Continuity Conundrums: Daima and Super (Running Tracker)

[Cipher]

As of Episode 1, Daima has left...a lot of questions about its in-fiction relationship to Super. Ultimately it may be neither here nor there. It may just be Toriyama having played fast and loose with the fiction, or not recalling minor parts of the various versions of Super, or it may be its own new, alternate post-Boo arc material. Either way, it seems worth tracking until it becomes more clear.

1. Chronological Placement
Trunks is celebrating his ninth birthday in Daima Episode 1, which places it roughly a year after the Boo arc (in which he is eight). The Dragon Balls have recently been used and are still turned to stone, but whether that's the result of the wishes made within the Boo arc (to revive Majin Vegeta's victims), or afterward, to erase the populace's memories of Majin Boo, is unclear.

In comparison, working backwards from Pan's age in the manga epilogue and most official sources have placed Super's start/Battle of Gods in the neighborhood of four to five years after Boo*, and even that's a bit of a stretch, with Pan. Either way, ignoring Super's own chronological weirdness, Daima seems to unambiguously occur before any of any iteration of Super.

*Which makes Vegeta only just then rewarding Trunks with a trip to the amusement park in the second episode of TV Super in response to their Boo arc training preposterous

2. Kaioshin and Kibito's Fusion
Which brings us to our first real head-scratcher--Kaishion and Kibito are already defused as of the first episode of Daima, despite not splitting until after Beerus' arrival in any version of Super, including Battle of Gods.

The method for defusing Kaisohin and Kibito mention in Daima is also different from the one provided in both the Super manga and TV series: the Namekian Dragon Balls. In Daima, they've defused by requesting Boo break down their fusion in the same way he appears to have done for Vegetto.

I think the method has a bit more wiggle-room, as Toriyama didn't directly write either version of serialized Super himself, but the timing of their defusing does stand at odds with his own prior material, and at any rate it stands as a head-scratcher unless they're back together by the time Daima ends.

3. Potara Defusion Methods
Just noting this here as it's getting discussion. Super contends that Vegetto likely defused not due to Majin Boo, but due to an hour-long time limit any fusions not involving at least one Kaioshin will face. It adds further wiggle room to Vegetto's defusion timing by showing us his defusing after a matter of minutes in Super Saiyan Blue, due to his power output (which, while unspecified, could potentially mean his Boo arc fusion lasted less than a full hour as well).

I don't think any of this necessarily causes an issue, as it's all speculation in both series, and nothing is said concretely about Potaras' permanence otherwise in Daima. Nor does Super fully preclude the idea of Boo also being able to break down a Potara fusion. Finally in Super, the Universe 7 Kaioshin are all laboring under the idea that it's permament, with Gowasu of Universe 10 providing the correction. The real head-scratchers is when the Kaioshin and Kibito defuse, and the specific "how" vs. Super, rather than the "how" working in and of itself or any of the characters' understanding.

4. "Universe 7"
As Gomah, Degesu and Neva exit the Demon Realm, the guard-fish(?) asks them "which universe" they would like to visit, to which they answer "Seven." This numbering of course wouldn't come up until Super, so it's at least still using that element.

(This would also seem to imply that there's perhaps only one Demon Realm for the entire multiverse? Which seems contrary to what its brief mentions in the Boo arc might imply, but fair game.)

5. Namekians Coming from the Demon Realm/Neva's Dragon Balls
Namekians being native to neither Universe 6 nor 7 and being scattered across multiple planets even before the Great Cataclysm in the latter is first brought up in the Granolah arc of the Dragon Ball Super manga. It seems likely now that those details were added with Daima's revelations in mind. What this means for the two of them being in continuity is another matter, but it's a detail like the Universe 7 mention above that shows they're at least incorporating each other's unique lore, at this point.

Conversely, though, it's a little unclear what Neva creating the Demon Realm's Dragon Balls might mean for the Dragon Ball's origin with Zalama and the Super Dragon Balls provided in Super, in which the Universe 6/7 Namekians first crated them from shavings of the Super Dragon Balls. This doesn't preclude them having done so while living in the Demon Realm, or Neva having created his after others migrated and first encountered the Super Dragon Balls outside, but it does lead to more question marks, and feels rather Super-agnostic at this point.

--End for now

[Luso Saiyan]

It's my belief that Kaioshin and Kibito were already defused from the get go in Toriyama's outlines for Super when they appear from the Champa arc onwards and he left the explanation for that small detail for those in charge of adapting his stories. His appearance in Battle of Gods is so small that it might not even have come from him.

In Daima, since Kaioshin is central to the story, this seems to be Toriyama himself providing an explanation.

Or it could be that it was a detail so unimportant to him that he came up with another explanation that he liked better.

[nineko]

whether that's the result of the wishes made within the Boo arc (to revive Majin Vegeta's victims), or afterward, to erase the populace's memories of Majin Boo, is unclear.

Despite the wonky subtitles, it's almost definitely the latter.

[SupremeKai25]

I think that the Kibitoshin inconsistency is ultimately a rather irrelevant and minor thing. What does Kibitoshin even do until the Champa arc aside from making some comments in the Battle of Gods? He's really not important as a character so I'm not surprised that the writers forgot that he is still a thing until the Tournament of Destroyers.

It's also possible, if not very likely, that Shin and Kibito will fuse again to fight the demons.

The fact that they explicitly talk about a "Seventh Universe" is all the proof one needs to see that the writers are not ignoring Super.

They might retcon some of the things in Super, but clearly this series is meant to take place some time between the end of the Buu saga and the awakening of Lord Beerus.

You could say that it's a midquel within a midquel.

[Grimlock]

The Dragon Balls have recently been used and are still turned to stone, but whether that's the result of the wishes made within the Boo arc (to revive Majin Vegeta's victims), or afterward, to erase the populace's memories of Majin Boo, is unclear.

They revived those killed by Vegeta with Porunga. It's the latter. Although, if I remember correctly, one wish granted means they would have to wait three months. If the Dragon Balls were still stones, it can only mean that at least two wishes were made so that the "stone phase" of the Dragon Balls could be seen during the events of Dragon Ball Daima.

and even that's a bit of a stretch, with Pan.

Why is that?

[Cipher]

They revived those killed by Vegeta with Porunga. It's the latter. Although, if I remember correctly, one wish granted means they would have to wait three months. If the Dragon Balls were still stones, it can only mean that at least two wishes were made so that the "stone phase" of the Dragon Balls could be seen during the events of Dragon Ball Daima.

Porunga revives all those Boo later kills with his extinction attack. Shen-Long is used to restore Vegeta's victims, before being dismissed by Goku. After a shorter interval than the usual year, they use the Earth Dragon Balls again to erase everyone's memories of Boo.

and even that's a bit of a stretch, with Pan.

Why is that?

Pan is four years old at the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, and ten years pass during the timeskip. If Videl were pregnant in Battle of Gods, that would put it around five years after the Boo arc rather than four. Nine-month pregnancy+four birthdays for Pan. Though you can just barely make it work if Pan is going on five at the tournament.

[JulieYBM]

The memory of Majin Buu being evil is erased by the Dragon Balls six months after his defeat. The Majin Buu arc happens in the same month as the Tenka-ichi Budoukai, which is in May. This would place Dragon Ball DAIMA in November...which would then mean that Trunks was born in November! I doubt anyone on staff will ever realize or remember this, though.

I'm curious if the month that Gokuu and friends met Beers is ever mentioned anywhere? Actually, if we know what month that Blooma is born, we would then know when Beers wakes up and then be able to extrapolate Pan's birth month from that.

[Mr Baggins]

IIRC it was Champa that mentioned a Namekian Dragon Ball set was made from shavings of the Super Dragon Balls, and I find it unlikely he was talking about the Earth or Namekian sets we're familiar with. That idea never made a whole lot of sense to begin with.

It's my belief that Kaioshin and Kibito were already defused from the get go in Toriyama's outlines for Super when they appear from the Champa arc onwards and he left the explanation for that small detail for those in charge of adapting his stories.

I'm almost certain that's the case. I keep coming back to this key art for Battle of Gods where Shin isn't fused with Kibito at all, so Toriyama likely had them defused all along and just didn't catch that detail during production to course correct. It happens.

[MisteryOne]

It is quite interesting the Demon realm is apparently not one-per-universe. Quite weird all things considered, specially considering Daima's nature, so it's an amusing choice.

I think it's pretty clear they are still tying with Super. I find it funny people are still trying to make sense of the Kibitoshin thing by arguing "no they were always defused on his head". Guys. This is the same person who literally forgot the name Dragon Ball Super, and that's why we got the redundant Super Super Hero. He just didn't remember. He probably was told to make a story following the Buu arc, he wanted Kaioshin defused, and he forgot that already happens in Super. Toriyama was an amazing artist, but let's not pretend now he was super careful with continuity, he never was. Trying to make sense of every inconsistency Daima is going to create for BoG is not worth it.

IIRC it was Champa that mentioned a Namekian Dragon Ball set was made from shavings of the Super Dragon Balls, and I find it unlikely he was talking about the Earth or Namekian sets we're familiar with. That idea never made a whole lot of sense to begin with.

I don't see why not. Champa never showed any knowledge or interest in the Demon realm, not have we been told the Hakaishins can even move around freely that realm and the normal one. Namek must exist in Universe 6, name included, and he was able to tell right away Piccolo was a namekian, so he surely knows about the planet. Same as how he is even aware of how the wishes have limitations which he pointed out is not the case for the Super DBs. There was no contradiction on it.

It was a fine piece of lore on how they carved the first set to begin with or got the idea from, it just doesn't mesh well with what the Granolah arc and now Daima are implying of Namekians just apparently always coming up with sets on their own like in Cereal as well as not being natives of the twin universes.

[Luso Saiyan]

I find it funny people are still trying to make sense of the Kibitoshin thing by arguing "no they were always defused on his head". Guys. This is the same person who literally forgot the name Dragon Ball Super, and that's why we got the redundant Super Super Hero. He just didn't remember. He probably was told to make a story following the Buu arc, he wanted Kaioshin defused, and he forgot that already happens in Super. Toriyama was an amazing artist, but let's not pretend now he was super careful with continuity, he never was. Trying to make sense of every inconsistency Daima is going to create for BoG is not worth it.

I find it funny how people take clearly exaggerated, self-deprecating statements made first and foremost in a tongue-in-cheek manner as "evidence" of anything.

[MisteryOne]

I find it funny people are still trying to make sense of the Kibitoshin thing by arguing "no they were always defused on his head". Guys. This is the same person who literally forgot the name Dragon Ball Super, and that's why we got the redundant Super Super Hero. He just didn't remember. He probably was told to make a story following the Buu arc, he wanted Kaioshin defused, and he forgot that already happens in Super. Toriyama was an amazing artist, but let's not pretend now he was super careful with continuity, he never was. Trying to make sense of every inconsistency Daima is going to create for BoG is not worth it.

I find it funny how people take clearly exaggerated, self-deprecating statements made first and foremost in a tongue-in-cheek manner as "evidence" of anything.

Please show me how that statement is tongue-in-cheeck and how it doesn't say Toriyama forgot about the Super part as he said himself. And I didn't present it as evidence of anything. I'm just pointing out his forgetful nature which is nothing new. Not sure what you are trying tp archieve here.

If you really believe he didn't remember Super, but remembered when Kibitoshin (and in the manga, *how*) specifically defused...I don't know what to tell you.

[Mr Baggins]

I find it funny people are still trying to make sense of the Kibitoshin thing by arguing "no they were always defused on his head".

I think you're confused.

Nothing about that argument is even trying to "make sense of inconsistencies", nor is it suggesting Toriyama is as careful with his continuity as some diehard fan. In fact, it is directly acknowledging that there's an in-universe inconsistency. These things happen. I get it.

Maybe he did forget, but what you're postulating isn't all that fundamentally different unless you're splitting hairs for no reason. In either case, something wasn't caught in time and it resulted in a minor hiccup; end of.

I don't see why not.

Because Champa doesn't know about Earth's Dragon Balls. It's obvious that not all of them are derived from the Super Dragon Balls, at least directly. Nothing here is at odds with Daima or the manga.

[MisteryOne]

I find it funny people are still trying to make sense of the Kibitoshin thing by arguing "no they were always defused on his head".

I think you're confused.

Nothing about that argument is even trying to "make sense of inconsistencies", nor is it suggesting Toriyama is as careful with his continuity as some diehard fan. In fact, it is directly acknowledging that there's an in-universe inconsistency. These things happen. I get it.

Maybe he did forget, but what you're postulating isn't all that fundamentally different unless you're splitting hairs for no reason. In either case, something wasn't caught in time and it resulted in a minor hiccup; end of.

I don't see why not.

Because Champa doesn't know about Earth's Dragon Balls. It's obvious that not all of them are derived from the Super Dragon Balls, at least directly. Nothing here is at odds with Daima or the manga.

I'm just pointing out that trying to make sense of the inconsistencies this series is going to have towards Super as "for Toriyama it makes sense" is pretty pointless. If you know leaks, more things will happen that can't be applied that same logic. Seems way more likely to me that he forgot when Kibitoshin defused and how it happened, than pretending that he was completely unaware of said moments and only cared about his outline. As seen in the Granolah arc, he was actually pretty invested even in small details (that's why we know lore things like Zalama as early as the Champa arc). Call splitting hairs if you want, I just don't think that way of thinking is compatible with the content we will get in the future contradicting BoG. It's wasting energy.

Of course not all of them are derived from the Super DBs. That was not what was implied by Champa's comment. It was implied that Namekians got their first set from a Super DB. There is nothing contradictory there. He don't knowing about Earth's DBs is irrelevant as well. He has seen the U6 ones and that's enough to know about their nature.

[Rafa Fast]

I always forget that damn Toriyama art for Kami to Kami with the unfused Kaioshin
I'm starting to think that maybe we shouldn't use Kibitoshin to say that Daima is contradictory to Super, but let's wait and see, they might still fuse in the end, if they don't, there will be still a lot of others things to analyse, they can have the potential to contradict Super or enhance the connection with it.

Anyway, I don't think that there is just one (or 3) Makai for the entire multiverse, I believe that Gomah and the others can travel between the universe they want simply bedcause that's how things work for divine beings and "interdimensional" beings, they can do that.

Zamasu went from Universe 10 to Universe 7 with no problem as far as I remember, and he was a Kaioshin, though not a completely formed one, but I think it still counts (but I can't remember which was his method to travel between universes, can anyone tell it?)
Beerus and Whis went from Universe 7 to 6 by using the "Cube", a divine space ship.
Gomah and the others also had to use a ship, but they had to go through those fish and weird psychedelic scenery.

So all of them can do the same thing, just use different method, and Super implies that each universe have their own cosmos, with their own Kaios, Kaioshins, Hakaishins and Angels. Only Zeno and his place are said to be unique in the entire multiverse, so, with the exception of him, if the rest of the cosmos has a different version with different beings in each universe, then why wouldn't the Spirit World, Heaven, Hell and Makai all be different in each universe too?

[SupremeKai25]

I always forget that damn Toriyama art for Kami to Kami with the unfused Kaioshin
I'm starting to think that maybe we shouldn't use Kibitoshin to say that Daima is contradictory to Super, but let's wait and see, they might still fuse in the end, if they don't, there will be still a lot of others things to analyse, they can have the potential to contradict Super or enhance the connection with it.

Anyway, I don't think that there is just one (or 3) Makai for the entire multiverse, I believe that Gomah and the others can travel between the universe they want simply bedcause that's how things work for divine beings and "interdimensional" beings, they can do that.

Zamasu went from Universe 10 to Universe 7 with no problem as far as I remember, and he was a Kaioshin, though not a completely formed one, but I think it still counts (but I can't remember which was his method to travel between universes, can anyone tell it?)
Beerus and Whis went from Universe 7 to 6 by using the "Cube", a divine space ship.
Gomah and the others also had to use a ship, but they had to go through those fish and weird psychedelic scenery.

So all of them can do the same thing, just use different method, and Super implies that each universe have their own cosmos, with their own Kaios, Kaioshins, Hakaishins and Angels. Only Zeno and his place are said to be unique in the entire multiverse, so, with the exception of him, if the rest of the cosmos has a different version with different beings in each universe, then why wouldn't the Spirit World, Heaven, Hell and Makai all be different in each universe too?

The Kaioshin don't even have to travel anywhere, they possess a technique called Kai Kai which is instant teleportation on a level that eclipses Goku's and Whis' method of travel.

They even relied on Kaioshin, Whis included, to travel to Zeno's palace.

So Black and Zamasu could just instantly move around the universes with Kai Kai. In fact, that's probably how all Kaioshin travel around the universes (not that they ever need to leave their own universe under normal circumstances).

The demons quite clearly don't have a technique comparable to Kai Kai and instead have to rely on primtiive methods of travel like a spaceship.

[Luso Saiyan]

Please show me how that statement is tongue-in-cheeck and how it doesn't say Toriyama forgot about the Super part as he said himself. And I didn't present it as evidence of anything. I'm just pointing out his forgetful nature which is nothing new. Not sure what you are trying tp archieve here.

No, you're picking his obviously exaggerated self-deprecating statements regarding his memory as evidence of something, when the reality is that many things in Super didn't come from him and therefore he's under no obligation to not just remember them but to take them into consideration when writing his story.

And I think it's pretty obvious when taking things in context that he didn't forget Super, but that he forgot that Super was the branding being used for the movies at the time, including the story he just titled Super Hero.

If you really believe he didn't remember Super, but remembered when Kibitoshin (and in the manga, *how*) specifically defused...I don't know what to tell you.

Who said he remembered that? My argument is that those ideas didn't come from him to begin with.

Some of us presented very logical arguments which you quickly dismissed just because he forgot how the franchise was being branded when he picked the name for his new story.

[Mr Baggins]

Seems way more likely to me that he forgot when Kibitoshin defused and how it happened, than pretending that he was completely unaware of said moments and only cared about his outline.

Barring the fact that nobody here even suggested he was never aware of those moments, these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

Toriyama tended to ignore or forget the things he didn't come up with himself. That ain't a likelihood, it's factual precedent. Yes, he was invested in the small details – his small details.

He don't knowing about Earth's DBs is irrelevant as well.

Not only is that relevant, it's the crux of what's being said, my guy.

Champa only knew that a group of Namekians (presumably in his own universe) attempted to replicate the Super Dragon Balls. He doesn't know whether the other sets were derived from that, though it's what he assumes the moment he's informed that there are other Dragon Balls in Universe 7.

Therefore, there's plenty of room for Universe 7's Dragon Balls to have a completely different origin than whatever Champa was hypothesizing. It's not rocket science.

Alternatively, everything was derived from the Super Dragon Balls as presumed and Neva just created his set at a later time. It's impossible to say.

[Grimlock]

Porunga revives all those Boo later kills with his extinction attack. Shen-Long is used to restore Vegeta's victims, before being dismissed by Goku. After a shorter interval than the usual year, they use the Earth Dragon Balls again to erase everyone's memories of Boo.

Oh right, there's that time. Still, the point stands. As only one wish was granted at that time, the Dragon Balls required four months to recharge. Those six months waiting cover it so that they can grant the wish to erase people's memories (and probably other wishes). So in this scenario, we are led to assume that the Dragon Balls are stones because at least two wishes were made. I imagine that when two wishes are granted, the time to recharge is eight months, if one wish is four months and three wishes is one year. Which I guess it's enough of a gap for the year to change to AGE 775, depending on some other factors.

Though you can just barely make it work if Pan is going on five at the tournament.

Which I'm sure this is what we are supposed to do (and the only way, as far as I can see) to fix this, right?

[Trouser]

4. "Universe 7"
As Gomah, Degesu and Neva exit the Demon Realm, the guard-fish(?) asks them "which universe" they would like to visit, to which they answer "Seven." This numbering of course wouldn't come up until Super, so it's at least still using that element.

(This would also seem to imply that there's perhaps only one Demon Realm for the entire multiverse? Which seems contrary to what its brief mentions in the Boo arc might imply, but fair game.)

It was first used in the Battle of Gods movie, way before Super.

[Magnificent Ponta]

On Point 4, I think it's probably the latest Macro-Expansion in Dragon World.

We already had several in the revival era - the Core planet where Shin-jin are from, God of Destruction Planets, 12 Universes, "Neutral Space" between Universes, Zeno-Sama's Palace, the World of Void, and a more general "Angel Realm" in which a lot of the new Godly stuff seems to sit. A "Dragon World"-wide Demon Realm seems to be a fairly straightforward counterpart to a "Dragon World"-wide Angel Realm, sitting either side of the Mortal Realm where most of the action happens.

It's possible the bits of each Universe previously set aside as the "Demon Realm" may be either toeholds the Demon Realm has in the Mortal Realm, or else (and perhaps more likely) conduits through which Warp-Fish-facilitated traffic between the two realms can proceed.

For fun, I tried my hand at sketching out a speculative map of Dragon World that tries to incorporate all the new places in a model that looks like the original one Toriyama made for the main Dragon Ball Universe. This is a guess in places and will probably age horribly overall, but it was fun to try out (click on thumbnail for full image):