Dragon Ball past a certain point (The Saiyan Saga). Not now, not ever again. I get you, Vegeta's fucking infuriating and at several points you just want to punch him in the balls for a year without getting tired. I do too, but this "We need to eliminate any sort of conflict from the series, because it pisses me off" is a dangerous way to think because in the end it will reach its apex of "I cant tolerate any sort of character flaw or inconvience in the plot. The plot is there to be resolved as smartly and smoothly as possible. Fuck any character that gets in the way". To be fair YOU ARE NOT (Not Ali or the other people) saying this but this is the way this way of thinking is going btw. "I cant stand Goku being enabled and praised by the plot" IS EXTREMELY valid, but the people on the other side are getting worried this is going to reach the "PHUCK CONFLICT" Stage.

Also its pretty easy to say "Yeah Piccolo and Kami should merge earlier!" But they only did it because it was the absolutely neccesary thing to do, I bet YOU wouldnt be so jolly and happy to join again IF the fear of ceasing to exist entirely existed. Your conciousness ceases to exist. I know you CAN indeed not be afraid and go "PFFFT! Go ahead I am not afraid!" But then I tell you that's not how the majority feels.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm not against conflict, I'm against dumb easily avoidable conflict that makes me reevaluate the time I spend with the series I am watching. Vegeta could have had a better character trajectory than just "And then he stays at Bulma's with no explanation."

The anime itself toys with the idea, having an episode where Vegeta threatens to enslave everybody and conquer the world, Gohan fights him, Piccolo intervenes and Vegeta decides to let it go and flies off somewhere.

That's it, that's literally what Toriyama needed to do. Have Vegeta fly off somewhere, have him regroup with the Dragon Team when Freeza threatens Earth again with another "Enemy of my enemy" type of conflict, and have him fly off somewhere again to train by himself. Then have him come back to save Goku when #19 and #20 attack.

The story doesn't even need that much adjustment. But the whole deal of "And then Vegeta just randomly started living with Bulma and everybody accepted him with open arms" is asinine and an extreme case of poor planning.

[FoolsGil]

First the Mafuba working on post Piccolo Daimao opponents is Super era retcon that didnt even amount to anything in the end

We have gotten so little information on the Mafuba, and I believe as as a community we just shrugged our shoulders to the Dragon Team never using it after the 23rd Budokai, that technically nothing was retconned. Super's writers just remembered it existed and went back to using it. It was never even used against Buu, an actual demon when compared to basically a corrupted Namekian spirit.

[AliTheZombie13]

I mean, if it can be reversed and used on a random man (possessed by an alien, but still), then I can believe it can be used on anyone.

[tonysoprano300]

[quote=AliTheZombie13 post_id=1785818 time=1721245230 user_id=128939]They didn't even need the Mafuba. Piccolo should at least be able to put up a good fight against Vegeta, same for Gohan. The other Earth warriors trained under Kaio. Unite everybody and gang up against him and he's good as dead.

And even if you throw that out of the window, Piccolo showed in the Cell Saga that he could've fused with Kami to become stronger than Vegeta in a second if provoked enough. The "But Vegeta is stronger than everybody else combined" excuse never held any weight, the only reason they're not ganging up against him or voicing any discomfort is because the story started treating him like a good guy.

First the Mafuba working on post Piccolo Daimao opponents is Super era retcon that didnt even amount to anything in the end, and superior numbers have never worked on Dragon Ball past a certain point (The Saiyan Saga). Not now, not ever again. I get you, Vegeta's fucking infuriating and at several points you just want to punch him in the balls for a year without getting tired. I do too, but this "We need to eliminate any sort of conflict from the series, because it pisses me off" is a dangerous way to think because in the end it will reach its apex of "I cant tolerate any sort of character flaw or inconvience in the plot. The plot is there to be resolved as smartly and smoothly as possible. Fuck any character that gets in the way". To be fair YOU ARE NOT (Not Ali or the other people) saying this but this is the way this way of thinking is going btw. "I cant stand Goku being enabled and praised by the plot" IS EXTREMELY valid, but the people on the other side are getting worried this is going to reach the "PHUCK CONFLICT" Stage.

Also its pretty easy to say "Yeah Piccolo and Kami should merge earlier!" But they only did it because it was the absolutely neccesary thing to do, I bet YOU wouldnt be so jolly and happy to join again IF the fear of ceasing to exist entirely existed. Your conciousness ceases to exist. I know you CAN indeed not be afraid and go "PFFFT! Go ahead I am not afraid!" But then I tell you that's not how the majority feels.
[/quote]

To be absolutely clear, superior numbers did work in the saiyan saga. Thats exactly how they took down Vegeta, by leveraging their numbers advantage alongside the use of various techniques. Even Yajarobe got involved! He made huge contributions that the Dragon team would not have been to succeed without.

I'm not even inherently against the idea of Vegeta deciding to live on Earth in order to wait for Goku’s arrival so he could learn the secret of the Super Saiyan. I could even but that the others wouldn’t like it but feel as though strirring up a conflict with such a powerful foe should only be done out of absolute necessity(and likely when Goku is around to help). If he did what piccolo did, and just isolated himself for the next few years then fine. But to be invited to capsule corp and having a child with Bulma? Then being given free reign to make death threats on top of that and actively kill more innocent people and work against the interest of the Dragon team? Its just too much, this is why Namek arc Vegeta is the best Vegeta.

Does Vegeta offer an avenue to make shit happen? Absolutely, I think its very overused though. It didn’t need to happen like 10 million times and the same goes for Goku in Super. It just gets to a point where you’re like “Hm, I wonder how Vegeta will fuck things up this time” lol

[super michael]

Don't get me wrong, he was useful to the story end of day, but yes, they shouldn't have put up with him one minute longer than necessary. Of course I heard these three statements several times:

#1: Half of Dragon Team are former villains, Pre Minus Goku could have been a villain if he didn't fall on his head!

#2: Goku doesn't care about good or evil, he just wants a good fight!

#3: Only Goku could have physically removed him from Earth.

Well here are my thoughts
Reply to #1: Vegeta is far and away the worst criminal that has ever joined the group. Anyone who came close, was killed before Vegeta came onto the scene.

Reply to #2: Goku begging Vegeta to live to fight again, is far different from let Vegeta live on Earth. And Vegeta can always visit for his rematch. He doesn't have to live on Earth. If anything living on Earth will give him a disadvantage - He'll grow soft, which he did, rather quickly in fact.

Reply to #3: Mafuba. Put him in a rice jar and chuck him into space.

Goku on Namek told Freeza that he didn't want to see him ever again. He didn't care about any rematch at all.

Goku wanted Gohan to kill Cell, didn't think about any rematch.

Goku wanted Kid Boo dead, he didn't think about any rematch. Oob is a different person.



Vegeta was the reason why Cell got his perfect form and why Gohan got injured. Vegeta is also the reason why Bok got resurrected and why the earth blew up.

[Koitsukai]

The ball is in Vegeta's court. If he doesn't attack them, then there's no need for them to start a fight.

-Piccolo fusing with Kami? one of the reasons they went to Namek was to bring the DBs back. Throwing that away just to get rid of a guy not doing anything really at Capsule Corp seems... unnecessary. In fact, Kami was so reluctant to do it even when they had no other way out of the android conflict, that in the event of doing it just for revenge on a napping Vegeta, he would tell Piccolo to fuck off.
-Mafuba? it's supposed to be a fatal technique for the user, until DBS retconned it to be another kamehameha.
-Ganging up? that could work, yes... at the cost of at least one of the gang dying. They went to Namek to bring them back, only for them to get killed again... by the same guy... but now they are the ones starting the conflict?

So, is it really worth it? Geets is hardly being a problem and is just sitting there waiting for somebody else. I mean, if he was running around wreaking havoc and nobody was doing shit, then sure.

[FoolsGil]

The ball is in Vegeta's court. If he doesn't attack them, then there's no need for them to start a fight.

-Piccolo fusing with Kami? one of the reasons they went to Namek was to bring the DBs back. Throwing that away just to get rid of a guy not doing anything really at Capsule Corp seems... unnecessary. In fact, Kami was so reluctant to do it even when they had no other way out of the android conflict, that in the event of doing it just for revenge on a napping Vegeta, he would tell Piccolo to fuck off.
-Mafuba? it's supposed to be a fatal technique for the user, until DBS retconned it to be another kamehameha.
-Ganging up? that could work, yes... at the cost of at least one of the gang dying. They went to Namek to bring them back, only for them to get killed again... by the same guy... but now they are the ones starting the conflict?

So, is it really worth it? Geets is hardly being a problem and is just sitting there waiting for somebody else. I mean, if he was running around wreaking havoc and nobody was doing shit, then sure.

While I wonder if the issue with the Mafuba Pre Super wasn't that it was inherently fatal, but took an absurd amount of energy to pull off -because I don't think Kami would have sacrificed that guy he possessed to seal Piccolo - A situation of losing one or multiple members of the Dragon Team to get Vegeta off world if not just kill him is a far better answer to why they are forced to put up with him than anything else I've heard.

[AliTheZombie13]

The Mafuba isn't fatal. Kami himself contradicts that notion in the original.

[jjgp1112]

They didn't even need the Mafuba. Piccolo should at least be able to put up a good fight against Vegeta, same for Gohan. The other Earth warriors trained under Kaio. Unite everybody and gang up against him and he's good as dead.

And even if you throw that out of the window, Piccolo showed in the Cell Saga that he could've fused with Kami to become stronger than Vegeta in a second if provoked enough. The "But Vegeta is stronger than everybody else combined" excuse never held any weight, the only reason they're not ganging up against him or voicing any discomfort is because the story started treating him like a good guy.

Y'all are saying this like the Z Fighters have ever been known for being proactive. If Vegeta doesn't start shit...which he DIDN'T...then they see no reason to get rid of him. Vegeta's there with nowhere to go, his motive for wanting the Dragon Balls is now gone, he's patiently waiting for Goku to return; just treat him like a brown bear in the woods and everything's fine. Like I said, Vegeta's a psycho but not a guy who destroys for destroying sake; which he proved by behaving himself on Earth. We're basically talking hypotheticals and what-ifs here. If if was a spliff we'd be all fucked up.