The REAL reason people dont forgive GT for "Plot Holes" when they do for OG and Z

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, it's the lousy fighting for me. And the sidelining of the rest of the gang. But mostly the fights, because DBS also sidelined almost everybody for the most part (how many arcs have only being about Goku and Vegeta?) but since some DBS fights are among the best of the franchise, I can overlook its flaws.

But GT, being a fighting series, really has nothing to offer when it comes to that. It's like going to a restaurant that has bad food, nothing really matters as much as the food not being good. And it's even worse when you remember GT has probably the best form in the entire franchise.

[super michael]

Yeah, it's the lousy fighting for me. And the sidelining of the rest of the gang. But mostly the fights, because DBS also sidelined almost everybody for the most part (how many arcs have only being about Goku and Vegeta?) but since some DBS fights are among the best of the franchise, I can overlook its flaws.

But GT, being a fighting series, really has nothing to offer when it comes to that. It's like going to a restaurant that has bad food, nothing really matters as much as the food not being good. And it's even worse when you remember GT has probably the best form in the entire franchise.

When it comes down to which one has the better fight, I have to give it to DBS. There are some fights that I rank it 10/10.

However when it comes to character writing, then I have to give it to GT. I prefer GT Goku over DBS Goku. The writing of the character is important, not only the fights.

As for transformation I have to say SSJ4 is better than SSG, SSB, MSSB, SSBE, ESSB, SSB Kaioken, UI Omen, UI and UE.
SSJ4 is better than SSJ Rage and SSJ Rose.

[Hellspawn28]

I think the worst plot holes in the original manga and anime was with Cell's regeneration and Super Buu turning into Kid Buu after Fat Buu being removed. Toriyama is not a perfect writer and some of his writing made very little sense for a cohesive narrative.

[GhostEmperorX]

Agreed. GT is simply boring as fuck, the music is atrocious(does it even have a battle theme??!) and I do not find the art and animation direction particularly impressive.

Should this be referring to the original, it might be the result of putting a new guy without any name recognition (who's left that specific field since right when it ended) and thus an inadequate budget on the helm of the project.
Including that, there's certainly a reason why it hasn't ever really made that much of a comeback outside of some of its ideas or characters getting reused elsewhere.

[TechExpert2021]

As for transformations, I have to say SSJ4 is better than SSG, SSB, MSSB, SSBE, ESSB, SSB Kaioken, UI Omen, UI and UE.
SSJ4 is better than SSJ Rage and SSJ Rose.

Agreed because most of DB Super's transformations are simply lazy recolors.

SSJ Rage, SSJB Evolution, Ultra Ego, Orange Piccolo, and Son Gohan Beast are terrible transformations IMO.

Agreed. GT is simply boring as fuck, the music is atrocious(does it even have a battle theme??!) and I do not find the art and animation direction particularly impressive.

Should this be referring to the original, it might be the result of putting a new guy without any name recognition (who's left that specific field since right when it ended) and thus an inadequate budget on the helm of the project.
Including that, there's certainly a reason why it hasn't ever really made that much of a comeback outside of some of its ideas or characters getting reused elsewhere.

I'm mostly okay with the Japanese soundtrack, but I found the Mark Menza soundtrack of DBGT to be awful and unfitting.

[GhostEmperorX]

I'm mostly okay with the Japanese soundtrack, but I found the Mark Menza soundtrack of DBGT to be awful and unfitting.

Much like his "intro" for the DVD's or something (I think it was one of the replacement movie ED's?), it would probably have worked in a completely different series/medium and with less of being the same thing recycled all the time (apparently according to its critics and from the few clips here & there I've seen). It was less obviously low budget than what came before it but that's a pretty low bar to clear.

As far as the original version soundtrack, I don't really see much of a point in comparing it to anything else since it was made under some rather atypical circumstances (and to reiterate, the guy in charge of it no longer has anything to do with media scores since, aside the fact that it won't ever be released as it was).

[SupremeKai25]

As for transformations, I have to say SSJ4 is better than SSG, SSB, MSSB, SSBE, ESSB, SSB Kaioken, UI Omen, UI and UE.
SSJ4 is better than SSJ Rage and SSJ Rose.

Agreed because most of DB Super's transformations are simply lazy recolors.

SSJ Rage, SSJB Evolution, Ultra Ego, Orange Piccolo, and Son Gohan Beast are terrible transformations IMO.

Hey, at least they are recolors, whose package also includes reworked CGI auras.

Z forms are so cheap and lazy that they couldn't even recolor anything, let alone change the aura designs.

[GokuHater]

As for transformations, I have to say SSJ4 is better than SSG, SSB, MSSB, SSBE, ESSB, SSB Kaioken, UI Omen, UI and UE.
SSJ4 is better than SSJ Rage and SSJ Rose.

Agreed because most of DB Super's transformations are simply lazy recolors.

SSJ Rage, SSJB Evolution, Ultra Ego, Orange Piccolo, and Son Gohan Beast are terrible transformations IMO.

Hey, at least they are recolors, whose package also includes reworked CGI auras.

Z forms are so cheap and lazy that they couldn't even recolor anything, let alone change the aura designs.

Maybe so, but the difference is, Dragon Ball was made weekly as one story so the style of transformations envisioned by Toryiama stayed similar and consistent, while maybe not on the most creative reasons (not need to ink?)

As for Super we are after seeing how SSJ4 can be a creative design, after 30 years of waiting and being able to come up with new solutions and designs apart from "same old". Practically there's no difference between the old transformations and new ones but realistically a new series, done so much time after, should present new ideas.

[Deadpoolio]

People will be harsher on it for GT because GT didn't have anything good going for it.

Super has issues with it's plot but people will overlook certain things because then you've got Goku going Ultra Instinct for the first time or the big spectacle of the Tournament of Power or Trunks or Android 17 coming back.

GT there was just nothing good about it. There weren't really any good fights. Most the good characters weren't in it. Pan was atrocious. It was goofy. There was no highlight of the show at all.

[SupremeKai25]

Agreed because most of DB Super's transformations are simply lazy recolors.

SSJ Rage, SSJB Evolution, Ultra Ego, Orange Piccolo, and Son Gohan Beast are terrible transformations IMO.

Hey, at least they are recolors, whose package also includes reworked CGI auras.

Z forms are so cheap and lazy that they couldn't even recolor anything, let alone change the aura designs.

Maybe so, but the difference is, Dragon Ball was made weekly as one story so the style of transformations envisioned by Toryiama stayed similar and consistent, while maybe not on the most creative reasons (not need to ink?)

As for Super we are after seeing how SSJ4 can be a creative design, after 30 years of waiting and being able to come up with new solutions and designs apart from "same old". Practically there's no difference between the old transformations and new ones but realistically a new series, done so much time after, should present new ideas.

Dragon Ball at its roots is a gag manga that doesn't take itself too seriously - hence, transformations must be simple in design.

The legendary warrior form of legend is literally just Goku with white hair to save time for Toriyama/his assistant.

SSJ4 does not fit Dragon Ball.

This is a form that fits Dragon Ball - simple in design, easy to look at and understand what's going on:




This is not a form that fits Dragon Ball - weird, over-designed, too complex, too many things going on.




Like I'm sorry I don't understand how people don't see the difference between Toriyama forms and Toei/Fan-fiction/DeviantArt/Tumblr forms. To me the differences are clear and only one nails down what Dragon Ball is supposed to be (it's Toriyama). Everyone else makes forms that are too over-designed and complex to follow.

For the record, SSG isn't just a recolour, it also bulks down Goku a little to highlight the Divine elegance of the form as well as give a Divine "feeling" to Goku. (same as SSJ Rosé for Black and also why Toriyama designed Black so slim compared to normal Goku). SSJB then bulks Goku up again because he's using Super Saiyan while in the God state. For that alone, SSG has a more creative element going on than SSJ2.

[90sDBZ]

I think there's a few reasons for it.

In many ways GT looks and feels distinctly different to DB/Z, to the point were it alienates fans. The characters are mostly getting old, and are drawn to look it. Stuff like Vegeta having a moustache, Gohan seemingly being 100% done with fighting, and Piccolo barely being present at all understandably rubs fans the wrong way.

GT was part of the OG run, and most of us watched it right after Z. Because of this the direct comparisons were inevitable. The early episodes in particular are drastically different from the majority of Z.

I mention these changes because it further pushes the impression that the plot holes are present because the writers either didn't care about DB/Z, or perhaps didn't fully watch it (this probably isn't actually the case). Stuff like Gohan randomly not having Mystic anymore, Krillin getting revived by Shenron a 2nd time, and Android 19 having his Ki sensed all give this impression. Super is arguably even worse in this regard though, having come out much later.

And there's also the fact that GT pushed Goku to the point that nearly every other character faded into obscurity. Fans of Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo were understandably disappointed. Even Uub, who was set up to be a big deal, amounted to very little. Part of me thinks Gohan had Mystic taken off him because the writers didn't want him taking attention away from Goku.

I do still enjoy GT though, and will even say it had some cool fights. Goku's fights with Baby were really well done, as were some of the Shadow Dragon fights. The Rildo fight was pretty unique and creative too. And Goku finishing the ice dragon with Dragon Fist is one of the most awesome looking moments in the series, made even more impressive by the fact he was blind at the time.

[Majin Buu]

SSJ4 does not fit Dragon Ball.

It's ironic how much you're evoking Toriyama to shit on SSJ4 considering Toriyama loved the form.

[GokuHater]

Hey, at least they are recolors, whose package also includes reworked CGI auras.

Z forms are so cheap and lazy that they couldn't even recolor anything, let alone change the aura designs.

Maybe so, but the difference is, Dragon Ball was made weekly as one story so the style of transformations envisioned by Toryiama stayed similar and consistent, while maybe not on the most creative reasons (not need to ink?)

As for Super we are after seeing how SSJ4 can be a creative design, after 30 years of waiting and being able to come up with new solutions and designs apart from "same old". Practically there's no difference between the old transformations and new ones but realistically a new series, done so much time after, should present new ideas.

Dragon Ball at its roots is a gag manga that doesn't take itself too seriously - hence, transformations must be simple in design.

The legendary warrior form of legend is literally just Goku with white hair to save time for Toriyama/his assistant.

SSJ4 does not fit Dragon Ball.

This is a form that fits Dragon Ball - simple in design, easy to look at and understand what's going on:




This is not a form that fits Dragon Ball - weird, over-designed, too complex, too many things going on.




Like I'm sorry I don't understand how people don't see the difference between Toriyama forms and Toei/Fan-fiction/DeviantArt/Tumblr forms. To me the differences are clear and only one nails down what Dragon Ball is supposed to be (it's Toriyama). Everyone else makes forms that are too over-designed and complex to follow.

For the record, SSG isn't just a recolour, it also bulks down Goku a little to highlight the Divine elegance of the form as well as give a Divine "feeling" to Goku. (same as SSJ Rosé for Black and also why Toriyama designed Black so slim compared to normal Goku). SSJB then bulks Goku up again because he's using Super Saiyan while in the God state. For that alone, SSG has a more creative element going on than SSJ2.

Whoa there...

What you said here about what fits and what not is absolutely your opinion and not facts :p
I mean I certainly never seen Toryiama state what fits into his style and whatnot. Besides his style evolved all the fricking time.

In my opinion SSJ4 fits the "original" anime a lot more than SSJG. Bulky, a bit over the top, menacing... Think back to SSJ on Namek or SSJ3. SSJ4 is a lot more like those compared to God.

Which doesn't mean I don't like God. I actually enjoy the look of SSJG a lot and think it's unique. I enjoy SOME Super design like UI, Broly forms, Beast Gohan (even though thematically I think it's absurd, visually it is interesting to look at at least). Then they are forms which I agree are lazy like Blue, Blue Evolution, Rose.

So it all really depends on taste, there is no written rule on what the transformations should look like, it's only the fact that some clearly had more work and idea put into them.

[MasenkoHA]

As for transformations, I have to say SSJ4 is better than SSG, SSB, MSSB, SSBE, ESSB, SSB Kaioken, UI Omen, UI and UE.
SSJ4 is better than SSJ Rage and SSJ Rose.

Agreed because most of DB Super's transformations are simply lazy recolors.

SSJ Rage, SSJB Evolution, Ultra Ego, Orange Piccolo, and Son Gohan Beast are terrible transformations IMO.

Hey, at least they are recolors, whose package also includes reworked CGI auras.

Z forms are so cheap and lazy that they couldn't even recolor anything, let alone change the aura designs.

I get that trying to elevate Super as the superior Dragon Ball series while dogging on every other Dragon Ball series is your entire schtick/gimmick but it seems weird to criticize Z forms as cheap and lazy when Super Saiyan 3 actually did something different (big hair, no eyebrows, more primal look) to Super's various " it's Super Saiyan but red/blue/pink/green". I'm not huge on Super Saiyan 4 but it's a fairly logical extension of Super Saiyan 3 while remembering that the Saiyans are all were-monkeys

Even Super Saiyan 2, while not that distinct from the first form, is showing it's upgraded by adding electricity to the aura. The Super transformations are just "it's different because the color is different"

[Vegard Aune]

Super Saiyan 4 is a cool and memorable design. It's conceptually interesting, too. Much as I could not stand what little I saw of GT, I will not take that away from them.

[Zephyr]

Even Super Saiyan 2, while not that distinct from the first form, is showing it's upgraded by adding electricity to the aura. The Super transformations are just "it's different because the color is different"

That's not entirely fair either, though. God and Blue have unique auras, and God also slims the user's body. Rose is a variant of Blue, and so retains the unique aura. Ultra Ego changed Vegeta's eyebrows. Beast Gohan made the hair extremely large (to the point that many people hate it), and Orange Piccolo changes his non-color-related physical appearance even more than God changed Goku's. Changing color is a major feature of Super's transformations, but it's hardly all that's happening with them.

I say all this while also really liking the Super Saiyan forms from the 90's, with 3 and 4 being my favorites. The Cell arc forms carry fun narrative implications on the relative martial prowess of Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks. And while Super Saiyan 2 hardly changes anything after its first appearance, its first appearance presents a fairly cool change in Gohan's hair shape.

And as said, 4's one of my favorite Super Saiyan forms. It's certainly one of the reasons I can forgive some of GT's shortcomings.

[MasenkoHA]

Even Super Saiyan 2, while not that distinct from the first form, is showing it's upgraded by adding electricity to the aura. The Super transformations are just "it's different because the color is different"

That's not entirely fair either, though. God and Blue have unique auras, and God also slims the user's body. Rose is a variant of Blue, and so retains the unique aura. Ultra Ego changed Vegeta's eyebrows. Beast Gohan made the hair extremely large (to the point that many people hate it), and Orange Piccolo changes his non-color-related physical appearance even more than God changed Goku's. Changing color is a major feature of Super's transformations, but it's hardly all that's happening with them.

I say all this while also really liking the Super Saiyan forms from the 90's, with 3 and 4 being my favorites. The Cell arc forms carry fun narrative implications on the relative martial prowess of Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks. And while Super Saiyan 2 hardly changes anything after its first appearance, its first appearance presents a fairly cool change in Gohan's hair shape.

And as said, 4's one of my favorite Super Saiyan forms. It's certainly one of the reasons I can forgive some of GT's shortcomings.

That's fair enough.

As far as Super Saiyan 2 goes, I'm more forgiving of its lack of distinction from default Super Saiyan since it was the first upgrade so there wasn't a precedent set that it needed to look all that different.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The secret to immortality is watching the post-Gogeta episodes on repeat. It never ends!

[WittyUsername]

In fairness, I do think GT has some pretty glaring logical inconsistencies, even by the standards of Dragon Ball, like how 17 and 18 suddenly have ki (or really everything to do with the Super 17 story) or the very existence of the Black Star Dragon Balls.

With that said, I do agree that the main reason GT has a bad rep isn’t so much the perceived plot holes, but more that it doesn’t have much to offer as a Dragon Ball series. The fights are lackluster, most of the characters are sidelined to the point where ‘Goku Time’ has been a long-running fandom joke, the Evil Dragons arc is too episodic for its own good, and the first 15 or so episodes of the show play like a rehash of the very first arc of the manga, which is arguably the least popular point in the series.

Super has a plethora of problems as well, but it’s much flashier than GT, and had the benefit of being made after a long dry period in the fandom.

[Zephyr]

the first 15 or so episodes of the show play like a rehash of the very first arc of the manga, which is arguably the least popular point in the series.

Beyond it rehashing the least popular arc of the original manga, I think it's also just not a terribly great rehashing of it.

Like, Dragon Ball is no stranger to rehashing and remixing prior material, be it some old story or movie (Journey to the West, Drunken Master, King Boxer, etc.), or a previous arc within DB itself. Most notably, the non-tournament focused "battle" arcs are arguably rehashing the broad plot beats of the original Tao Pai Pai fights, but those largely feel like a repeated refinement of that general idea (hero gets beat, recovers, gets stronger, comes back and wins, etc.) and goes interesting places with it.

The Dragon Ball hunt portion of the Baby arc just feels like a really cheap imitation of the Pilaf arc. While that arc wasn't popular enough to keep the series going in that format, I still think it's a tight and solid comedic road story. It's consistently funny as fuck (even if a bit problematic), and the dynamic between all of the characters is chef's kiss. Everything ends up dovetailing in a really satisfying way by the end.

I need to rewatch GT to really get a solid grasp on my take here, but from what I remember of my last watch (and Gaffer Tape's review of it refreshing some stuff in my mind), the characters don't play off of each other nearly as well, the jokes aren't nearly as funny, the repeated beats aren't really refining the idea in an interesting way, and the various locations they visit honestly fucking drag. Every planet they visited felt like it could have been handled in a single episode, but they often went on for at least two or three.