About DBS Goku

[SupremeKai25]

And yet Cell Games Goku said:

Spoiler:

DBS Goku is just a regressed idiot. Why else is Cell saga Goku smarter than him?

Goku DID finish him off, from his perspective. At that point, Moro was broken and powerless to do anything. Furthermore, unlike an android such as Cell, he does not possess an internal explosive device. So from Goku's perspective, Moro was defeated. He literally had to help him get out of from under a pile of rubble.

Of course Goku warned Gohan to finish off Cell. He knows that androids have internal explosive devices, why wouldn't he assume the same is true for Cell? But Moro is not an android, it is certain that he doesn't have an internal bomb, so incomparable situations.

Again, Goku couldn't know that Moro still had one trick left.

[Zephyr]

words

Re: Piccolo

It's not clear what made Goku think that about Piccolo. As I've explained elsewhere:

We could use that to interpret Goku as seeing Ma Junior as less evil from the getgo, and that might justify him being a bit more reckless, giving the free hit, not sealing him away, etc. On the other hand, we could also interpret the fact that Piccolo left after the match, and then didn't stir anything up for half a decade as being what lead Goku to that conclusion in the first place. In which case we couldn't use that to justify his recklessness during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

There's another point I hadn't brought up in that thread. After Piccolo renders Goku unable to use his arms or legs, he blasts him from above, and then says, with a smile on his face: "Blasted to atoms!! Not even Shenlong can restore him now!!"; "Piccolo has won!!!! Son Goku is dead!!!! Now begins the age of demons and terror!!!!" Then he looks to Goku's friends and says "Heh. But first, let us pause for your deaths. Give my love to Son Goku when you see him."

So, I don't think we can say that Goku "sensed good in him", because he's still a straightforwardly evil bastard fully intent on terror. I think a much more reasonable interpretation is that Goku concluded he wasn't as evil because he left after being healed rather than immediately restarting the fight, and hadn't started any more trouble since then. Which means I don't think Gohan's line here in the Saiyan arc helps to absolve Goku of any recklessness he exhibited during the tournament.

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Re: Freeza

Indeed, Goku tells him he never wants to see his face again, after he bows out of their fight the first time. Importantly, in the next chapter, Goku remarks on Freeza's kienzan strategy in the following way: "I really don't see the point...you're just hurting your own confidence with these stunts. If you want to settle this, you should go off and get your strength back, learn a few new attacks."

We don't know how Goku's confrontation with Freeza and Cold went down because it's never shown to us, so it's not exactly useful to bring up here. Yeah, he ended up killing them. He also ended up killing Yakon, but still made reckless decisions in the same arc.

You can argue that Golden Freeza having caught up very quick makes Goku accommodating him more reckless than these previous examples, but that doesn't mean it's at odds with those. It simply reinforces the notion that Goku's recklessness increases alongside his strength, something that is very easy to see from many folks' reactions to these instances of recklessness from the original run. For some, letting Gero build the Androids was the step too far. For others, it's letting Vegeta go. For you, it's letting Golden Freeza go. For me, I think it's weird to not draw this line with Piccolo; not that I think it's "too far", but it's where this becomes one of Goku's defining (and, in my opinion, fun) traits.

Like, it's not difficult to make the case that Goku is more of a clueless goofball in Super than he was in the Boo arc, but I don't think him letting Golden Freeza go is a symptom of that at all.

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Re: Giving Evil People A Chance

Sure, after Namek we don't see him "giving evil people a chance" in the way he gave Freeza a chance at the end of their fight on Namek. We also don't see him in the position to give evil people a chance in that way after Namek. With Freeza, he had decisively won that fight. He loses against #19, gives up against Cell, pauses his fight with Vegeta, cancels his first fight with Boo, and is unable to finish his second fight with Boo outside of using a Genki Dama to vaporize him. At no point can he say "okay, go along and train now".

Now, he does give evil people a chance in other ways. He does not make an effort to prevent Gero from building his Androids. He allows Cell to heal before fighting Gohan. He gives Vegeta the chance to damage him and restore Boo's full strength by not using Super Saiyan 3 after recognizing that Super Saiyan 2 will not allow him to end the fight quickly. He allows Boo to continue killing people instead of killing him with Super Saiyan 3, as he later admits he could have done (this is because he wanted Goten and Trunks to kill Boo, but it still allowed Boo to do more damage). He did not fuse with Vegeta to better guarantee that Pure Boo would be defeated.

He continues to express excitement and enjoyment from fighting these evil people, and continues to accommodate them more than he probably should have. That he also eventually wants many of them dead doesn't mean he's not still giving them the chance to do more harm. He continues to be arrogant and reckless, and the Golden Freeza example is perfectly in line with this.

I also mentioned in the other thread that we can read him as holding Super Saiyan 3 back from his fight with Vegeta, and teleporting to fight Boo instead of to grab the radar, as him wanting to have some fun. We can also read him as making a tactical error in thinking the Majin Vegeta thing was somehow not the time to use Super Saiyan 3, and that he's so dumb he forgot that he could just teleport to Capsule Corp. to grab the radar himself. So he's either being selfish or dumb, and neither tracks too well with the idea that Goku developed into a practical genius in the original run after Namek.

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Re: "Kakarot"
Something the Zamasu guy is trying to make a thing, when it's not a thing. It's just Goku being himself. I should have made that more clear, my bad.

---

I think I can agree with the idea that DBS Goku evolved as a person, strictly talking about how empathetic he has become. Though it’s also true that he regressed in fighting sense, which feels disconnected with the level of strength he acquired in Super. Goku does and says inexplicable stuff that makes him look like a totally different character. It’s all about what you like the most. I think I prefer his Battle of Gods’ film characterization, which kinda captures the best of his traits.

I think Super's a mixed bag with this. We see him reach Ultra Instinct, which was a very big deal. In the anime we also see him manage to stack the Kaio-ken on top of Super Saiyan Blue, and in the manga he manages to mimic Beerus' destruction ability.

But then you have stuff like the meditation line in Super Hero, which is just bizarre because it makes him seem like an idiot in the one place I think is actually egregious to do so.

[super michael]

I think I can agree with the idea that DBS Goku evolved as a person, strictly talking about how empathetic he has become. Though it’s also true that he regressed in fighting sense, which feels disconnected with the level of strength he acquired in Super. Goku does and says inexplicable stuff that makes him look like a totally different character. It’s all about what you like the most. I think I prefer his Battle of Gods’ film characterization, which kinda captures the best of his traits.

Goku seems to be very bossy in DBS, he has to know when Vegeta goes to Whis planet, otherwise Goku whines about it. That is something Goku has never done before. If Goku wants to go to Whis planet and Vegeta doesn't feel like it, then Goku complains about it.
In DBS Super Hero Goku complained about how Vegeta was training, even claiming that Vegeta was lying.

That alone make Goku feel different than DB/DBZ.
Goku even force others to fight him, even if they don't want to for whatever reason.


As for Piccolo and Piccolo Daimao, there is one huge difference. Piccolo Daimao killed many people and even used Tenshinhan as a shield, so he could get free hits on Goku.
Piccolo on the other hand never killed anyone, at least in the manga. He didn't use anyone as a shield and didn't fight dirty.

[Grimlock]

Yeah bro, Goku was totally stoic and serious in the Majin Buu fight. He really became Kakarot back then.

You really need to start posting images, videos and evidences to illustrate your point. I don't even know what you are talking about.

[SupremeKai25]

Yeah bro, Goku was totally stoic and serious in the Majin Buu fight. He really became Kakarot back then.

You really need to start posting images, videos and evidences to illustrate your point. I don't even know what you are talking about.

I suppose it's not a well-known meme in these fringe parts of the internet. Basically, people in mainstream circles (Reddit/Youtube/Tiktok, etc.) have a tendency to claim that whenever Goku acts cool/stoic/badass/serious, he's "becoming Kakarot", aka becoming more Saiyan-like.

Of course, what that overrated meme you posted conveniently ignored, is that DBZ Goku has plenty of dumb moments where he acts completely unserious.

[super michael]

Yeah bro, Goku was totally stoic and serious in the Majin Buu fight. He really became Kakarot back then.

You really need to start posting images, videos and evidences to illustrate your point. I don't even know what you are talking about.

I suppose it's not a well-known meme in these fringe parts of the internet. Basically, people in mainstream circles (Reddit/Youtube/Tiktok, etc.) have a tendency to claim that whenever Goku acts cool/stoic/badass/serious, he's "becoming Kakarot", aka becoming more Saiyan-like.

Of course, what that overrated meme you posted conveniently ignored, is that DBZ Goku has plenty of dumb moments where he acts completely unserious.

Goku has dumb moments in DBZ, however the amount of times that Goku is dumb in DBS is far greater and happens more aften.
The whole Kakarot meme I never seen it before.

[The Monkey King]

Goku DID finish him off, from his perspective. At that point, Moro was broken and powerless to do anything. Furthermore, unlike an android such as Cell, he does not possess an internal explosive device. So from Goku's perspective, Moro was defeated. He literally had to help him get out of from under a pile of rubble.

Of course Goku warned Gohan to finish off Cell. He knows that androids have internal explosive devices, why wouldn't he assume the same is true for Cell? But Moro is not an android, it is certain that he doesn't have an internal bomb, so incomparable situations.

Again, Goku couldn't know that Moro still had one trick left.

Weak counter-argument, we both know that in the Cell Games when Goku said "Finish off" he meant "Kill". Goku toyed with Moro until he pulled off a Cell and took the entire planet hostage.

In the Cell Games Goku said "We don't know what it will do!" not "He might try to blow himself up!" Goku acknowledged the possibility that Cell might do something unexpected and desperate.

So DBS Goku is too stupid to consider that a sneaky magical being like Moro might have another trick up his sleeve?

Again he's as dumb as a 9 year old Gohan and is a regressed idiot.

Especially since in the Moro arc it's Whis who bestows on to Goku the sage wisdom of killing Moro, which was common sense to Goku in the past

Spoiler:

[SupremeKai25]

Weak counter-argument, we both know that in the Cell Games when Goku said "Finish off" he meant "Kill". Goku toyed with Moro until he pulled off a Cell and took the entire planet hostage.

He didn't toy with him. He wasn't extending the fight to have fun and make him suffer.

He quite literally did the opposite. He finished the fight because it was clear that Moro was outclassed, and instead of outright killing him, he gave him the chance to go back to prison, hoping that he would reform and start training, instead of just stealing power from the innocent.

Gohan vs. Cell was being vengeful and sadistic, Goku vs. Moro was being compassionate, it's literally not the same.

In the Cell Games Goku said "We don't know what it will do!" not "He might try to blow himself up!" Goku acknowledged the possibility that Cell might do something unexpected and desperate.

Blowing himself up seems like an unexpected and desperate move. In Dragon Ball especially, such tactics are always treated as unexpected by the opponent.

Either way, the point stands. The protagonists knew that Cell was still standing and could pull some under-handed tactic, while Goku saw that Moro couldn't even get up anymore after the beatdown he got.

So DBS Goku is too stupid to consider that a sneaky magical being like Moro might have another trick up his sleeve?

Considering how Moro at that point was so broken and weak that he couldn't even get out from under some rubble without Goku helping him, yeah, it's a fair assumption to make.

And Moro still having his arm with stored Angel power lying on the battlefield was a stroke of luck that even Moro himself didn't expect.

Especially since in the Moro arc it's Whis who bestows on to Goku the sage wisdom of killing Moro, which was common sense to Goku in the past

Context please. That's AFTER Moro stole the Angel power with the aforementioned severed arm. Yeah, at that point Goku was bloodlust. Literally in the next panel Goku is raising his arm to deliver the final blow, that's when Moro pulls his final trump card and merges with the Earth. And Goku DOES kill Moro in the end anyway.

[ABED]

Piccolo on the other hand never killed anyone, at least in the manga. He didn't use anyone as a shield and didn't fight dirty.

He destroyed Papaya Island. No way everyone got off safely. He also tried to murder Goku, and would've made good on his threat to kill everyone else if he had won.

[tonysoprano300]

I guess to keep it brief, I would say the Super depiction of Goku is just uninteresting. It could have been compelling to really delve into Goku’s identity a little more and I feel like TOP could have done that but often times it feels like Goku’s worst tendencies are less so fatal character flaws and more so excuses to make things happen. This isn’t uniquely a Super issue, but for all the faults the Z portion of DB had; It always did make an effort to balance it out a bit by having Goku act like a genuine human being often enough. Like seeing reactions to Vegeta’s mass murder at the World Martial Tournament.

[SupremeKai25]

I guess to keep it brief, I would say the Super depiction of Goku is just uninteresting. It could have been compelling to really delve into Goku’s identity a little more and I feel like TOP could have done that but often times it feels like Goku’s worst tendencies are less so fatal character flaws and more so excuses to make things happen. This isn’t uniquely a Super issue, but for all the faults the Z portion of DB had; It always did make an effort to balance it out a bit by having Goku act like a genuine human being often enough. Like seeing reactions to Vegeta’s mass murder at the World Martial Tournament.

I mean, like half of an episode was devoted to showing Goku and the others' reactions to Grand Zeno erasing Universe 9.

[Skar]

I still think Goku being dumber in Super was because it's a midquel and giving him something to work towards. Originally nothing happened between Buu saga and EoZ so nothing to really develop him further. Aside from some anime only gags that Goku look dumber, it was mostly forgetting basic martial arts and having to learn them again. By the end of Super his development would just be where it was at the end of the Buu saga before a shorter timeskip that has him meeting Uub.

At the time, BoG might've been intended as a one time revival so there wasn't really a need for it and I don't recall anything off about his characterization. It started with RoF and having him relearn the basic lesson of staying on guard during a battle which I think is a confusing character flaw to give to a seasoned martial artist this late into the series. I'm pretty sure RoF was the only time that character flaw came up so it's like something he forgot and relearned for the sake of "development" in the movie. Same with that scene about Jiren and meditation. He forgot the importance of meditation or conserving energy or something in that moment but seems to have relearned it in the same scene so probably won't be brought up again.

Daima is probably going to be more like BoG since it's a limited series. I think that would make some of the character flaws or dumb moments in Super even more unnecessary if a midquel taking place earlier in the timeline probably won't have them. I could be wrong but I think most we'll see are some gags with him as a kid like with GT Goku.

[ABED]

I guess to keep it brief, I would say the Super depiction of Goku is just uninteresting. It could have been compelling to really delve into Goku’s identity a little more and I feel like TOP could have done that but often times it feels like Goku’s worst tendencies are less so fatal character flaws and more so excuses to make things happen. This isn’t uniquely a Super issue, but for all the faults the Z portion of DB had; It always did make an effort to balance it out a bit by having Goku act like a genuine human being often enough. Like seeing reactions to Vegeta’s mass murder at the World Martial Tournament.

They aren't excuses. They are why the stories unfold the way they do. He's not acting out of character. He wants to be the best and unless something is concrete and right in front of his face, he is fine being reckless and not consider the consequences to innocent people. We still see him be upset when that happens in Super.

It's just now more blatantly obvious that mentality leads to bad consequences when the stakes are higher. However, the stakes are so comically high that I find it weird when anyone takes issue with it.

[tonysoprano300]

I guess to keep it brief, I would say the Super depiction of Goku is just uninteresting. It could have been compelling to really delve into Goku’s identity a little more and I feel like TOP could have done that but often times it feels like Goku’s worst tendencies are less so fatal character flaws and more so excuses to make things happen. This isn’t uniquely a Super issue, but for all the faults the Z portion of DB had; It always did make an effort to balance it out a bit by having Goku act like a genuine human being often enough. Like seeing reactions to Vegeta’s mass murder at the World Martial Tournament.

I mean, like half of an episode was devoted to showing Goku and the others' reactions to Grand Zeno erasing Universe 9.

True, I wish it was a little more frequent though

[tonysoprano300]

I guess to keep it brief, I would say the Super depiction of Goku is just uninteresting. It could have been compelling to really delve into Goku’s identity a little more and I feel like TOP could have done that but often times it feels like Goku’s worst tendencies are less so fatal character flaws and more so excuses to make things happen. This isn’t uniquely a Super issue, but for all the faults the Z portion of DB had; It always did make an effort to balance it out a bit by having Goku act like a genuine human being often enough. Like seeing reactions to Vegeta’s mass murder at the World Martial Tournament.

They aren't excuses. They are why the stories unfold the way they do. He's not acting out of character. He wants to be the best and unless something is concrete and right in front of his face, he is fine being reckless and not consider the consequences to innocent people. We still see him be upset when that happens in Super.

It's just now more blatantly obvious that mentality leads to bad consequences when the stakes are higher. However, the stakes are so comically high that I find it weird when anyone takes issue with it.

The flaws themselves aren’t ever addressed in a substantive way, Goku is never forced to genuinely consider how his selfish actions affect others and how who he is now is a departure from the implied teachings of Grampa Gohan/Muten Roshi(The turtle school). The former mass murderer in Vegeta is genuinely a better person than him at this point. TOP knocks on the door of it, Toppo would have been a fantastic main antagonist.

In BOG there was a moment where it was almost addressed, i forget the details but I think it was Piccolo(?) who questioned whether Goku would is pure enough anymore for the saiyan god ritual to work on him. That particular point never went anywhere but it was an interesting moment that gives us some insight as to how the Son Goku who was once the only one pure enough to ride Kinotun and defeat Spike The Devilman is now in a position where his friends question whether he is worthy of the saiyan god ritual.

[ABED]

I guess to keep it brief, I would say the Super depiction of Goku is just uninteresting. It could have been compelling to really delve into Goku’s identity a little more and I feel like TOP could have done that but often times it feels like Goku’s worst tendencies are less so fatal character flaws and more so excuses to make things happen. This isn’t uniquely a Super issue, but for all the faults the Z portion of DB had; It always did make an effort to balance it out a bit by having Goku act like a genuine human being often enough. Like seeing reactions to Vegeta’s mass murder at the World Martial Tournament.

They aren't excuses. They are why the stories unfold the way they do. He's not acting out of character. He wants to be the best and unless something is concrete and right in front of his face, he is fine being reckless and not consider the consequences to innocent people. We still see him be upset when that happens in Super.

It's just now more blatantly obvious that mentality leads to bad consequences when the stakes are higher. However, the stakes are so comically high that I find it weird when anyone takes issue with it.

The flaws themselves aren’t ever addressed in a substantive way, Goku is never forced to genuinely consider how his selfish actions affect others and how who he is now is a departure from the implied teachings of Grampa Gohan/Muten Roshi(The turtle school). The former mass murderer in Vegeta is genuinely a better person than him at this point. TOP knocks on the door of it, Toppo would have been a fantastic main antagonist.

In BOG there was a moment where it was almost addressed, i forget the details but I think it was Piccolo(?) who questioned whether Goku would is pure enough anymore for the saiyan god ritual to work on him. That particular point never went anywhere but it was an interesting moment that gives us some insight as to how the Son Goku who was once the only one pure enough to ride Kinotun and defeat Spike The Devilman is now in a position where his friends question whether he is worthy of the saiyan god ritual.

There's no reason to. There are no lasting consequences. The Dragon Balls put things right every time.

No, Vegeta isn't a better person. He is just as culpable for all of it as Goku is, and worse. It's disingenuous to claim Vegeta wouldn't put people he cares about and strangers in danger for the sake of a fight. Even after his development, he would still make the same decisions Goku made.

[super michael]

Piccolo on the other hand never killed anyone, at least in the manga. He didn't use anyone as a shield and didn't fight dirty.

He destroyed Papaya Island. No way everyone got off safely. He also tried to murder Goku, and would've made good on his threat to kill everyone else if he had won.

I will check the manga later on, but I don't believe it was mentioned that anyone died. There is no denying Piccolo would have killed everyone, once he killed Goku.

Piccolo didn't use anyone as a hostage, like Piccolo Daimao. Against Piccolo Daimao, Goku had to get hit on purpose or Tenshinhan dies.

[tonysoprano300]

They aren't excuses. They are why the stories unfold the way they do. He's not acting out of character. He wants to be the best and unless something is concrete and right in front of his face, he is fine being reckless and not consider the consequences to innocent people. We still see him be upset when that happens in Super.

It's just now more blatantly obvious that mentality leads to bad consequences when the stakes are higher. However, the stakes are so comically high that I find it weird when anyone takes issue with it.

The flaws themselves aren’t ever addressed in a substantive way, Goku is never forced to genuinely consider how his selfish actions affect others and how who he is now is a departure from the implied teachings of Grampa Gohan/Muten Roshi(The turtle school). The former mass murderer in Vegeta is genuinely a better person than him at this point. TOP knocks on the door of it, Toppo would have been a fantastic main antagonist.

In BOG there was a moment where it was almost addressed, i forget the details but I think it was Piccolo(?) who questioned whether Goku would is pure enough anymore for the saiyan god ritual to work on him. That particular point never went anywhere but it was an interesting moment that gives us some insight as to how the Son Goku who was once the only one pure enough to ride Kinotun and defeat Spike The Devilman is now in a position where his friends question whether he is worthy of the saiyan god ritual.

There's no reason to. There are no lasting consequences. The Dragon Balls put things right every time.

No, Vegeta isn't a better person. He is just as culpable for all of it as Goku is, and worse. It's disingenuous to claim Vegeta wouldn't put people he cares about and strangers in danger for the sake of a fight. Even after his development, he would still make the same decisions Goku made.

You could make that same argument for a number of characters, saying because "Dragon Balls"(I believe Trunk's timeline was eviscerated because Goku forgot the seal to the Mafuba, but my guess is that we're doing the thing where things dont count because its another timeline) is very uninteresting to me and if that's what Super is commiting itself to then that's just not my cup of tea.

I disagree, I'm the opposite of a Vegeta defender but strictly within the context of Super Vegeta is by far the more pragmatic and ultruistic of the two

[ABED]

The flaws themselves aren’t ever addressed in a substantive way, Goku is never forced to genuinely consider how his selfish actions affect others and how who he is now is a departure from the implied teachings of Grampa Gohan/Muten Roshi(The turtle school). The former mass murderer in Vegeta is genuinely a better person than him at this point. TOP knocks on the door of it, Toppo would have been a fantastic main antagonist.

In BOG there was a moment where it was almost addressed, i forget the details but I think it was Piccolo(?) who questioned whether Goku would is pure enough anymore for the saiyan god ritual to work on him. That particular point never went anywhere but it was an interesting moment that gives us some insight as to how the Son Goku who was once the only one pure enough to ride Kinotun and defeat Spike The Devilman is now in a position where his friends question whether he is worthy of the saiyan god ritual.

There's no reason to. There are no lasting consequences. The Dragon Balls put things right every time.

No, Vegeta isn't a better person. He is just as culpable for all of it as Goku is, and worse. It's disingenuous to claim Vegeta wouldn't put people he cares about and strangers in danger for the sake of a fight. Even after his development, he would still make the same decisions Goku made.

You could make that same argument for a number of characters, saying because "Dragon Balls"(I believe Trunk's timeline was eviscerated because Goku forgot the seal to the Mafuba, but my guess is that we're doing the thing where things dont count because its another timeline) is very uninteresting to me and if that's what Super is commiting itself to then that's just not my cup of tea.

I disagree, I'm the opposite of a Vegeta defender but strictly within the context of Super Vegeta is by far the more pragmatic and ultruistic of the two

I would make that same argument and so would others bc DB is at this point put things right. If that's uninteresting to you, that's fine but it has been the case for decades. What lasting consequences are there? This started before Super.

How is Vegeta more pragmatic or "altruistic"? And how does any of that make up for what he's done such that he's a better person than Goku?

I don't buy that anyone cares about such ridiculously high stakes.

[Jord]

Super in general regressed it's characters. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any room for them to (re)grow again. Just look at Gohan losing his powers...again only for him to regain them. And the recent movie gave him a power up out of nowhere...again. You can point to Toyotaro, Toriyama or Toei, but whoever made decisions on story clearly had no idea what they were doing.