Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

He matches/beats SS2 Goku because Goku is clearly not any stronger than he was in the Buu arc in the same forms by the time of the anime ToP. This retcon kicked in around the time he was matched by a Trunks who struggled with Dabra and was fully solidified with his fights in the ToP. In the manga, of course, there never had to be a retcon.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Putting aside the literal months he trains with Whis and the 3 years he trains with Vegeta in the RoSaT, we have this fight just before the ToP:



And this is a stronger Boo.

I don't think you're supposed to believe that he did a bunch of training and then had a huge dramatic power up to explicitly his Buu arc level, and then trained/fought for just a few days/minutes off-screen and suddenly dwarfed all the gains from said power-up and rendered the level he was striving for completely irrelevant. That isn't how narratives work.

Well, that's exactly what happens. Even Piccolo confirms it in the manga.

[Almighty Majin]

Yeah, Goku did not train all those months with Whis just to remain Buu arc level, that's ridiculous lol. Exactly how much stronger he got after Whis' training is debatable, but he certainly did get stronger to some significant extent.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Putting aside the literal months he trains with Whis and the 3 years he trains with Vegeta in the RoSaT, we have this fight just before the ToP:
And this is a stronger Boo.

It's a friendly sparring match (and again, base Saiyans doing improbably well against people as strong as their Super Saiyan forms is the most common thing in animated Dragon Ball). At the actual tournament he has trouble with a guy Buu beat easily, as a Super Saiyan.

Well, that's exactly what happens. Even Piccolo confirms it in the manga.

No, it isn't. Piccolo just says he became nebulously stronger partway through the fight. He didn't say his mid-fight boost dwarfed the difference between his pre-training and post-training selves. The latter was obviously the more significant jump.

[dbgtFO]

It seems that the "Goku is the strongest in the universe" line doesn't specifically mention strength in japanese?
Panzy asks if he's supposed to be 'sugoi' which just means great/awesome and then Shin affirms he's the most of that in the universe.
Granted I don't know exactly what Shin said, all I can hear is uchuu(universe), so who knows maybe there's another word for strong/strongest in his line. It just isn't the usual tsuyoi(strong).

[DBZ Macky]

Daima is so similar to GT, they are even copying the power scaling of Goku being the undisputed strongester than the strongestest with him being able to overpower threats above the level of the strongest Gods while only using one hand in his weakest form

base Saiyans doing improbably well against people as strong as their Super Saiyan forms is the most common thing in animated Dragon Ball

This is basically how I see it. Don't you guys remember Base Goku VS Hit, Base Goku VS Ikari Broly in the movie, etc? He was also fighting evenly with SS Caulifla in his Base who he was earlier fighting as a Super Saiyan himself. If I recall correctly, it's explicitly mentioned that he can hold his own against her because he's more skilled. It makes sense why he'd be able to hold his own against the likes of Glorio and Shin, the former of which doesn't understand what Ki is and the latter is someone who barely ever fights.

By the way, who is the strongest character Base Goku has actually defeated? Burter?

[Piramid]

Also add that Shin’s physical limitations are evident. He couldn’t lift the Z Sword with his own hands, suggesting that his raw strength is significantly lower than fighters like Goku or even Gohan during the Boo arc.

What? When does that happen?

Lastly, we could consider that Shin’s comment may reflect the general reputation of Kaioshins rather than his personal capabilities, particularly since he has been portrayed as less powerful than expected for his role in the hierarchy of gods.

That’s not true, Kaioshin says that each of the Kaioshin could defeat Freeza with a single blow. What you’re saying is just your headcanon.

[Piramid]

It seems that the "Goku is the strongest in the universe" line doesn't specifically mention strength in japanese?
Panzy asks if he's supposed to be 'sugoi' which just means great/awesome and then Shin affirms he's the most of that in the universe.
Granted I don't know exactly what Shin said, all I can hear is uchuu(universe), so who knows maybe there's another word for strong/strongest in his line. It just isn't the usual tsuyoi(strong).

The narrator uses the word "saikyō", which literally means "the strongest" or "the most powerful."

[LightBing]

So people believe the nameless soldiers of episode 5 could solo all of Dragon Ball until Cell? Just to clear thing up...

[ZombieVito]

At the actual tournament he has trouble with a guy Buu beat easily, as a Super Saiyan.

This never happens. They have trouble in base because of being overwhelmed by numbers but immediately start one shotting people when they turned Super Saiyan. The Trio de Danger are hopeless against them until they charge their ultimate attack. They can't even hit them once.

No, it isn't. Piccolo just says he became nebulously stronger partway through the fight. He didn't say his mid-fight boost dwarfed the difference between his pre-training and post-training selves. The latter was obviously the more significant jump.

Gohan only got his battle sense back training with Piccolo. He has exactly the same power he had back in the Boo arc (Same thing happens in the anime) before his fight with Kefla which shoots him up to CSSB levels.

This is basically how I see it. Don't you guys remember Base Goku VS Hit, Base Goku VS Ikari Broly in the movie, etc? He was also fighting evenly with SS Caulifla in his Base who he was earlier fighting as a Super Saiyan himself. If I recall correctly, it's explicitly mentioned that he can hold his own against her because he's more skilled. It makes sense why he'd be able to hold his own against the likes of Glorio and Shin, the former of which doesn't understand what Ki is and the latter is someone who barely ever fights.

The problem with this is that even before their fight, Goku deems Glorio inferior to his base form and this is after Glorio > Shin was mentioned. Even after saying Glorio was better than he though, base Goku still outperforms him.

Unless Shin outperforms base Goku later on. I just don't see how Namek Freeza > Base Goku can survive this episode unfortunately.

[dragonball0900]

Thinking about it, Shin being weaker than Base Goku in the Buu Arc also supports how Goku didn't really increase his base strength as much in DBS (ToP arc) compared to DBZ, at least in the manga. Remember in that Exhibition Tournament that Shin and the other Supreme Kais couldn't resist Rumsshi's roar compared to Base Goku.

Now that Daima confirms Shin was weaker than Base Goku as well in the Buu Saga, then it clearly shows that DBS Goku up until the ToP/Broly arcs (at least in the manga definitely) was never meant to be that far above his DBZ self, and it also shows in the Future Trunks Saga that they still used SSJ2 Kid Gohan as a reference when SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Future Trunks (without powering up to around SSJ3 level yet) were fighting.

[ZombieVito]

Goku and Vegeta literally train with Whis for months and for 3 years in the RoSaT.

Them not being a lot stronger than their Boo arc selfs is nonsense.

[Grimlock]

The Kado entry notably emphasizes them being “roughly comparable to the Ginyu Force in Namek arc” rather than making a direct link to Freeza’s power level as stated in the OVA. This reinterpretation weakens the argument that their strength is directly tied to Freeza’s peak power in Namek.

Since when lack of evidence is evidence? Just because that entry only said something about Ginyu, does it now mean that "oh, so now what was stated in the OVA is invalid"? The entry merely stated the exact same thing that was said in the OVA "at that time, they were comparable to Ginyu Forces", so you are purposely ignoring the time gap (once again) and that it was said that they got stronger (to Freeza level). They didn't even say "in the present day, they are comparable to suppressed Freeza", they said that they had power levels roughly the same at that time ("当時はギニュー特戦隊と肩を並べていたという強者だ。"). Are you sure you aren't the one "shifting" the "reinterpretation"?

So it’s not that we’re saying base Goku is weaker than base Goten, it’s that the context around Abo and Kado’s strength remains open to interpretation, especially with newer sources adjusting earlier assumptions.

I see. So it doesn't matter the fact that Goten and Trunks are actually stronger than Abo and Cado, what matters is the "reinterpretation, newer sources adjusting earlier assumptions", is that right? We see how base Goten and Trunks perform against someone on Freeza's level, but because someone "said" that Goku still cannot defeat Freeza, that somehow means that we must ignore their performances, is that it?

[dragonball0900]

Goku and Vegeta literally train with Whis for months and for 3 years in the RoSaT.

Them not being a lot stronger than their Boo arc selfs is nonsense.

Nah they were already approaching their limits, Vegeta said that himself in the U6 arc before going to the RoSaT, and Goku also said the same in the Cell arc. Training in the RoSaT wouldn't benefit them anymore other than just suffering the harsh conditions inside, hence why Goku refused to enter at the time. The only advantage of them training in the RoSaT for 3 years in the U6 arc is that they train for 3 years compared to only 3 days outside.

It's also unknown how much of a boost Whis' training gave them, but judging by everything seen in the DBS manga, it didn't seem like they boosted their base strength considerably prior to the Moro Saga.

[Yuji]

Again, I'm not sure why we're still on this base Saiyans/Shin/Freeza conversation when it's been made abundantly clear that they've all gotten at least a little bit weaker -- and everything points toward that little bit being a lot.

[RandomGuy96]

This never happens. They have trouble in base because of being overwhelmed by numbers but immediately start one shotting people when they turned Super Saiyan. The Trio de Danger are hopeless against them until they charge their ultimate attack. They can't even hit them once.

They get overwhelmed in their base forms and fight for a bit in Super Saiyan without instantly winning, and struggle with their blast. Nothing in this scene actually makes sense if base Goku is stronger than the Buu who no-diff'd a roided out version of one of these guys. It's literally just Toei Base Saiyans doing improbably well as they always have.

Gohan only got his battle sense back training with Piccolo. He has exactly the same power he had back in the Boo arc (Same thing happens in the anime) before his fight with Kefla which shoots him up to CSSB levels.

Nothing says his battle power massively shot up during his fight Kafla. No one but Piccolo even notices a change and no one exposits "woah, he got a hundred times stronger in less than a minute!" as they would if this were the case. The narrative is clear: regaining his Buu arc power is what put him at that level. The rest is icing. Ultimate Gohan is SSB-tier.

But even ignoring all that: even before he fights Kafla, Gohan's already strong enough to deflect a blast from her meant to kill Jiren.

The problem with this is that even before their fight, Goku deems Glorio inferior to his base form and this is after Glorio > Shin was mentioned. Even after saying Glorio was better than he though, base Goku still outperforms him.
Unless Shin outperforms base Goku later on. I just don't see how Namek Freeza > Base Goku can survive this episode unfortunately.

They have a light spar for like twenty seconds (Shin even says Glorio isn't fighting seriously, and he doesn't concede until Goku transforms). Base Goku also outperformed Super Saiyan God/Blue Vegeta against both Broly and Hit (base Goku also outperformed SS Vegeta against OG Broly, incidentally, hitting him hard enough to draw blood). Base Goku in Buu arc filler was more or less even with the fake Ultimate Gohan who he explicitly stated was as strong as the real one. Then he turned SS2 and lost to Super Buu. On that note, SS2 Goku then has an even fight with Pure Buu, who he specifically says is stronger than Super Buu as he is (which wasn't in the manga). So on and so forth.

You're viewing this like it's Toriyama's manga, which is a mistake here as much as it was in Super. Toriyama didn't write any of the granular parts of the fight scenes even in the films, and he wrote the scripts for those himself. Daima, by all indications, is much closer to Super than it is to something like Battle of Gods in terms of Toriyama's role - he's surely not writing fight choreography down to the exact power statements and forms. So it must be analyzed in terms of Toei's works. And in Toeiland, Super Saiyan is sometimes barely a boost, and sometimes people can fight evenly with guys ostensibly fifty times stronger than them. It just happens.

[ZombieVito]

They get overwhelmed in their base forms and fight for a bit in Super Saiyan without instantly winning, and struggle with their blast. Nothing in this scene actually makes sense if base Goku is stronger than the Buu who no-diff'd a roided out version of one of these guys. It's literally just Toei Base Saiyans doing improbably well as they always have.

They do one shot them all with the exception of Hyssop (Who can just have good durability like his manga version) and the Trio de Danger which can be just to make the fight have a proper climax since they are the main fighters of that universe. The fact is that no one from U9 touched them once they turned SS.

Nothing says his battle power massively shot up during his fight Kafla. No one but Piccolo even notices a change and no one exposits "woah, he got a hundred times stronger in less than a minute!" as they would if this were the case. The narrative is clear: regaining his Buu arc power is what put him at that level. The rest is icing. Ultimate Gohan is SSB-tier.

But even ignoring all that: even before he fights Kafla, Gohan's already strong enough to deflect a blast from her meant to kill Jiren.

I'm sorry but no. Piccolo is very clear, Gohan grew stronger than ever during his fight with Kefla.

They have a light spar for like twenty seconds (Shin even says Glorio isn't fighting seriously, and he doesn't concede until Goku transforms). Base Goku also outperformed Super Saiyan God/Blue Vegeta against both Broly and Hit (base Goku also outperformed SS Vegeta against OG Broly, incidentally, hitting him hard enough to draw blood). Base Goku in Buu arc filler was more or less even with the fake Ultimate Gohan who he explicitly stated was as strong as the real one. Then he turned SS2 and lost to Super Buu. On that note, SS2 Goku then has an even fight with Pure Buu, who he specifically says is stronger than Super Buu as he is (which wasn't in the manga). So on and so forth.

You're viewing this like it's Toriyama's manga, which is a mistake here as much as it was in Super. Toriyama didn't write any of the granular parts of the fight scenes even in the films, and he wrote the scripts for those himself. Daima, by all indications, is much closer to Super than it is to something like Battle of Gods in terms of Toriyama's role - he's surely not writing fight choreography down to the exact power statements and forms. So it must be analyzed in terms of Toei's works. And in Toeiland, Super Saiyan is sometimes barely a boost, and sometimes people can fight evenly with guys ostensibly fifty times stronger than them. It just happens.

Goku clearly outperforms someone stronger than Shin with just his base form. It's clear as day who is stronger in the episode.

[DBZ Macky]

What are the arguments for Base Goku NOT being stronger than Shin (And by extension, Piccolo and Freeza) other than the Toricat's statement about Goku being unable to defeat Freeza without transforming?

The only other thing that supports the notion is El Manga Legendario with its debatable "canonicity" stating that Kaioshin is about as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games (If I recall correctly).

[LightBing]

What are the arguments for Base Goku NOT being stronger than Shin (And by extension, Piccolo and Freeza) other than the Toricat's statement about Goku being unable to defeat Freeza without transforming?

The only other thing that supports the notion is El Manga Legendario with its debatable "canonicity" stating that Kaioshin is about as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games (If I recall correctly).

The plot of the Android/Cell arc.

The characters development is based on SSJ. Although Base power multiplies to SSJ, the story doesn't present that as a solution to defeat the opponents of the arc.

If all of a sudden, the characters got that much stronger it invalidates all of that. With how relevant SSJ2 Gohan still is in the Boo arc, the progression is still mostly based on transformations.
Vegeta and Goku SSJ2 and the latter SSJ3.

The biggest proof is lack of it. Base Saiyans have no feats to justify such thoughts.

There's stuff like Piccolo being above Trunks and Goten inside Boo. Although they aren't as strong as their parents, they should still pretty great and used to justify this.
I believe they also needed to go SSJ against #18, can't remember that well.

While I understand everyone's logic in regards to Daima. The presentation in Daima just felt poor, even if there's justifications there. They say Glorio is holding back and Goku does indeed need SSJ to defeat him.

Characters can reveal more of themselves even while not fighting at full power. The same way Glorio didn't needed SSJ level to defeat that flying fish, Goku could still ascertain his level.
He should still be talking about that evaluation because the story goes out of the way to say he's holding back.
Shin also doesn't seem that surprised, if Glorio is that much stronger.

My two cents.

[Piramid]

Nobody could gauge Kaioshin's power, so Piccolo refused to fight him purely out of suspicion that he was an important figure. That’s why he told Goku that Kaioshin was indeed very powerful when asked, to avoid giving explanations and to keep Kaioshin’s possible identity a secret, especially since he hadn’t confirmed it yet.

But in reality, Piccolo had no way of knowing his power. That’s why I think it’s fine to keep believing that Piccolo is much stronger than Kaioshin. I guess Daima will clear things up since Piccolo is set to appear more in future episodes.

Characters can reveal more of themselves even while not fighting at full power. The same way Glorio didn't needed SSJ level to defeat that flying fish, Goku could still ascertain his level.
He should still be talking about that evaluation because the story goes out of the way to say he's holding back.
Shin also doesn't seem that surprised, if Glorio is that much stronger.

Goku initially says that Glorio is stronger than Kaioshin. Later, he says that Glorio is even more powerful than he thought. There’s no doubt about it, Glorio is stronger than Kaioshin.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku being called the strongest (something the narrator also said in an earlier episode iirc) puzzles me. I don't think we can ignore all the circumstancial evidence of Goku > Gohan anymore... This is very soon after the Boo Saga, how much power could Gohan have lost really?

If SSJ3 Goku surpassed Ultimate Gohan then that makes some power implications really messy. Like, the comparison between Future Trunks and CG Gohan is redundant because SSJ2 Trunks (Not FP) > SSJ2 Gotenks >>> SSJ2 Kid Gohan. Though I'm not sure what Goku should've said if Trunks were >>> Gohan...